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9th Ed - first thought after some playtime


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#1
Spacecow

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I’ve been making lists and playing some games recently with the release of 9th edition. And I must say I found it overall a fun experience.
Before I genuinely detested making army lists. It felt more like a chore. Taking the detachment system and turning it around feels liberating.
I generally go for one overall Hive fleet but I could see this being less useful for people that like playing more mixed armies.

The missions feel very ‘non nid’ as well as certain ( secondary)objectives. Not the end of the world but I felt the need to change it a little on the narrative front to fit it better.

It’s nice to have more objectives to choose from on one hand, yet I quickly found that playing against nids taking ‘Thin their ranks’ and ‘Bring it down’ are pretty much no-brainers.
For context I fielded 2 times 30 x genestealers, 20 x termies with dev, 20x termies with flesh, a mawloc, a broodlord, swarmlord, flyrant , toxicrene, a fex and some ripper swarms.
So it’s basically a victory point fest.
A comparison: If I applied it to my count I got 20 on my counter for killing 715 points worth of marines (= 2 victory points) , my opponent got 74 for killing 1150 points worth (=7 VP )+ 6 VP for ‘bring it down’.
It’s not a complaint but a lesson learned. Although it does leave me with a feeling of having to severely adapt what I’ll field in the future to not give VP away like Oprah.

9th Ed isn’t a major overhaul of 8th. I did splutter a little on the stacking modifier cap of -1.
I understand why they put it in, but I feel like a cap of -2 would be more fair. For example a unit of devastators with multi meltas that moved shot at my flyrant with chameleonic mutation. Because they already moved the mutation modifier didn’t stack. It made it feel rather useless. The unit shot it to smithereens basically in one go so that -2 wouldn’t have been overpowered I think.

I guess I’d rather have them just FAQ’d the overpowered ‘broken’ rules in other armies than making such a blanket rule for all armies.

Surprisingly nids still seem to hold up enough against the new marines in combat to have fun. (We had an epic moment where my broodlord killed a shiny new Primaris captain in one go and in a last attempt (only in death duty ends) killed the broodlord in return. )
Having overwatch being a stratagem does help us a lot.

It is clear though that a new codex for our beloved nids is needed but I’m happy to find out there still some fighting power in them with 9 th even without it. :)

What do you guys think?
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#2
WarriorFish

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The likes of Kill Points always feels harsh on horde armies, sometimes I think the old calculation of points for VPs would be a nicer solution (it wasn't that much work to do). Otherwise the only choice is to adjust your lists, but nobody wants to feel boxed into certain lists confused.gif I never stacked things up so the cap on modifiers isn't a huge change to me, the main thing is as you noted that this gives "free moves" away if you have a -1 to shooting. Even that is significant enough, mobility is always good to have all the more so on platforms/weapons that wouldn't usually get it.

 

I did ok against the new Marines also but took a battering getting there (many a poor gaunt did nothing but catch bullets). Being able to get into combat without getting blasted off the board some more for the audacity of charging is as much a difference as expected and very welcome for combat armies :) As for Marines directly, 2 Wounds for all makes a notable difference. Fortunately my heavy hitters could provide ample multiple damage, as if they weren't carrying the game enough tongue.png


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#3
Spacecow

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The old calculation thing was before my time. Learned something and yes I do feel that might be better representative of what actually happened on the battlefield. Narratively wise that me what my bugs want to do: kill stuff to eat. So the more the merrier. ^^

At this point I’m probably putting ‘build more carnifexes’ higher on the hobby to do list.

Yeah two w marines makes them a bit chunkier but it feels right. They should be.
I’d like a bit more umph on our bigger monsters. Fe The idea of the Mawloc is so much fun and I keep shoving it into lists for it to not quite deliver and get slaughtered. Maybe a stratagem so it can charge when it just deepstriked(?).
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#4
WarriorFish

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If I remember right it was half the value of the unit if you reduced it below half strength and full for wiping the unit out or it falling back. It made things a lot fairer as a squad's worth was a direct value, but I think it's not going to return any time soon if ever. That said, GW's move to streamline the game seems to have taken a bit of a reverse so you never know?

 

I'm hoping that the SM codex sets a good standard for future ones as it does a lot of things right. If the same can be said of all then it'll be a good edition, but we'll see as always. I want more Carnifexes too (who doesn't though?) but need to give more thought to the bigger critters. I feel they're a lot more "bespoke" than bigger/badder/etc units from other armies as they serve more particular roles which unfortunately means it's easier for them to fall behind. If they could be a bit scarier that would be good, they seem a little underwhelming for what should be the "killer" units - if a giant bug shows up people should be concerned :P


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Defiler | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Genestealers


#5
Xenith

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I think thin their ranks is a trap for nid opponents - you can get more VP's easier with other secondaries. You have to kill what, 100 models to get 10VP's in thin Their Ranks? That's a bad return when you can get like 15 for repair the homer, or 15 just by being in all 4 quarters for the whole game. 

