Who else is disappointed by the new Outrider kit?

[UtariOnzo]

The best case use I have for them is some ablative wounds and extra attacks/chaff clearance for a mobile teleport homer, I mean, Primaris Chaplain on Bike for my Deathwing Knights and maybe a similar job for melee focused chapters

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I typically don’t use any FAso two squads work well for me. Hopefully geedub will let sarge take a melee weapon and and increase max squad size.

[Alcyon]

It bums me out that two of the models have almost identical left arms with their chainswords out, I think that's a major waste of design space - just making one wielding it right-handed would be a major improvement. 

 

Rules-wise the kit also bums me out. It's clear to me now that the special charge rule is only intended to make them competitive with regular bare-bones bikes, and like others have mentioned that means they're essentially tougher, bigger Assault Intercessors. I'm not surprised the squad is capped at 3 because the bases for these guys are so huge that they're almost impossible to maneuver on boards with sufficient terrain.

Initially I was treating them like the perfect retinue for the Chaplain but with only three models, Look Out, Sir goes down as soon as a single one dies. I think to get use out of them I have to think of them more like a 5-man squad of Assault Intercessors with Bolt Rifles that can run really fast. They can take an objective off a small or weakened squad pretty readily with 18" movement but I don't know if that's worth 135pts, especially when they're only 3 models without ObSec.

[TheNewman]

It does create problems for the game when GW produces models like this with no alternative poses or weapon options. The unit is kind of hamstrung by the limit on its size and the fact it can only do S4 attacks. The end result is a limited unit that does oNe job pretty well, but nothing else.

 

It’s unfortunate because this is far from the first time they’ve done this. Reivers and their lieutenant gave the same pproblem - no other gear in the kit so no options for the squad. Characters with only the weapons they are built with, whether they make any sense or not. It’s just not a good policy at all.

I'm not sure I've ever really bought that argument. There are only eight distinct gear layouts for a Primaris Captain, but how many of the absurd number of possible gear layouts for a regular captain did you ever actually see?

 

Generally what actually shows up in a serious list is either the bargain basement gear just to get the Captain's aura into the list, or else whatever math-hammer says lays out the most damage from a Smash Captain against the likely suspects. There's 200ish possible layouts for a Marine Captain, but four or five of them probably cover the majority of the use-cases at any given time.

 

Which is really the worse design?

Edited November 16, 2020 by TheNewman

[Volt]

It does create problems for the game when GW produces models like this with no alternative poses or weapon options. The unit is kind of hamstrung by the limit on its size and the fact it can only do S4 attacks. The end result is a limited unit that does oNe job pretty well, but nothing else.

 

It’s unfortunate because this is far from the first time they’ve done this. Reivers and their lieutenant gave the same pproblem - no other gear in the kit so no options for the squad. Characters with only the weapons they are built with, whether they make any sense or not. It’s just not a good policy at all.

This has been one of my main griefs with Primaris as a range on whole, because either from a lore or rules perspective a lot of their units feel completely unnecessary or functionless, either doing jobs worse than existing Firstborn, or fulfilling roles that were simply never needed in the first place. Some of said units finally became good with lots of progressive points drops and rules tweaks like Intercessors or Inceptors, while others just remain stuck in the doldrums of mediocrity like Outriders, Reivers, and with changes to game rules, Incursors as well. Part of this is just GW adding more units than they know what to do with or serve any purpose, and part of it feels like Jes Goodwin has kind of lost his touch.

[Son of Sacrifice]

I find Jes Goodwin's comments about the game to verge on disrespectful. He certainly comes across as arrogant recently when he snorts and scoffs about space wizards. All my opinion of course, but maybe he should move on and start another company as it seems like toy soldiers are beneath him.

 

And to stay on topic I would much prefer a full outrider kit, not so much for the options as much as I find the indomitus bikes to be a badly designed kit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Jess is old school when it comes to their games, I remember him saying he’s never played any of them.

[UnkyHamHam]

 

It does create problems for the game when GW produces models like this with no alternative poses or weapon options. The unit is kind of hamstrung by the limit on its size and the fact it can only do S4 attacks. The end result is a limited unit that does oNe job pretty well, but nothing else.

