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Auspex Scan Vs Drop Pod Contents


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9 replies to this topic

#1
Majkhel

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Guys, how do you see validity of Auspex Scan-equivalent Strats targeting the contents of the Drop Pod?

It was clear in 8th, now I witness heated discussions in my area. It seems clear that Drop Pods's content matches the necessary qualities of a Reinforcement unit (not starting game on the table or in a transport that starts the gam on the table).
Auspex Scan target units that are SET UP AS Reinforcements.
Units embarked inside Drop Pod must immediately disembark. Does that make them being set up as Reinforcements?

 

So, how do you see this? Has the Drop Pod lost it's ability to shield it's content?


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#2
Karhedron

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I think it has lost that ability. The rules for Reinforcements and for Auspex Scan have both been deliberately changed in 9th edition and I am certain that this is not a coincidence. GW has been quite thorough in tightening up wording in 9th edition to try and minimise the need for FAQs.

Drop Pods are very good and now allow you to deliver 20 wounds of models onto the table rather than 10. From a design point of view, balancing that power with a bit more flexibility in your opponent's response seems fair. Now you need to either be careful not to land within 12" of a unit carrying massed plasma or you need to bring down massed Reinforcements so Auspex Scan can only get one of them.

From a RAW point of view, I think the new rules are very clear and people are only confused because they are used to the old FAQ.
 

Units embarked inside Drop Pod must immediately disembark. Does that make them being set up as Reinforcements?


This is the key part of the question. Referring to main rules reveals the following:
 

Reinforcement unit: Unit that starts the battle in a
location other than the battlefield.


This makes it pretty clear that any unit that starts the battle off table is a Reinforcement unit. It does not matter if gets the ability from its own rules (e.g. Teleport Strike) or from another unit (e.g. Drop Pod). It is the act of being set up off-table that makes it a Reinforcement unit. Units in Pods are still Reinforcement units and so are viable targets for Auspex Scan.

It should be noted that this only applies to Auspex Scan. Other codices with similar stratagems such as Eldar (Forewarned) will probably continue to play by the old rules until/unless they get their new codex. I don't see GW going and FAQing a whole bunch of stratagems across different codices (I could of course be wrong).

Edited by Karhedron, 20 November 2020 - 02:48 PM.

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#3
BluejayJunior

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But following that logic, wouldn't Auspex Scan be able to be used on any units that are disembarking from a transport? 

I would argue that units in Drop Pods start the game in reinforcements, but they are not placed on the table as reinforcements. The Drop Pod is placed on the table as reinforcements, while the squad inside is placed on the table as a unit disembarking from a transport. 


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#4
Karhedron

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But following that logic, wouldn't Auspex Scan be able to be used on any units that are disembarking from a transport?


No I don't think so. Units embarked on Transports follow the specific rules for Emarked units which are described elsewhere and are not related to the Reinforcement units rules. Units in a Pod are a rare case in that they follow the rules for both Embarked units AND Reinforcement units.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#5
Jolemai

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In the abilities section of the Drop Pod datasheet entry, it specifies that the Pod and it's cargo don't count towards reinforcement limits of your army. Ergo, they are reinforcements.


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#6
BluejayJunior

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But following that logic, wouldn't Auspex Scan be able to be used on any units that are disembarking from a transport?


No I don't think so. Units embarked on Transports follow the specific rules for Emarked units which are described elsewhere and are not related to the Reinforcement units rules. Units in a Pod are a rare case in that they follow the rules for both Embarked units AND Reinforcement units.

 

I don't disagree with that. They are embarked in a transport that arrives as reinforcements. Which is the point that I am trying to make. There is an order of operations for how a Drop Pod and it's units are deployed. 

The Drop Pod is placed on the table as reinforcements. Then the units inside disembark, which is a different rule from reinforcements. 

We both agree that for all other transports the units inside are not reinforcements. There is no argument there. And I think we both agree that units in a Drop Pod start the game as reinforcements. 

The crux of the matter then is when they stop being reinforcements. 

To me, because the deployment of the Drop Pod is a two step process (1. Drop Pod placed on table, 2. unit disembarks) the unit is not arriving as reinforcements. When the Drop Pod is deployed on the table, the units inside cease to be in reinforcements and become units embarked in a transport. They are then deployed on the table as units disembarking from  a transport and not from reinforcements. 


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#7
Jolemai

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Actually, they don't follow the disembarkation rules entirely, because you can't disembark in the reinforcement step of the movement phase. What they follow is the the Drop Pod's abilities meaning the cargo automatically spill out as per the disembarkation rules and that's it. If they followed the disembarkation rules, they could move afterwards but this is prohibited due to the phase they arrive in.

Anyway:

Moving to the OR


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#8
Karhedron

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The crux of the matter then is when they stop being reinforcements.


They don't stop. Remember that Auspex Scan now happens at the end of the opponent's Movement phase (it no longer interrupts a sequence). It specifies that only units that arrived that turn from Reinforcements are eligible targets. Units disembarking from a Pod definitely fulfil the eligibility criteria specified by the Stratagem so they can be targeted.

To me, because the deployment of the Drop Pod is a two step process (1. Drop Pod placed on table, 2. unit disembarks) the unit is not arriving as reinforcements. When the Drop Pod is deployed on the table, the units inside cease to be in reinforcements and become units embarked in a transport. They are then deployed on the table as units disembarking from  a transport and not from reinforcements.


I think that is where we disagree. The unit in the pod don't suddenly stop arriving from reinforcements. There is nothing in the rules to support this interpretation. The stratagem simply says that they arrived from Reinforcements in the Movement phase that has just ended. There is no way I can see that it would be possible to argue that the unit in the Pod has NOT arrived from Reinforcements in that turn.

Edited by Karhedron, 20 November 2020 - 03:46 PM.

Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#9
BluejayJunior

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It would help if I had looked at how Auspex Scan works now. Since it happens at the end of the reinforcements step, my whole argument above is moot. I was basing it off of the previous timing of Auspex Scan. I do believe that yours is the correct interpretation. 


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#10
Majkhel

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Thanks for the brainstorm, guys!
It indeed seems that this is the way to interpret this. 


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