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No Renegades & Heretics in Imperial Armour :(


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43 replies to this topic

#26
sitnam

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Given that the army is currently without rules for this edition, and IIRC the 8th edition rules sucked, I'm tempted to start writing a fandex for them. Possibly a bad idea as my experience with writing rules is precisely zero, but it'd be something? I've already got all sorts of silly ideas for it (notably it being a "Lost and the Damned" 'dex rather than just "IG with spikes") but I'm probably getting ahead of myself...

I know you can find a few online, although I can’t say I’ve ever enjoyed any of them quite at much as the classic 6th/7th edition rules with demagogue devotions and chaos covenants unlocking special units
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#27
Evil Eye

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Given that the army is currently without rules for this edition, and IIRC the 8th edition rules sucked, I'm tempted to start writing a fandex for them. Possibly a bad idea as my experience with writing rules is precisely zero, but it'd be something? I've already got all sorts of silly ideas for it (notably it being a "Lost and the Damned" 'dex rather than just "IG with spikes") but I'm probably getting ahead of myself...

I know you can find a few online, although I can’t say I’ve ever enjoyed any of them quite at much as the classic 6th/7th edition rules with demagogue devotions and chaos covenants unlocking special units

 

I do have a copy of IA13 which I'd be using as inspiration (as I'd wholeheartedly agree with you on that) so watch this space!

 

...Assuming I ever get round to doing it.


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#28
Kythnos

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R&H are officially a Legends Army now. And a crap one at that... No faction rules, psychic powers gone, etcetera. At least our militia units got their ballistic skill of 4+ back...
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#29
sitnam

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R&H are officially a Legends Army now. And a crap one at that... No faction rules, psychic powers gone, etcetera. At least our militia units got their ballistic skill of 4+ back...


It seems our best options are either Fandex or to proxy using Guard/GSC rules
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#30
Schlitzaf

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I dunno rules actually seem reasonably solid? They got obj sec on troops, none of there units look bad, a couple mediocre but overall everythings looks nice. 


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#31
Cheex

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I...actually don't hate the new Legends list?

 

It's sad to see psychic powers removed, and Covenants gone and genericised into a unit ability. I'm glad to see Uncertain Worth gone, though - that's another element of bookkeeping I won't miss. WS/BS 4+ on everything is also a welcome change.

 

I could see myself digging out my R&H and giving it a try. I mean, it's not going to be strong, but as an ally to Daemons or CSM it could have merit.



#32
sitnam

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What I don't like is the complete removal of everything that made the 7th edition lost so the thematic. Chaos Covenants are a fairly generic ability, no demagogue devotions, and no unlocking units based off of Covenants/Devotions.
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#33
Tallarn Commander

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I agree with Schliztaf and Cheex. I like the new rules. They are worse than 7th Edition as Sitnam points out, but superior to our 8th edition R&H index rules. 

 

As people have noted, GW has locked us all into the Covenant of Khorne with the Covenant of Chaos rule. But as a World Eaters player, I'm OK with that. happy.png  

 

And, as noted above, regaining obsec on our troops and BS and SW of 4+ on our Mutant Rabble and Cultists will really improve the armies' performance. The picture below speaks a thousand words. It sure was frustrating have a squad of 20 Cultists, Mutant Rabble, or Militia on an objective only to lose it to a handful of enemy Scouts, Guardians, etc.

 

 

 

The Nostroman 9th's 1st Squad of Cultists outnumbers Admech Vanguard on an objective...yet the Nostromans lack Obsec so the Admech hold the objective 

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The 9th Edition rules have some things that play into our hand. We can easily put 100+ infantry on midfield and backfield objectives. And while the enemy can remove those with ease they still have to be removed. We can now outflank anything we want by spending a few command points, and since we still don't have stratagems we have plenty of CP to burn. The morale rules mean that our squads will dissolve to morale more slowly than in 8th edition. And many secondaries are kind to R&H. We can flood all the table quarters with our hordes, we can easily have small squads set up banners, our psykers, while now much worse, are cheaper and can hide behind terrain to conduct Psychic Rituals.