 

It’s unfortunate because this is far from the first time they’ve done this. Reivers and their lieutenant gave the same pproblem - no other gear in the kit so no options for the squad. Characters with only the weapons they are built with, whether they make any sense or not. It’s just not a good policy at all.

I'm not sure I've ever really bought that argument. There are only eight distinct gear layouts for a Primaris Captain, but how many of the absurd number of possible gear layouts for a regular captain did you ever actually see?

 

Generally what actually shows up in a serious list is either the bargain basement gear just to get the Captain's aura into the list, or else whatever math-hammer says lays out the most damage from a Smash Captain against the likely suspects. There's 200ish possible layouts for a Marine Captain, but four or five of them probably cover the majority of the use-cases at any given time.

 

Which is really the worse design?

Your thoughts here are valid, but flawed. There is still a large chunk of the player base that wants to make a fluffy/unique captain as opposed to the current edition's iteration of mathematical primacy.

 

Also, each of the Primaris dudes has been given straight up unique gear with no mix and match available. In my opinion this leads to an even worse situation where choice and flavor are thrown aside to sell models.

 

But I expect this from GW. It makes sense from a business standpoint. The design philosophy of doing captains (among other units) tends to support narrative first and foremost. Which is kind of one of the reasons I started playing this game back when I was 12.

 

But alas, it is what it is now.

Edited November 17, 2020 by UnkyHamHam

[Mandragola]

 

 

It does create problems for the game when GW produces models like this with no alternative poses or weapon options. The unit is kind of hamstrung by the limit on its size and the fact it can only do S4 attacks. The end result is a limited unit that does oNe job pretty well, but nothing else.

 

It’s unfortunate because this is far from the first time they’ve done this. Reivers and their lieutenant gave the same pproblem - no other gear in the kit so no options for the squad. Characters with only the weapons they are built with, whether they make any sense or not. It’s just not a good policy at all.

I'm not sure I've ever really bought that argument. There are only eight distinct gear layouts for a Primaris Captain, but how many of the absurd number of possible gear layouts for a regular captain did you ever actually see?

 

Generally what actually shows up in a serious list is either the bargain basement gear just to get the Captain's aura into the list, or else whatever math-hammer says lays out the most damage from a Smash Captain against the likely suspects. There's 200ish possible layouts for a Marine Captain, but four or five of them probably cover the majority of the use-cases at any given time.

 

Which is really the worse design?

Your thoughts here are valid, but flawed. There is still a large chunk of the player base that wants to make a fluffy/unique captain as opposed to the current edition's iteration of mathematical primacy.

 

Also, each of the Primaris dudes has been given straight up unique gear with no mix and match available. In my opinion this leads to an even worse situation where choice and flavor are thrown aside to sell models.

 

But I expect this from GW. It makes sense from a business standpoint. The design philosophy of doing captains (among other units) tends to support narrative first and foremost. Which is kind of one of the reasons I started playing this game back when I was 12.

 

But alas, it is what it is now.

 

My complaint is that the game is ignored by the model designers, so the games designers have to run to keep up. It just doesn't work all that well as a design philosophy for a game system to be handed random stuff and told to make it work.

 

There's a reason that people fielded firstborn captains throughout 8th. They can have thunder hammers and jump packs, while Primaris captains could only have a normal 1D power sword. This is not a result that would make the mini designers happy - people were kitbashing smash captains instead of using their pretty new model.

 

The situation now is bizarre. You have two captain entries*: one with a better profile but few options and one with a whole menu of stuff he can take. Why? Is there an in-universe reason why a Primaris Captain couldn't take a Thunder Hammer? Why he is allowed to take a Power Fist but only if he also brings a plasma pistol - unless he's a Dark Angel in which case he can take one with a carbine thing instead? Oh and Space Wolves also got a bunch of those carbines which they can give to their Lieutenants, but only if they bring a power axe too.

 

It's now gone beyond Marines. So a Necron Overlord can have a new type of spear/scythe thingy, but only if he takes a Tachyon Arrow insead of the Res orb.

 

It does cut the other way too occasionally, giving surprising options. So Intercessor Sergeants can have hand flamers because of some random limited edition model that once existed, despite no other Primaris unit having hand flamers. But (IIRC) it replaces his rifle, which sucks.