 

Nids have always struggled to kill, but I think they might dominate the objective game in 9th. 

 

Particularly I'm looking at ~30 synapsed hormies to sling into the opposing front line in T1 and shut down their movement. Lictors and rippers make engage on all front and linebreaker, and probably repair homers dead easy to max out. Zoanthropes are ideal for holding the centre, as you'll likely see beatstick units like bladeguard and assault termies go for the middle...both of which zoans are hard counters for, both having a strong invun and being able to slap mortals on stuff. 

 

I think the base of a decent objective grabbing army will be:

 

Neuro

(+/- Swarmlord)

 

2x3 rippers

2x20 gaunts

1 unit of 5 or 2 units of 3 shooty warriors.

 

2 Lictors

1/2 x 5 Zoanthropes

 

Your choice from Exocrines or Tyrannofexes. 



#6
WarriorFish

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Always play the mission tongue.png Feels all the more so now with how the objectives work but that's a good point in that a lot of people will play killhammer... With the diverse nature of nid units it's a good place to be in for picking and choosing how you can achieve the missions smile.png

 

I'm trying to figure out how to expand my list beyond 1,000pts as my Troop slots are full already but don't feel like I have enough gribblies sweat.gif At least I never claimed I'd be good at playing nids :lol:


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Defiler | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Genestealers


#7
jgascoine011

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I actually think nids are in a decent spot, there is just a few things that dont quite work anymore...such as 20 genestealers.

As for secondaries, thin the ranks is a huge trap, you need to kill 150 models to make it. And bring it down, well that is general good against most armies but even then, nids only really need 2 or 3 big monsters (generally 3 exocrines)

 

Hive guard are perhaps one of the best units in 9th with the ability to double shoot and ignore LOS and cover

Exocrines, lictors and brood lords are also amazing.

Gaunts provide excellent screens, but never give them devs, you pay nearly double the points to give a unit with crap shooting slightly less crap shooting.

They are right now one of the kings of the movement phase, with swarmlord, double move, reserves, lictors, trygons etc, so many ways to bring your guys in and move them to where they are needed.

 

The only thing bad about them is they dont play how they are supposed to play.

Right now they are a gunline with some combat, while they are supposed to be a fast moving agressive army with some shooting.

Also their warlord traits and relics suck, apart from the crown...which everyone takes because its the only half decent relic.


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#8
TheNewman

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Blood of Baal helped a little on the Warlord Trait/Relic front. Murderous Size in particular jumps out (S6->S7 and +1D in melee is huge) but there are a fair number of decent combos in there.

#9
Alcyon

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Yeah, the physiologies are a lot better than the warlord traits, and I think the Resonance Barb is a lot better than the Crown. Haven't seen anyone run a Crown that I can think of.



#10
jgascoine011

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Yeah, the physiologies are a lot better than the warlord traits, and I think the Resonance Barb is a lot better than the Crown. Haven't seen anyone run a Crown that I can think of.

yea sorry ment the barb i think, its the one that gives +1 to cast and can cast an extra power


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#11
jbaeza94

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I’ll be honest I’m having a horrible time. Bikes and melta everywhere . My carpets are getting chewed through and my monsters are doing in a single round of shooting. My hive tyrant died turn 2 yesterday, because my opponent was able to get into melta range with 3 invaders

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#12
Xenith

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I’ll be honest I’m having a horrible time. Bikes and melta everywhere . My carpets are getting chewed through and my monsters are doing in a single round of shooting. My hive tyrant died turn 2 yesterday, because my opponent was able to get into melta range with 3 invaders

 

Sounds like your screens didnt do their job? Maybe keep the tyrant off and strategic resrve it, or have it fly down with wings. Though my preferred tactic would be to charge those invaders with gaunts in synapse range. They'll be useless for most of the battle. 

 

Either way, 3 invaders will kill pretty much anything, that isn't the tyrant's fault. If they're within 12", then you can probably charge them with the rest of your army. Losing those 3 invaders is probably a bigger loss for them than losing a tyrant is for nids. 



#13
jbaeza94

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I’ll be honest I’m having a horrible time. Bikes and melta everywhere . My carpets are getting chewed through and my monsters are doing in a single round of shooting. My hive tyrant died turn 2 yesterday, because my opponent was able to get into melta range with 3 invaders

Sounds like your screens didnt do their job? Maybe keep the tyrant off and strategic resrve it, or have it fly down with wings. Though my preferred tactic would be to charge those invaders with gaunts in synapse range. They'll be useless for most of the battle.

