634 replies to this topic

[Closet Skeleton]

 

5) What exactly are deathguard supposed to be? We have a short range aura giving -1T to a maximum of 12" range, but out legion trait benefits us from being more than 12" away. We have a rule that allows us to ignore penatlies for charging but then no actuall way to decrease charge range, so once again, terminators become a thing of "can you roll a 9+" so will be amazing in 1 out of 3 games and total the rest of the time. And finally our daemon engines ignore the pently for firing heavy weapons into combat but the blight drone ignores it anyway, and the PBC is armed with a blast weapon and then either 2 lascannons or heavy flamers. One ignores the penatly anyway and the other is not much use.

8) And finally, why is it, that all the new codex's (especially SM) have rules applied to their whole army, but once again, a rhino etc does not get DG!!!!!! Why is a iron hands dread/rhino more survivable than a DG one? Why am I paying CP to once again give a unit something they should already have?

 

Inexorable advance lets you keep long range benefits while moving, it doesn't benefit you to keep distance, it takes away the normal space marine trade off between moving or staying still.

 

Blight Lords are durable enough to drop down and charge the next turn, they're not Blood Angels who have to get into combat as a form of defence.

 

Iron Hands are a vehicle faction, Death Guard have always been an infantry faction in the background. That's just the rules following the fluff. There's never been anything in the Nurgle background that says 'makes machines harder to kill'.

 

 

It is difficult for me to understand how anyone could look at this book and not see how DG would deal with the Custodes of all factions. They're the hardest counter to the boys in gold that I've ever seen. All of the 2 damage master crafted shots will wound on 5+ and have their damage halved, and the entire Custodes faction has access to like 4 melee weapons that aren't damage d3, with 3 of them being on dreads. DG has the -1 toughness aura and plenty of ways to increase str to 5 or higher, good access to wound rolls, good access to just the right amount of AP to get them on their invulns without wasting any, and on top of all that plentiful access to mortal wounds outside of the psychic phase.

 

I know that's just one aspect of the argument, but someone who would choose to use Custodes Bikers as an example of a unit DG would struggle with makes me honestly curious if we're reading the same book, and if we have the same fundamental understanding of the game.

 

In my 8th ed tournament experience Custodes were one of the few factons my unoptimised army always crushed. I never managed to beat vehicle heavy Custodes but never fought that with Death Guard. Most miserable experiance any of my opponents ever had was a Custodes player who failed to alpha-strike Mortarion and had to concede on turn 3.

 

Custodes Bikers are a joke, you just throw a rhino in front of your army and their charge is competely blunted, then you can counter-attack with mortal wounds and high strength -2 AP attacks. Massed hyper accurate S4 ap0 isn't scary to plague marines.

Edited by Closet Skeleton, 17 January 2021 - 09:20 AM.

[Marshal Loss]

How many can a single unit take now? 

Plague Marines are capped at 10 strong now

[templarphoenix]

So if I run a squad of plague marine of 10 before, then I am not affect by the new weapons arming system at all?

[Putrid Choir]

So if I run a squad of plague marine of 10 before, then I am not affect by the new weapons arming system at all?

Only if you wanted to spam double plague knives

[Heretic]

DG nerfed to the grave. Just cry of my heart. 

[Azekai]

All the old crazy stuff is garbage (defilers, blight bombardment) or illegal, but blightlords and Morty are kind of nuts. Melee Drones seem to be glass-cannon nightmares. Plague marines got a lot of sidegrades and changes but I strongly doubt they are better. There are some strong options in this army. That is not my complaint.

My main gripe about this book is that it is too different, it turns the faction on its ear. The design philosophy of 9th is at odds with the relative simplicity of 8th. I feel like GW is a dog returning to its vomit, with 9th feeling like the worst parts of 7th Ed. Lots of kludge, lots of weird layers of factions rules, traits and unit abilities.

I intensely dislike having my army composition dictated to me, especially as part of a chaos faction. My madmen and mutants have to have carefully tabulated ratios of marines to zombies? Give me a break.

and people saying ‘limits on poxwalkers is fluffy’ are just plain wrong. If a planet is in the late stage throes of a Death Guard invasion, how many millions may be walking dead? I doubt people would spam poxwalkers anyway (they can’t take actions) but gw going so far out of their way as to hardcode limits into the rules of the faction feels patronizing and insulting. I want to field what I want in my army, not what Gw thinks my army should look like.

Edited by Azekai, 17 January 2021 - 06:41 PM.

[Bulwyf]

I like some of the changes in this codex and absolutely hate some of the others.

