What GW Can Learn From the Videogame Industry

[Commander Dawnstar]

Seasons are cancerous already in videogame metas, adding them to tabletop would be the like the most malaised mechanic of that accursed pit of "free" to play games crawling out and infesting the material gaming world worse than the system already in place. Players would be objectively just priced out by constant rollouts of fairly expensive books containing rules you need in order to keep up, but cannot afford to gobble up. Plus they become utterly worthless whenever an edition ends and the local meta abandons past editions - becoming little more than overpriced bookends.

Isn't this an issue with Chapter Approved right now?

 

We're already in a situation where GW expects/requires you to pay for two annual content updates, effectively made mandatory by points changes.

[Valkyrion]

Interesting discussion.

 

My only experience with seasons in computer games is Diablo 3 but it's entirely optional as a new season means you must begin from scratch - you can continue the main game without seasoning for about 8 years now...

 

The rules in this upcoming campaign book should be battlefield and mission rules only for use within the campaign - no rules that pertain to models or army construction in the wider game should be included for any faction.

The rules for this campaign should be free gratis as downloads and the physical book being a kinda 'source book'. The book gives you the rules, but also the fluff, detailed army composition, info on the planets and the reason it is important to the wider setting.

 

That makes it entirely optional and completionists and fluff junkies will buy the book - I would have willingly bought both the new DG codex and the fluff book. But now I know that the campaign book has rules for the DG in addition to the codex then I'm not going to buy either and will source them via....methods....instead.

[Stofficus]

Sweet christ no, the problem is that there's too many books to begin with. An edition should only have as many rulebooks as is absolutely necessary - ie the BRB and the codices and errata when needed. Anything more is just bloat on top of that unless it is purely just campaign books with no additional rules to upset the metas and promote GW's favored rules creep across an edition. Seasons are cancerous already in videogame metas, adding them to tabletop would be the like the most malaised mechanic of that accursed pit of "free" to play games crawling out and infesting the material gaming world worse than the system already in place. Players would be objectively just priced out by constant rollouts of fairly expensive books containing rules you need in order to keep up, but cannot afford to gobble up. Plus they become utterly worthless whenever an edition ends and the local meta abandons past editions - becoming little more than overpriced bookends.

 

If campaigns were to be done right, GW just needs to stick to their bloody guns and run net Campaigns similar to the original Black Crusade or Storm of Chaos, but actually stick to their guns and commit to the results of a campaign. Instead of the usual foray with GW campaigns (and why caring about them is completely pointless) where GW either throws a fit and retcons all of the things they don't like - or they just completely ignore the results of it in the first place, even if the campaign was written by them. See Vigilus and Psychic Awakening for the most recent examples of the latter. This is also why I'm completely burned out on GW campaigns, because unlike in AOS there's no reason to give a damn about them in 40k. AOS certainly has shown more promise than 40K in this regard, Anvilgard iirc is gone, the faction is dead, the citizens scattered to the winds of magic and the city taken by the enemy and Order was defeated.

 

We don't need seasons, or any kind of gimmick. We just need good rules with good errata rolled out in a timely fashion, and then kept there, no editions every three years or such nonsense. And as for campaigns they should be player-game driven affairs with the results being cemented parts of the lore and the consequences not being erased. It's not like the lapse in releases is even necessary either. GW could literally release every single codex for every single faction right at the start of a new edition, but instead prefer to drag things out to milk anticipation (which turns into money) instead of writing and printing everything, then releasing all of the books come a new edition. It's a shame that the Indices of the start of 8th immediately fell apart, as they were the best idea GW had in a while.

 

Which is a perfect world, but I think the writing is on the wall that GW has no intent on doing that with 40k - AoS they're more experimental with as it's not their primary revenue source and tryign to figure out how to keep it growing - 40k is the golden ticket that just keeps printing money regardless of what they do, so why not break up the rules into a million publications and drive more profit from basic game mechanics? 

 

I was just trying to spitball a means for that reality to be a little less harmful. 

[Bryan Blaire]

Sadly Stofficus, I don't think there's a hope to stop the reality from being too harmful - folks seemed conditioned to accept it now, and you can see from this very board that there is little resistance to it over all, and a group (albeit seemingly small) that will even actively tell people to love the company (the company is good, the company loves you back, the company tells you all that you need to know, trust the company - it's actually disturbing to see that level of devotion to a corporate entity) and accept the bitter pills (because it's still good for you, ya know?).

