Can we talk about Eradicators?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yes, it does. Why would you take a Multi-Melta on a Devastator squad for 25pts when you could take any of the other weapons for half the points?

 

Attack Bikes MM going from 10pts to 25pts is increasing the points of the Attack Bike by over 50%.

 

That's why GW gave the new Codex books points for weapons inside each unit. You can adjust each unit a lot more finely.

Uhhh...The weapons that would be half the points of the 25 multimelta are already half the points of the 20 point multimelta. They also fill completely different roles. The only main anti-tank weapons are lascannons at 15, missiles at 15 and multimeltas at 20 currently. You have less range and a point less strength (which is far less important than it used to be) but gain double the amount of shots and a far better damage roll. There's no consideration, especially with drop pods and the strat existing.

 

And what I actually said was increase by 5 points; make the 20 point multi melta 25, make the 10 point 15. Like actually spelled it out. Not sure how you managed to misrepresent making them all cost 25 flat.

Edited November 25, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Captain Idaho]

I wouldn't worry about being misrepresented, as the context is fairly obviously flawed either way - you don't need to increase the points across the board for a weapon system that is only really broken on 1 unit.

 

Not that I think it's broken on Eradicators. Perhaps just needing an adjustment but really a limit of 3 per unit would have worked well enough.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's not broken on one unit though. It's being taken across multiple units to fill a similar role of cheap, dedicated anti-tank. Attack bikes, atvs and eradicators all use the multimelta to crush tanks and fight in the midfield; the rate of fire on the gun also allows it to transition to elite infantry hunting where before it was pretty poor with 1 shot. And it and the pistol variant show up all across top tournament lists.

 

Clutch city: 1st place had 26 fusion pistols in the harlequin list: 4th place ultras had 6 eradicators

 

YHP fall brawl: 3rd place had 25 fusion pistols on the harlequins; 4th place bloody rose had 11 multimeltas on retributors, 2 on celestians and 8 inferno pistols

 

Mid-mo maelstrom: 1st harlequins 20 fusion pistols; 3rd templars 3 MM attack bikes and 5 eradicators; 4th scars 4 MM attack bikes

 

warzone dark times: 2nd ultras/wolves 3 MM attack bikes; 3rd ultras 3 MM attack bikes; 4th sororitas 8 MM retributors, meltas on celestians

 

 

I can keep on going.

 

Now I'm not going to say every list is carried by its melta component, but every marine list has a multi melta in it on attack bikes, or an eradicator blob. When does the most efficient choice for a role start or stop being OP? When a weapon is compared to its direct competitors and gets double the shots, double the minimum damage (or 6 times it in short range) and more than double its maximum output it's not OP for the role it's competing for?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Seems like every edition there’s a swing between melta and plasma as being the go to choice.

[Ishagu]

Those MM Attack Bikes, and the Retributors are just as potent, if not more so, as Eradicators.

 

I knew Harlequins were performing well but those results really make the point. Lots of people are saying they are the best army right now.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Ishagu

[Riddlesworth]

I knew Harlequins were performing well but those results really make the point. Lots of people are saying they are the best army right now.

They play very well into marines and we're in an edition where mobility will win you VPs and they are hyper mobile.

If more horde type lists rise, I think we see less harlequins

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed. Necrons aren't as bothered as Marines by massed Melta with their focus on Warrior blobs and Invulnerable saves on plenty of things.

 

Sure Melta hurts and will shred Canoptek Spyders of course, but if Marines focus on Melta, they'll see their army is very much inefficient.

 

Orks might actually see a decent Codex, alongside Tyranids. Maybe taking large units will be very worthwhile? There's loads of ways they can do it.

[Debauchery101]

Those MM Attack Bikes, and the Retributors are just as potent, if not more so, as Eradicators.

 

I knew Harlequins were performing well but those results really make the point. Lots of people are saying they are the best army right now.

Harlequins i feel are the best faction right now because theyre rules are anchored in 8th edition and the points adjustments haven't balanced them well. But there are other factors that play info their favor that are more important.

 

Almost every unit can make use of all the best abilities buffs and strats.

They are only effective when played by people who probably know you and everyone elses own codex books better than yall.

They don't have a huge base of players and it takes time to perfect their style. Most armies/lists they face requires a detailed plan. The players than can play that way are rare and almost always win because its hard to win vs armies/strategies you've never faced.

We have a club member who has ranked pretty high in itc but has slowed down to mostly club events since summer 2019. But he's still always #1. I try so many new things vs him. I do beat him and won events over him but like 1/5 ratio and I'm right below him and I'm salty about it

Edited November 26, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Riddlesworth]

To tie it back into this thread. Melta is great for them but its not a huge deal for them. But I am glad for double tap Eradicators against them because they have been one of the best tools against Harelquins.

 

I dropped Eradicators from my 1k list precisely because they weren't being a good fit against harlequins. that invulnerable save just kills their output so much that weight of fire seems the best way forward

Edited November 26, 2020 by Riddlesworth

[Debauchery101]

 

 

To tie it back into this thread. Melta is great for them but its not a huge deal for them. But I am glad for double tap Eradicators against them because they have been one of the best tools against Harelquins.