 

The reason seems to be that the sculptors don't want us mucking about with their models. But that's always been a part of this hobby. Or maybe it has to do with the whole Chapterhouse nonsense .

 

*I mean actually way more than two, but who can be bothered to count them?

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

The reason seems to be that the sculptors don't want us mucking about with their models. But that's always been a part of this hobby. Or maybe it has to do with the whole Chapterhouse nonsense 

I really don't know what to tell you if you think its the former over the latter.

[Mandragola]

 

 

The reason seems to be that the sculptors don't want us mucking about with their models. But that's always been a part of this hobby. Or maybe it has to do with the whole Chapterhouse nonsense 

I really don't know what to tell you if you think its the former over the latter.

I actually think it's both. More recent sculpts are not really designed to be modular and convertible. This may partly be due to not wanting to leave openings for the likes of Chapterhouse, but I also think the sculptors like it.  It might not be a question of them wanting us to convert models or not, but they don't have to make it easy for us any more.

 

Except of course when the guys at WD decide they'd like a captain with a power axe for their custom chapter, so they just go ahead and invent him. Bit frustrating that they also like doing this kind of thing but don't allow us to do it.

[Alcyon]

I think fixed models with a few options for conversion make the game more accessible from GW‘s marketing perspective, and also safer from a legal perspective for them because the ruling was (as far as I understand it) they can’t sue anyone in the EU who makes parts that they don’t sell as part of their model lineup. So by getting rid of weapon options that they don’t sell, they prevent third-party builders from making those options and taking “their” business.

[Silas7]

That outriders are hardlocked with no equipment options or variation in squad size, tells me that only the indomitus models'll be available for a while. 

 

8th edition added the possibility for more than one codex dropping before the next edition, so there's a possiblity of a codex v2 that could have had updated rules with options if a mpc is dropped alongside that.

 

On the other hand, Surpressors were never revisited.

 

On the other, other hand, there were more fan reservations about the design of surpressors than that of the outriders.

 

So that leaves us where exactly? Who knows.

Well if WarCom actually gave us news on how the company is doing instead of just being used to grind out product hype we might know what GW hopes/ed to do. Questions like these could be solved, GW just doesn't care.

[Alcyon]

There's plenty of news about company performance in public shareholder reports and stuff like that. It just doesn't have enough granularity to tell us details about how or why certain kits were or weren't designed or made. That type of stuff is rarely, if ever, shared by corporations of GWs size because they give up competitive advantages, promote negative speculation, give people things to disagree with, etc. a litany of reasons. I'm certain GW cares they just don't think it's worth explaining and they're probably right.

[Mandragola]

What I find annoying is that the rules writers follow the box contents, but only for the Primaris range... apart from Intercessors. There has never been a model for the Firstborn bike Sergeant armed with a power fist, combi-weapon or whatever - only a power sword. But he gets access to the whole armoury because you can kitbash him. But you could kitbash an Outrider Sergeant just as easily.

 

There are official Primaris bits for melee weapons that we could give to the Sergeants of pretty much all Primaris units with no more difficulty than we could with Firstborn. It would be straightforward conversion work to swap some Outrider arms and/or torsos with the new assault intercessors when they come out, and we could give the Sergeants Power Fists at the same time.

[Ishagu]

I'm not too upset about that. It means that people don't have to spend extra money, time and effort to try to equip units. Everything the unit allows comes with the kit in most Primaris cases. Edited November 18, 2020 by Ishagu

[Mandragola]

I'm not too upset about that. It means that people don't have to spend extra money, time and effort to try to equip units. Everything the unit allows comes with the kit in most Primaris cases.

This is a fair point. The problem is that it leaves you with a bad unit if the box doesn't contain decent weapons - as is the case for Reivers. And it's not a consistent approach anyway, so you do need to kitbash intercessors and firstborn - indeed this is part of what makes those units good in the first place.

 

Personally I also quite like doing it and see chopping and changing models as pretty integral to the hobby. I realise it's not for everyone though.

[Karhedron]

To be fair, Firstborn were starting to move in this direction already. Look at the character kits released in 7th like the Iron Priest, Sanguinary Priest, Librarian etc. Fixed loadouts there too and the codices reflect that. The Primaris show the shift most clearly but it was underway already.