 

It just seems like there's such an "official only" bug that has bitten and taken hold deep outside of small gaming groups, that's why GW can get away with splitting their rules across as many books as they like, and people will still buy them, to have all the official rules. Heck, that's why I will argue so hard about the official rules being more all-encompassing, because outside of your small gaming group (which let's face it, folks don't always have/play against), you usually can't get acceptance for anything outside the officially written material, even in friendly, non-competitive games.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Sounds like your idea will only exacerbate one of my biggest issues...the constantly changing rules, both core, and faction specific.

Personally I don't care if a faction is 'broken' all edition, for a busy adult, trying to constantly keep up with changes to the core rules and my faction's rules is annoying to me.

 

To avoid power creep/bloat just release all codexes at once instead of two at a time for a few months with the final two being significantly stronger than the first two (without FAQs and errata)

[Claws and Effect]

GW should ignore anything the video game industry does. 

 

They've already adopted the DLC model in spades. I'd rather they not start selling us rulebooks they haven't finished writing and telling us we can buy the rest of the book in 3 months. 

 

I'm also very annoyed that we bought pretty much all the Psychic Awakening books because of the promise that they were written with 9th edition in mind, only to find out that everything in them that relates to the factions my family plays has been completely taken away just months after we got it. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Claws and Effect

[Noserenda]

Urgh, cant say id be a fan of that tbh. I think the Warzones idea could work as could running interactive campaigns though presumably someone crunched the numbers on those and figured they didnt pull in enough cash. I certainly understand they are a pig to write for, especially if you go full L5r and let the players make obscure decisions :D 

I dont know though, theres so much content and packs and campaign books just building up against the dam that its Covid right now its all essentially wasted. Ive been able to get like one game in recently but if i was a completionist id have half a dozen supplements to try out, which all feels a bit frustrating.

[Vermintide]

Business wise, I think GW gets greedy enough sometimes, and we really don't need them learning any tricks from the video game industry and their downright anti-consumer practices. They already tried their hand at loot boxes...

 

On the gaming side> Honestly I don't think videogames have much to teach GW, or at least, the lessons are not really all that transferable. But I think they could really stand to take a lot better of an approach to the digital technology available today. How there isn't a Warhammer matchmaking/LFG app yet astounds me...

 

Said it before but we need a wargaming Tinder.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Everything better that video games tend to do, like have better balanced characters/factions, update every character/faction at once instead of doing them monthly, free balance updates as apposed to charging for chapter approved to fix their own point costs, will make GW less money, so they have nothing to gain from video games.

 

GW's "extra content" is far worse than any video game companies I've ever seen:

 

"Here's the new DG codex (haha jk 2021)! And immediately a new campaign book that might have a special Detatchment rule(s) for them! And also immediately a crusade book that has DG rules that could have easily just been in the codex! And then you can pay us down the road to rebalance our own points on stuff! Don't worry that other expansion book you bought less than a year ago is completely obsolete! Give us your money!".

 

GW is already far worse than the video game industry. The biggest difference is they have far less customers so they need to milk more out of each one.

[N1SB]

Hi guys, in a previous life I worked in what'd be considered an indie games studio.  I've been meaning to reply, but the problem wasn't that I didn't have anything to say, it's that I got too much to say, and I want to keep this brief.

 

An important point - learning from someone else doesn't mean copying everything they do, most of the time it means avoiding their mistakes.  That's usually the Hard Lessons Learned, and it's cheaper to learn on their dime.

 

 

Overall, this accomplishes a few things: provides a clearer roadmap of future releases, makes for a more consistent book format which would reduce bloat, enhances community engagement, establishes a much more clear direction and theme to GW's releases, and theoretically results in more even distribution of releases from the last few years of All Primaris, All The Time. 

 

I know there are a host of other lessons GW could be taking from other industries to address other current flaws, but I think for the most part GW is trying to actively evolve into a better, more efficient company - but is currently completely missing the mark on their content delivery format which is a pretty big thing to bungle. 

 

Yeah, I've been thinking about this, and there's been a great example:

 

 

+++ The Horus Heresy Black Books & Weekender Events +++

 

 

This is a case of where the video game industry could learn from Games Workshop, or more specifically, really just Forgeworld.

 

Prior to authour Alan Bligh's passing, I thought these were the best examples of what Brother Stofficus suggested.  Very clear roadmap, every year, a new Black Book, and they would tell you what's in next year's.  Each book wasn't just for 1 faction, it usually added something new across the board, plus some new Legion-specific things.  It was part of an ongoing plot, very clear direction.