 

While my Marauders losing "In it for the Money" is sad, Marauder Brutes are worth taking now, finally. I might have to buy a box of Goliaths so that my Nostroman 9th's Marauder Squads (9th, 10th, and 11th Squads) can get Brutes.

 

And Mutant Rabble stub guns look like they would be fun.

 

Once the pandemic is resolved and my local gaming community returns, I'm now more excited about R&H than I have been since 7th.

 

 

 

 

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#34
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I'm actually super excited about R&H for local Crusade campaigns. The rules seem solid and free of most of the bizarre errors we had before. Yes, some flavor was shaved off, but I'll personally take that for ease of play.


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#35
4ndroid

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I've been working on a renegade guard army having collected a bunch of blackstone guard and cultists. 

 

I was browsing through battlescribe, I see that Covenant of Chaos infantry get a +1S when charging, charged, or heroically intervene. 

 

does this combine with Khorne +1S when it has charged, = 5S Guard? msn-wink.gif

 

of course they are only saving on 6s but they would punch really hard before being crushed themselves... 



#36
Tallarn Commander

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4ndroid,

Nope, it is only a +1 Str buff.

The 9th Edition Legends that came out in the Warhammer Community Forgeworld Legends PDF rules took away the various god-specific Chaos Covenants. They were replaced with the blanket "Covenant of Chaos Rule." This rule gives +1 Str to most units when they charge, are charged, or heroically intervene. So for most units that means their Str 3 goes up to Str 4 at the beginning of a fight. Chaos Brutes Mauler Hounds go up to Str 6 from Str 5 when the Covenant of Chaos is in effect.

The Khorne +1 Str rule no longer exists gor R&H in this edition. :(

The Plague Ogryns do get a "Covenant of Nurgle" rule in lieu of Covenant of Chaos though. It grants Feel No Pain on a 6+. So perhaps you could write up a home rule regarding Covenant of Khorne and use that in casual games. Perhaps your custom rule could say you pay 2 extra points per model and they get +2 Str when they charge, are charged, or heroically intervene?


What color scheme are you painting your R&H in?
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#37
Wolf Lord Loki

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So what would be fair for God specific covenants?

Nurgle: 6++ FNP
Khorne: on natural 6 in combat that hit does +1 damage
Tzentch:??
Slaanish:????

Honestly my ideas for the last to more or less translate the same as the first with Tzentch dodging bullets and getting a 6++
And Slaanish using poisons for that extra plus 1 damage
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#38
Tallarn Commander

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Yes, I like your suggested Covenant of rules.

Other options might include...

Perhaps Tzeench could be something like for every 3 infantry units of 10 or more models you have then one of those units can deny a psychic test and cast a D3 damage smite.

Perhaps Slaanesh could keep the Covenant of Slaanesh rule from 7th and 8th edition: the unit can add D6 to their advance and charge rolls.


You might want to test out your various Covenant custom rules during friendly pickup games.
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#39
Akrim

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Frankly I think Nurgle deserves a +5 FNP. R&H units dont have the good stat lines, armor saves or buffs that other horde armies do (Orks & Necrons for example).

With all the AP in todays game they might get a +6 normal save if they're lucky / in cover. Ergo - +5FNP sounds fair to me.

 

For Khorne I think I would just say exploding 6s on hits (= an additional attack) to make it easy.

 

They always seem to like Overwatch buffs with Tzeentch, personally I think it would be cooler if it had more of a psychic phase effect (units buffing the psykers rolls for example).

Esp since overwatch isnt as much of a thing now.

 

I agree with TC - Slaanesh should buff advance / charges - either add naturally to the roll (1-2) or reroll charge dice or similar.

 

R&H could afford strong covenants since the majority of it is really just T3 human stat lines or worse. Take a lot to make them competitive let alone OP.


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#40
Syrakul

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I also really like the new legends stuff, and will still run it for mostly heavy and elite support in CSM. I always stuck with the disciples/marauders, still see it the same way.