 

I will never see how losing 5++ FNP for -1 to damage is anything other than a nerf. The demon engines losing even the crappy version of DR is terrible. Most importantly to me are the arbitrary restrictions being placed in the codex.

 

I don't like sorcs or pure psykers. Now we literally have to take one in a battalion detachment. The decision to limit DP to one per detachment as well as making them count as a lord of chaos means you can't a DP and Typhus or a LoC or anything else. Your only option is a sorc. I always ran my DG with either DP and Typhus or LoC or two DP. It wasn't chasing meta. It was simply my fluff and lore for my army.

 

Now I have no choice but to take a freaking sorc. It is a frankly idiotic decision that unfairly restricts player choice. We aren't a faction like CSM that has a dozen or more HQ choices that we can something else to take. You LITERALLY have to take a sorc. Unless you want to lose CP for no reason by taking several detachments...which no one with a brain would do.

 

The limits on weapon choices for PM and Blightlords is also terrible. I ran my PM with two plasma plus one on the champ. My blightlords were all axe/combi plasma with one guy with a flail. Now that is entirely illegal. You can only take one special weapon and can't have more than one of that in a squad. It is a frankly idiotic decision to make. Again player choice is being thrown away for....what exactly? 

 

I wasn't a huge poxwalker fan but now you are limited on how many of them you can take. Same with cultists. These arbitrary decisions make no sense. If someone wants to run a zombie horde that's their choice. Now they have no choice to do that. 

[Putrid Choir]

I will say they did take the best from the old codex and nerfed it and brought the bad stuff up to par. Not a fan of their solution to the bits/wargear problem. People complained to GW about how the box does not have all the bits for possible loadouts and people have to go to bit stores and 3rd party to find them. Instead of GW changing what's in the box or selling a separate wargear sprue, they pull a classic GW, and went with the cheapest solution that poop on their players. Now you can only use what's in the box! Not a fan, it's most likely going to roll out to every faction.

Other than that, the DR nerf and the limit on chaos lords, I'm happy. If a Daemon prince is counting as a lord of chaos, he should get 4++ though...

I will say though 9th is taking off in a rules bloat already. I just wanted a redone army wide trait and a mono bonus (like -1T), and they did a whole lot more.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 18 January 2021 - 07:11 AM.

[Umbros]

DG nerfed to the grave. Just cry of my heart. 

 

This is an insane take. They are going to be incredible, especially the meat and potatoes of the army.

[Crix]

I will say that it’s suspicious that we all must take a plaguecaster, and the only easy way to actually buy one now is to purchase two other models with it at higher cost.

(Ian Malcolm chaos voice) uh, THATS Games Workshop.

[Sarges]

I will say that it’s suspicious that we all must take a plaguecaster, and the only easy way to actually buy one now is to purchase two other models with it at higher cost.

(Ian Malcolm chaos voice) uh, THATS Games Workshop.

AND they're webstore exclusive. 4D chess right here (DP problem will probably be faq'ed though).

[Marshal Loss]

What do people think about throwing the Reaper of Glorious Entropy on a Deathshroud Champion?

[Iron Sage]

What do people think about throwing the Reaper of Glorious Entropy on a Deathshroud Champion?

I think it in many cases will be good and really worth it. But unless you are starved for points, (which unfortunately one often is) you could also save a Relic slot or a CP and buy a Pathogen upgrade, since this would make Cleave hit on STR 8 without the Contagion included in the equation, while the Scythe would hit at STR 6, again not taking into account the -1 T Contagion. So sure, you would get a lot fewer attacks on the scythe and mortal wounds and it is worse in every way, but still pretty good on a Death Shroud champion if you have points to spare I reckon. Acidic Malady (1 extra AP, good on the multiple attack profile), the mortal wounds on Unstable Sickness (max only 3 though) , Virulent Fever (MW's on 6s to wound) are all decent on such a high attack profile.

So if you have extra points to spare, you can make those Death Shroud champions into Kill Botz with Pathogens alone.

 

But yeah, the Relic is much better against tough targets for sure. More reliable than the Mortal Wounds on the Pathogen since those are on 6+ and he does not lose WS for using Cleave. Costs a Relic slot, but since the champion has 5 attacks and 2+ WS it is nice to use Cleave with full WS.

 

However I would like to note the combination of Lord of the Death Guard to give +1 to hit to Death Guard Core, the pathogen Virulent Fever for Mortal Wounds on 6s to Wound and +STR for 20 points, will mean that he still can use Cleave on 2+. However on a scythe, that's 10 attacks STR 6, then add Contagion, with a higher chance of getting Mortal Wounds. You will probably often get a 1-3 MW from the Scything profile with 10 attacks I reckon, while the Relic only has half the chance of generating a MW.