 

Despite each Book having so much content, they were all themed.  Man, I remember I got into 30k around the time of the Book V: the one with the Cults & Militias and you could customise your own with Provenances.  It coincided with the plot on Calth, so we saw the non-Legion soldiery, so it made sense, and I liked how there was that Ultramarines Rite of War or some sort of special rule where they worked particularly well with Militias to represent them working hand-in-glove with the Ultramar 500 planetary defense forces.  Then came Book VI: Black Shields and Orphans of Betrayal and awesome stuff of Marines who broke off from their Legion, so many shades of that.

 

This was before GW got its act together and restarted their marketing engine with Warhammer Community, more store activities like Armies on Parade.  It was FW taking the initiative and making their own convention in hotel conference rooms, so low budget, but everyone talked about it.  And it's thanks to members here like Lady Atia and Mr. Parker and many others who kindly shared their experiences here, LIVE, they didn't even need a Twitch channel.  And I'd hear about it in my FLGS what you guys were talking about because the rumour sites were just repeating what you said like it was their own information.

 

Seasons were introduced (initially by Diablo) as a low-budget way to lengthen the lifespan of an already developed title.  This lets the main dev team move on to the next major project while a dedicated skeleton crew continues to add minor things to an existing game.  Forgeworld is imho the best example of such a crew, seriously they just add some plot and a few new rules, perhaps 2 or 3 new units relatively slowly, but I remember the renewed excitement we felt for Warhammer.

 

 

+++ Best Actual Video Game Seasons Example IMHO +++

 

 

This is an opinion, just mine, but there's this online game called DC Universe Online.  Their Seasons are...whatever's popular with other DC properties, from the films to TV shows to actual comics, they'll tie in with it.

 

It's a dated game.  Even when it was new, it was a pretty limited game, it's more like a MMO that where you enter the DC cartoons from our youth with the same voice actors (like I worked for Joker for a bit...voiced by Mark Hamill, it was hilarious).  It was great for what it was designed to be.  Then when the DC cinematic universe became a thing, DCUO just developed new episodic content somewhat related to it.

 

Example, when the Aquaman film came out, DCUO just started a multi-episode series of game content focused on Atlantis.  Was it based on the film?  Not really, it doesn't look like the DCUO devs had much insider knowledge on the film.  However, from just publicly available information, we knew the movie would focus on Aquaman taking the throne.  DCUO just went with that and, without messing up its own continuity, made 3 Seasons-worth of DLC about an Atlantean civil war.  It was awesome.  I didn't play constantly, but I'd log back in each new episode just to play out the next stage of this long war...kinda like the Horus Heresy...and it was very fun.

 

I mention this because we're getting Warhammer comics and TV shows now...kinda like DCUO has.  It'll be very interesting.  For example, when the Eisenhorn series finally comes out, I expect a lot of stuff coming for the Inquisition in general.

 

Edit - something happened and its effects on me were so interesting that I had to include this data point for this topic.  I watched the recently released film, Wonder Woman 1984.  I personally had an overall negative experience with that film.  Yet it made me log into DCUO right away, almost as if to wash that bad taste in my mouth.  Cross-media IP has very interesting dynamics.  Even a bad movie will accomplish the intended effect of cross-promotion, which is to remind you that IP exists in the 1st place.

 

 

+++ But IMHO, GW might not have to study another industry as much as learning to manage itself better +++

 

 

Fraters, do you remember when GW announced 8th, it seemed no one was more surprised than FW?  And FW is part of GW.

 

FW had to churn out new Imperial Armour books and that's to say nothing of the state of the Horus Heresy.  I remember when we were waiting for FW's announcement of what would happen to 30k/AoD with 8th ed and only after a while did they announce their own rulebook.  That sort of thing I think is exactly the problem of unclear roadmaps, something that should've been sorted out even before the 8th ed announcement.  Did someone forget to CC FW in the 8th ed memo?

 

Management doesn't mean bossing people around, it just means making the process of work...work.  That said, GW is actually doing that now, or at least trying.  Releasing a free Death Guard mini alongside the coin with the new Death Guard Codex...which got delayed because of Covid logistics issues.  At least they tried, it's exactly the type of thing that's equivalent of Seasons.

 

GW's making a lot of business news right now because it's like an overnight success...that was 40 years in the making.  It operated like a small company for those 40 years, but it definitely hit a milestone and the expectation is for it to step up its game.  That's a slightly different issue than learning form the video game industry.  It needs to learn its own industry, it's a time for reflection.

 

But IMHO they're working on it, that's a great sign, it's just a WIP.

 

 

+++ Final Piece of News no one's talking about +++

 

 

GW, before it started up Warhammer Community and many other initiatives like the Gathering Storm, etc., hired an ex-Xbox guy.