Either way, 3 invaders will kill pretty much anything, that isn't the tyrant's fault. If they're within 12", then you can probably charge them with the rest of your army. Losing those 3 invaders is probably a bigger loss for them than losing a tyrant is for nids.
Unfortunately earlier that in the game he was able to kill a 9man squad of warriors, carnifex and tyranid prime with his other biker units, who all had melta as well. So screen gone. Gaunts were on the right side of the board while tyrant was center and the warriors/prime/carnifex were left. He just blew right through them, didn’t help that he went first and it was a 1k game with deployment along the long table edges, so he was too fast


Edit: the melta and bikes were just a hard counter. Every single hit killed a warrior, and he had an apothecary to bring back invaders. It was a rough game

Edited by jbaeza94, 19 December 2020 - 05:35 PM.

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#14
Xenith

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he had an apothecary to bring back invaders. It was a rough game

 

Sounds like you played against 'that guy'...You can't really do much against that, to be honest. No army can. 3x Invaders with 1CP Transhuman spam and resurrection is quite broken. 


Edited by Xenith, 20 December 2020 - 11:18 AM.

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#15
TheNewman

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he had an apothecary to bring back invaders. It was a rough game


Sounds like you played against 'that guy'...You can't really do much against that, to be honest. No army can. 3x Invaders with 1CP Transhuman spam and resurrection is quite broken.
I think pretty much everyone was expecting that to get errata-ed out in the week-one FAQ, I'm stunned it's still allowed.

What's weird about the ATV is it's basically two Bikes and an Multimelta Attack Bike welded together with a slight points discount for being easier to kill and that doesn't sound like something that ought to be a problem on the table, it's the interaction with the Apothecary that's broken

#16
Alcyon

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I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming FAQ releases patched that out. It makes zero sense.



#17
TheNewman

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I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming FAQ releases patched that out. It makes zero sense.

Rejoice, for it is so!

Although Eradicators went up a measly 5 ppm, boo.

Edited by TheNewman, 08 January 2021 - 02:03 PM.


#18
Alcyon

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Hah, Eradicators hardly needed it. Take a look at all the RTT results collected on Goonhammer and 40kStats, they are not an oppressive metagame force. Outriders going up 5 ppm is even less logical. Inceptors, ok, but it was only the Plasma version that needed a small hit.


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#19
Dracos

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Eradicator was hardly meta busting but neither were Aggressors, I can live with it though. They were maybe a touch too good for the points and I sure didn't want to lose the ability to shoot twice like Aggressors did. The Inceptors bump is just wrong. At most they should have just bumped the cost of the Plasma. Dang things cost are in Centurion territory now.


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#20
Alcyon

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I mean, they are definitely undercosted compared to what other armies get. They are very strong even at their current points cost. There is no question they are still very competitive, by far better than playable. Maybe a 10pts increase per model would start to put them on-rate or close to equal to other options.


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#21
TheNewman

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I was ready to argue about Inceptors being in Centurion territory, but then I remembered that Assault Cents are a thing.

I kind of see the point of the last several posts. Eradicators are probably a tad too good for the points and definitely the most points efficient thing for their role, but what they're really good at killing is T7 multi-wound targets with no invuln. Who runs that?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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#22
Azekai

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Anyone who says that eradicators aren’t that good is full of it. Eradicators are amazing. The fact that they exist as such an attractive option and that they *might* show up in any SM list means that they indirectly shape the meta. Taking our expensive monsters without a strong Invuln save is a big risk. My carnifex struggle against tac-doctrine boosted bolters for crying out loud, let alone eradicators.
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#23
Alcyon

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Yeah, definitely the fact that melta went to D6+2 on top of there being a Space Marine unit that has 2 shots per model out to 24" is definitely meta shaping, though I'd say Retributors are just as impactful if not more so.

 

Back in the day when there was less terrain and everyone's best A/T was Lascannons I think vehicles were a fair bit more viable. But like TheNewman said, nobody runs T7 without an invuln anymore, it's just suicide, and melta is still worth bringing against all the 3w 4++ Custodes and everything else especially when with Marines you can kill those at max range.



#24
Xenith

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It's going to be interesting to see how GW deals with this for an army whose bread and butter is big beasties that can do damage. The standard profile of t6-t7, lots of wounds would have been (and was) intimidating in 3rd edition, but not any more, when 2 good lascannon hits can cripple or kill some of our biggest monsters. Even a single heavy melta rifle shot at short range is in this territory, getting up to 10 damage. 






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