 

TBH Reivers have more flexibility than Outriders as they have a couple of different weapon options and can be 5-10 per squad. Not enough to make them good though. Outriders are actually a decent unit but the restrictions on wargear and unit size stop them being a great unit. Making them 3-6 per squad with a special weapon on the Sergeant would be enough to take them over the edge IMHO but alas that boat has sailed.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The monopose characters predate introduction of primaris, as Karhedron says.

 

Krom Dragongaze, Iron Priest, Interrogator-Chaplain, Sanguinary Priest, etc. all fit the same paradigm.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

What I find annoying is that the rules writers follow the box contents, but only for the Primaris range... apart from Intercessors. There has never been a model for the Firstborn bike Sergeant armed with a power fist, combi-weapon or whatever - only a power sword. But he gets access to the whole armoury because you can kitbash him. But you could kitbash an Outrider Sergeant just as easily.

 

There are official Primaris bits for melee weapons that we could give to the Sergeants of pretty much all Primaris units with no more difficulty than we could with Firstborn. It would be straightforward conversion work to swap some Outrider arms and/or torsos with the new assault intercessors when they come out, and we could give the Sergeants Power Fists at the same time.

 

Again though, it's just too early to be complaining about the lack of sergeant options on the Outriders when it's very clear that the datasheet in the codex only reflects the ETB kit as GW never had a plan to release the MPK in 2020. Wait until the actual multi-part Outrider box is released - if there are still no wargear options for the sergeant, the bikes, or the other bikers, the squad is still fixed at 3 max, and no Outrider can be taken as part of the squad, then these complaints will have merit. But I doubt ALL of those will be true and the sergeant's options may be the most likely to change out of that bunch.

[TheNewman]

 

It does create problems for the game when GW produces models like this with no alternative poses or weapon options. The unit is kind of hamstrung by the limit on its size and the fact it can only do S4 attacks. The end result is a limited unit that does oNe job pretty well, but nothing else.

 

It’s unfortunate because this is far from the first time they’ve done this. Reivers and their lieutenant gave the same pproblem - no other gear in the kit so no options for the squad. Characters with only the weapons they are built with, whether they make any sense or not. It’s just not a good policy at all.

I'm not sure I've ever really bought that argument. There are only eight distinct gear layouts for a Primaris Captain, but how many of the absurd number of possible gear layouts for a regular captain did you ever actually see?

 

Generally what actually shows up in a serious list is either the bargain basement gear just to get the Captain's aura into the list, or else whatever math-hammer says lays out the most damage from a Smash Captain against the likely suspects. There's 200ish possible layouts for a Marine Captain, but four or five of them probably cover the majority of the use-cases at any given time.

 

Which is really the worse design?

Your thoughts here are valid, but flawed. There is still a large chunk of the player base that wants to make a fluffy/unique captain as opposed to the current edition's iteration of mathematical primacy.

 

Also, each of the Primaris dudes has been given straight up unique gear with no mix and match available. In my opinion this leads to an even worse situation where choice and flavor are thrown aside to sell models.

 

But I expect this from GW. It makes sense from a business standpoint. The design philosophy of doing captains (among other units) tends to support narrative first and foremost. Which is kind of one of the reasons I started playing this game back when I was 12.

 

But alas, it is what it is now.

There's another reason I've never really bought that argument, and it's the bigger one that I should have lead with. To illustrate it I submit the following: the other local Vanilla Marine player built the Captain of his entirely Primaris chapter with a Spartan-style shield and spear (stuff he printed) and consistently played him as carrying the Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, and Artificer Armor, well before 9th ed.

 

The only thing separating a Marine Captain from a basic Marine is a cape and fancier gubbins, there's plenty if room to be a fluff-bunny and make the models "your guys" even within the confines of the Primaris rules.

 

200+ options on a Firstborn Captain doesn't increase your fluff-bunny options much because that's mostly limited by your imagination and your modeling skill, what it does increase is your ability to fine-tune his performance on the table.

 

Edit: In retrospect I realize this could easily be read as snarky, possibly even combative, and that's not really how I meant it. If I wanted to talk like that I'd have stayed at Dakka Dakka, that's not what I'm here for. I've softened the language some but I felt obliged to note the fact in case anyone reads it while I'm still editing.

Edited November 18, 2020 by TheNewman