 

But yeah, Death Shroud champion is a rare unit champion in that he is probably worth upgrading most of the time. Simply an incredibly strong profile and those tend to be worth boosting if you can.

Edited by Iron Sage, 18 January 2021 - 04:58 PM.

[MCB82]

I understand a lot of the frustration around army building restrictions.  Being able to cut up and convert models to create a custom character is one of the joys of the game,  It is unfortunate see rules that limit that part of the Hobby.

 

But it is not all doom and gloom.  

 

Fielding an Army with a DP and a Lord is 100% still Legal.  You just have to pay 2 CP for the 2nd detachment.  Does that cost suck.  Sure.  Can I live with it. Yes. Our Characters can be quite strong so while I don't like having to pay for the extra detachment, it can still be a worthy CP expenditure.  Plus, give it time, the wording on the limits to DG Lords and DPs does make it seem like at one point the DP did not have the Lord of the Death Guard keyword, so this might receive a FAQ, or get changed once sales start to slip.  

 

As for PM unit construction.  Yes you cannot take 2 Blight Launchers (or 3 Plasmaguns) in a squad of 5.  But you Can take 2 plasmaguns and 1 blight launcher in 5.  Yes its a limit on Options but the overall offensive output is not so significant that anyone should panic. 

 

PM melee options are a bit more tough to swallow, and I feel for anyone who spent the money to build a 20 man unit with axes and knives.  After 3 years of having this option it would be nice to see it at least relegated to LEGEND status so those who built it can still use it. 

 

As for melee build options, in a Unit of 10 PMs you can still take 2 Flails, 2 Cleavers, 4 axes (if you pay for 2 maces) and 2 double knives.  So while your 20 man squad has become 2 10 man squads, you've gained 2 Flails, 4 Great Cleavers, 1 Champion and lost 9 axes or (assuming the 20 man was 1 champion, 2 flails & 17 axes/double knives).  Yes that hurts if you Built the 20 man blob with Double Knives and axes, but from a game play perspective, you still have potent options to make a strong melee unit.  And if you don't want to pull arms of your painted models, I'm sure most opponents won't have an issue proxying boltguns on to a marine with 2 knives, or designated some axes as Great Plague Cleavers.

 

In my limited 9th experience (damn Covid) I had very good success killing space marines with a 7 man unit consisting of Champion with a PF & PP, 2 Flails, 2 Axes, 1 blight launcher and 1 double knife with Icon of Despair.  Perhaps that is not an "optimal" build but it proved very effective for me, especially when Blades was cast.  Moving forward, the same unit will lose a flail, but gain a Great Plague Cleaver for similar points.  I'm excited to see how this performs.

 

My only real complaint is losing the ability to take an icon of despair on a model without a boltgun, but only because GW just released a model with that load out in space marine heroes 3.  I don't think its a big deal, but as the model exists they should have left the option available, especially given the other limitations placed due to model availability.

[angrom]

Soo are loosing anything when taking 2 detachements with 2 plague companies ?
I mean beside the cp cost and the fact that detachement won't have synergy with one onother for auras?
But we still keep contagion anf access to all our rules?

[CastellanDeMolay]

I have two 7-man Plague Marine squads, one with triple Plasma and one with two Blight Launchers. From the sounds of it, I can still run the same models, but a Plasma Gun and a Blight Launcher need to trade places for it to be rules legal. 

 

"Brother Venomgurgler, I need you to trade places with brother Poopreviewpartaker in squad Anal Fistula."

"Ok, but why?"

"The rules which say what weapons we can have in a squad have changed, and now we can only have one Plasma Gun and one Blight Launcher per 5 Plague Marines."

"That doesn't really make sense, but I guess if it's the rules..."

[McElMcNinja]

I think you can only have 1 BL (and Plague Spewer) in the first 5 and a second BL or Spewer if you have 10. 1 Plasma (not including Champion’s weapon) in the first 5 and a second Plasma if you have 10.
A unit of 7 models (not including Champion’s weapon) is 1 Plasma and 1 BL (and 1 Spewer).

Edited by McElMcNinja, 19 January 2021 - 12:15 AM.

[Plague _Lord]

I'm sorry I think I failed to see the part where our vechicles don't get the -1 dmg our infantry does... Is this true?

 

This means MBH are useless and my PBC are much worse. I allways went spewers so the +1bs give me nothing. The only thing that made the good was their toughness. Now they can't get up close because any assault infantry will just destroy them.

 

My Landraider is in even worse condition. Contaminated monstrosity made it playable and really tough. Now it's back to the shelf.

 

Defiler still looks good though (the boost to BS and WS helps  it the most).