 

I dropped Eradicators from my 1k list precisely because they weren't being a good fit against harlequins. that invulnerable save just kills their output so much that weight of fire seems the best way forward

at 1k I'd also go a different route. I'd probably take more tempests and heavy bolter vets

[CCE1981]

Watching Sprues and Brews go over the Blood Angels Supplement and I see one of the sculpts for the multi-part Aggressor is the Sergeant tossing a Grenade at about the 3:40 Mark.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sweet !

[Dracos]

Watching Sprues and Brews go over the Blood Angels Supplement and I see one of the sculpts for the multi-part Aggressor is the Sergeant tossing a Grenade at about the 3:40 Mark.

A new Aggressor sculpt ?

[psyduck]

I presume he meant multi-part Eradicators, as that's what it looks like.

[Oxydo]

Watching Sprues and Brews go over the Blood Angels Supplement and I see one of the sculpts for the multi-part Aggressor is the Sergeant tossing a Grenade at about the 3:40 Mark.

If you mean the eradicator sergeant he's reloading his melta rifle, check the empty canister on the base.

[CCE1981]

Yeah Eradicator Sergeant blahh, flip flopping between day and night shift multiple times over the holiday.

[MegaVolt87]

There is still the fact the actual multi melta is a heavy weapon, so -1 to hit on most infantry that use it that move. Attack bikes and ATV are not vechicles, so their multi meltas are -1 to hit on mvt. They also don't fire twice on their unit rules either. Vechiles are expensive, so that helps the balance there as a platfor for them. Eradicator tandard melta rifle is assault. The heavy options, the -1 to hit is basicly offset by being able to double shoot. Even with smaller boards, melta needs mvt to setup, -1 to hit on move is a good limitation for them on infantry. Eradicators essentialy cheat the limitation by having an assault option and able to double fire. Melta isn't the issue, its the eradicators setup as a unit itself.

[Oxydo]

It's still only INFANTRY that gets the -1 to hit on heavy weapons after having moved. If they dont have the INFANTRY keyword, no penalty.

Bikes: no penalty, Broadsides: no penalty, Drones: no penalty.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The attack bikes are a favorite for chapter master full reroll, while the eradicators can use steady advance with heavy rifles. Ultramarines being able to leverage their doctrine bonus for no penalty on move and shoot helps too.

 

There's a reason you see attack bikes in the top lists as much as eradicators.

[MegaVolt87]

Attack bikes are far less of an issue than eradicators in their current state. Attack bikes don't get 12 melta shot's.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Nobody runs six man squads .

[Captain Idaho]

It's a matter of how many in the unit, to an extent. 3 Attack Bikes are dangerous but can still be taken out by 3 shots. 6 Eradicators will never be taken out by 3 shots like that.

 

I've been thinking... if some of the heavy vehicles were cheaper (they don't really need a power boost) the precious 3 Heavy Support slots available would be in hot competition. That would mean any more than a single Eradicators squad is unlikely to be favoured as folk add in other vehicles.

 

Consider Devastator squads are already great and can often take up a slot, so that's potentially 2 places.

 

It's an interesting balance to get right. Eradicators limited to a single unit due to desire to take other things, could balance the overall state of play somewhat. Especially if Eradicators took a slight points adjustment.

 

Potentially the base line squad could remain the same but additional models be more expensive (after 3) to also artificially insert the limit.

 

***

 

I'm not sure folk do run more than 4 in a unit. Though a friend of mine is building Death Watch with 2 Gravis units of 5 Heavy Intercessors and 5 Eradicators each... scary thought with some of his tricks he's aiming for.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[XeonDragon]

Dude, completely off-topic, but just sure your signature and wanted to say I love your video! (minus the metal introduction, but that is personal taste). Rock on dude!

 

Now, back to the topic at hand:

 

1. Whilst I haven't I've played against dudes running 5-man squads of eradicators, I did play a game last week against I guy that ran two squads of 6.
2. (a) If quad-las predators were a bit cheaper, I think people would consider running them and (b) even if they remained the same and got a 'stay still and you can shoot all your guns twice at the same target' rule, I think eradicators would have even more competition. 
3. Point 2(b) above will never happen (re: see what happened to the repulsor executioner). 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Attack bikes are far less of an issue than eradicators in their current state. Attack bikes don't get 12 melta shot's.

Go to 40kstats and look at the top 4 tournament lists. Theres a lot of attack bikes in there, even lists with eradicators sometimes feature them.

[MegaVolt87]

6 man eradicators is about the only primaris infantry unit you would want the entire 6. Blade guard, aggressors, inceptors sure no more than 5.

 

A combined old marine and primaris codex allows for a crazy amount of cherry picking. A clear split between the two would solve a lot of issues with the more obnoxious combo's and points could also be lowered with the removals of such cherry picking. SM are too overbearing as a combined book, a seperation would fix that along with points reductions more realistic than now in a combined codex.