I noticed that the points for the command squad is -1 per model, compared to disciples for same statline; The Ld difference countered with a 5pt vox. (10 man squad can save 5/10 points when taken as command instead)

Might seem a bit cheesy squeezing those points, but we still miss out on traits, commands, etc, plus have 6+ saves, compared to guardsmen.

 

I'm told, as I wait in my covid bunker, that 9th ed. needs stable units in-game to hold the line, but I'm still interested to see what a 4 wound lascannon at 39 pts can do. (with 2 more groups staking their own ground elsewhere totaling 117) or if just 3 BS4+ HWSquads for 66 is better off.

 

 

 

I'm still hopeful that all the recent GW cultist/renegade guardsmen spot releases with coalesce into a Chaos Renegades Codex somewhere down the line.


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#41
Daemon Prince Marbas

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Covenants of Chaos Ideas:
Khorne- "Bloodcrazed Madmen" plus one strength and attack on the charge, if charged, or heroically intervening. Ogryn units can fight twice and get +1 strength. This represents ogryn Berzerkers from old lore while also showing strong rules for basic traitor Guard units in close combat.

Tzeentch: "Arcane Sorcerers" Every unit in the army can cast smite dealing d3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy unit or d6 if rolls of 11+. Rogue Psykers can cast an additional power.

Slaanesh- "Depraved Hedonists" advance and charge and always fights first in combat phase.

Nurgle- "Harbingers of Decay" 6+ FNP and flame weapons get the Plague Weapon special rule

Chaos Undivided- "Minions of the Dark Pantheon" Free summoning (yes I know this might be broken, but I can't think of another way to make summoning good or interesting again.)

#42
Tallarn Commander

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Very fun covenants.

Yeah, the free summoning would be a bit too powerful. In 8th I found summoning to be a great tool in the Renegades and Heretics toolkit. Perhaps change the free summoning without limits to 50 points of free summoning for every 1,000 points in your army list. Plus the ability to move and summon for our characters.

In addition perhaps the Covenant of Chaos Undivided could give each unit a morale re-roll. That's what the 3.5 CSM Codex gave to Mark of Chaos Undivided units and it was a pretty nice ability.

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#43
Azekai

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I would like summoning to reward aggressive play. First turn you can a small daemon squad in your deployment zone, and then you need to move out and start taking midfield or enemy objectives to plop down more.


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#44
Wolf Lord Loki

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Covenants of Chaos Ideas:
Khorne- "Bloodcrazed Madmen" plus one strength and attack on the charge, if charged, or heroically intervening. Ogryn units can fight twice and get +1 strength. This represents ogryn Berzerkers from old lore while also showing strong rules for basic traitor Guard units in close combat.

Tzeentch: "Arcane Sorcerers" Every unit in the army can cast smite dealing d3 mortal wounds to the closest enemy unit or d6 if rolls of 11+. Rogue Psykers can cast an additional power.

Slaanesh- "Depraved Hedonists" advance and charge and always fights first in combat phase.

Nurgle- "Harbingers of Decay" 6+ FNP and flame weapons get the Plague Weapon special rule

Chaos Undivided- "Minions of the Dark Pantheon" Free summoning (yes I know this might be broken, but I can't think of another way to make summoning good or interesting again.)


The khornate one sounds a bit much with the ogyrns

What about Tzentch - character s may pay for an extra point of ability gaining the untrained Psykers keywords and rules.

If taken and the model wasn't a psyker originally on a roll of a double they take d3 mortal wounds

Undivided - they have +1ld due to exposure to the madness of all the gods. If they are within 6" of a god specific covenant they can adopt that this turn. But only one covenant at a time
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Battle Tracker for my White Scars (Swindon 2008): Games this year 5 - Wins 2, Losses 2, Draws 1

Opponents:
Grey Knights 0/ 1/ 0 Imperial Guard 1/ 0/ 0
Eldar - 0/ 1/ 0 Crimson Fists 0/ 0/ 1
Tau 1/ 0/ 0




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