 

Robert Dekker was his name.  Worked with the EMEA (Europe and Middle East) Xbox team.  The Xbox group was an anomaly inside Microsoft because it answered to a totally different chain-of-command...which worked to its advantage.  It was taking on Sony and Nintendo and had trouble getting media attention because those 2 companies had such an entrenched relationship with magazines and TV by that time...so Xbox made its own magazine and TV show.  Warhammer Community was very much in-line with that playbook.  Clearly GW was looking for someone with video game industry knowledge for that sort of play.

 

He left GW.  Earlier this month, he just rejoined GW.  I don't read too much into it, it just happened shortly after this thread started, I decided to look him back up, found out he returned to GW.  Nice coincidence...or maybe GW CEO Kevin Rountree reads these forums, I dunno.

 

 

+++++

 

Edit - after posting, I thought I should add this, because I support Brother Stofficus's exploration of the topic.  It's worth having.

 

I agree Games Workshop can learn, because everyone can and should continue to learn, it's good brain exercise.  It's like what we do here, we play against and learn from people in our local meta, but that's a small sample size and limited knowledge base, so we come to B&C for more info.

 

GW doesn't really have anyone to turn to when it wants to ask for strategic advice, they don't make a B&C for corporations (well, they kinda do, it's called Davos I suppose).  It could look for a more successful player in its own industry...but unfortunately it is the biggest player of its type.  Thus, maybe just peeking at an adjacent industry like, say, the video game industry, is maybe the next best thing.

 

The problem is that I agree with the sentiment in this thread, the video game industry as a whole seems to be headed the wrong direction.  Certain video game companies specifically might have something worth learning from.  I am noticing GW really picked up on releasing stuff before they're ready and just patching it afterwards, that's a really bad habit, instead of learning the good things.

 

Further Edit - KFC (yes, the Kentucky Fried Chicken KFC) is releasing a video game console that also warms chicken.  I thought this was a gag, but apparently it's happening.

Edited December 28, 2020 by N1SB

[Malios]

I've said it before in a different thread: GW are the gateway, the dominant force in the industry... And they've overstretched themselves. Significantly.

 

Hence their games are an inconsistent mess at the best of times. Their design and development team are stretched too thinly to keep up with demand.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Malios

[templargdt]

N1SB- Really solid post, great read.  Thanks.

[Focslain]

 

Further Edit - KFC (yes, the Kentucky Fried Chicken KFC) is releasing a video game console that also warms chicken.  I thought this was a gag, but apparently it's happening.

 

Between that, the Dating VN and the Spanish Soap Opera starring Mario Lopez (as the Colonel no less) one has to wonder if the marketing department has been hitting the sauce and I'm not talking alcohol.

 

Not joking too, these things exist.

[MegaVolt87]

I've said it before in a different thread: GW are the gateway, the dominant force in the industry... And they've overstretched themselves. Significantly.

 

Hence their games are an inconsistent mess at the best of times. Their design and development team are stretched too thinly to keep up with demand.

 

You have that completely wrong. For the most part GW is pretty hands off in the quality of these titles. Their concerns are the preservation of the IP integrity and only ensuring devs don't do anything crazy like try to kill off RG permanently in their title. The rare exception has been TW-Warhammer where GW has worked on call, especially on the upcoming third title with Kislev and Calthy etc, which are going to be 1:1 with what the old world team is doing for tabletop aesthetics + design wise. 

[Rik Lightstar]

I've said it before in a different thread: GW are the gateway, the dominant force in the industry... And they've overstretched themselves. Significantly.

 

Hence their games are an inconsistent mess at the best of times. Their design and development team are stretched too thinly to keep up with demand.

That's a hot take.

 

8th & 9th of 40k are great improvements on previous editions, better balanced and issues FAQd and Errata'd quickly.

 

AoS 2nd Edition is a really solid game and they're doing interesting stuff with the background once people get over any attachments they have to The Old World. The recent model ranges have been fantastic.

 

Bloodbowl Second Season seems good although I've not been able to play it yet due to lockdown, with some interesting ways to change things up while keeping the original feel of the game.

 

Adeptus Titanicus is and always was an homage to "Old School" games from the early 90s and is an entertaining skirmish system when you break it down.

 

Warhammer Underworlds is in my opinion the best balanced and designed game they've ever released and competes well with games from other companies in the same "fast play, tournament" setting.

 

Some people pine for templates, armour facings and ranked units in their fantasy setting. But these yearnings don't make games bad.

 

Rik