[Putrid Choir]

I'm sorry I think I failed to see the part where our vechicles don't get the -1 dmg our infantry does... Is this true?

This means MBH are useless and my PBC are much worse. I allways went spewers so the +1bs give me nothing. The only thing that made the good was their toughness. Now they can't get up close because any assault infantry will just destroy them.

My Landraider is in even worse condition. Contaminated monstrosity made it playable and really tough. Now it's back to the shelf.

Defiler still looks good though (the boost to BS and WS helps it the most).

The -1 to damage is from disgustingly resilient, not from some infantry rule. So PBC, drones and haulers have it. Helbrutes have the dreadnaught version. Defilers, landraiders, rhinos and Predators do not have DR and have no way of getting it now.

I use two spitter drones, and they dropped from 155pts to 130pts because the increase to hit does nothing for them. The spitters also no longer scale to strength and are a flat 6. I'm a fan of the Drone losing one wound but no longer having a bracket. Spitter PBC's are much worse now. Haulers went from 100pts to 140pts because they were undercosted, and now are 3+ to hit with 2 melta shots (but I hear they are losing their other cool rules).

[Iron Sage]

I'm sorry I think I failed to see the part where our vechicles don't get the -1 dmg our infantry does... Is this true?

 

This means MBH are useless and my PBC are much worse. I allways went spewers so the +1bs give me nothing. The only thing that made the good was their toughness. Now they can't get up close because any assault infantry will just destroy them.

 

My Landraider is in even worse condition. Contaminated monstrosity made it playable and really tough. Now it's back to the shelf.

 

Defiler still looks good though (the boost to BS and WS helps  it the most).

Everything not with the Key Word Bubonic Astartes lose Inexorable Advance, which is very unfortunate, but doesn't remove any Disgustingly Resilient from Daemon Engines (but the Defiler is basically totally standard and so didn't gain any Nurgle special rules either). This is probably one of the part of the Codex that I am most critical of, that they didn't allow us to have a slightly more expensive but so much more flavorful, Death Guard Defiler and Death Guard Land Raider etc. But it's like in 8th edition except there is no Contaminated Monstrosity anymore.

[Iron Sage]

The Flash Outbreak stratagem (2CP). Use in your Command Phase. Pick one "Plague Company" Unit from your army (so only from one Great Company). Give that unit all the Contagions that any other unit in your army from that Plague Company has. Now, I do not think that Mortarion counts as a Plague Company, which is unfortunate since he will know one Contaigion as well, but say, your LOC has it's own contagion. It opens up interesting play or so it looks to me. And there are several ways to extend contagion range (this ironically being one of them).

 

What is more, it also have a beautiful secondary effect which makes all units from that Plague Company count their Turn as 1 higher than it actually is, for purposes of Contagion range.

 

Seems like a very powerful stratagem to me and the kind of stratagem that you can actually make plans around, since all it needs to work is a character with a contagion alive on the table. It lasts until your next command phase as well, so an entire turn.

Edited by Iron Sage, 19 January 2021 - 12:17 PM.

[Plague _Lord]

Ahhh thx putrid.

 

Ok so not all that bad but still haulers had great utility in being cheap but survivable, while have supbar shooting. I get that their shooting got a little bit better (they don't have access to any rerolls but they lost out on giving infantry cover and got a lot more expensive.  What also got better for them is shooting in combat without penalty so what we should be doing is rush them at nast shooty stuff and try to either force them to fall back or destroy them with up close and accurate melta shots. They have lost some survivability though and 140 pts for a throw away unit is rather a lot...

 

The other thing that bugs me is the inability to take full squad of plaguemarines AND a charachter in a rhino... And making possessed count as 2 spots in a transport... like golly gee?

[Verbal Underbelly]

Am I right in thinking a 10 model unit of plague marines can take the following three plasma guns (one on the champ) AND two blight launchers? Or two plague belchers AND two plague spewers? 

 

If so, that's pretty good. 

[Iron Sage]

Yes they can. While not Chosen, their special weapon options are almost similar in some ways. The 3 Plasma guns and 2 blight launchers stands out as a pretty decent mid range unit. Maybe pay 10 points for a sigil.

 

Costs 270 with Sigil and 280 if you put  Power Fist on the champ, so expensive. But looks like a decent unit. One of the lists I made yesterday contained a 280 version of that.

[jgascoine011]

Yep, depending how you look at it it’s not a buff though. Before you could take 5 man sqauds with a plasma gun and 2 BL/Plasma Guns...so yea, DG actually lost a plasma gun. However you now have 10 spare wounds to chew through before they can get to the special weapons