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Engine Kill: Cerastus Knight-Atrapos


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25 replies to this topic

#1
Marshal Loss

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WHC article

 

Spoiler


Edited by Marshal Loss, 24 November 2020 - 02:46 PM.

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#2
SkimaskMohawk

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Wow, they took a knight who's whole thing was short ranged, anti monstrosity duty and made it terrible.

Macro extinction only works agains reavers and up? K.

Why the grav has no potential for the vortex rule is confusing. It was an off chance, but it was what made it cool. Give it the same mechanic of potential damage. They went from potential high damage weapon to weird light cc and anti shield damage.

The lascutter is baffling. It was a D melee and ranged weapon. It lost its range and now is a melta weapon (meaning you need to be within an inch to use fully) but has worse strength than the normal knight cc weapons? It has worse strength than the melta option for questoris arms or pintle? What's going on here???

I had a full sized atropos and loved how unique it was. It was my most anticipated release of AT. I can't believe how badly they missed the mark for its rules.
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#3
Trokair

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If these are plastic that will be an instant buy, but I suspect that like the last ones that they are resin so will languish in the maybe pile.

Edited by Trokair, 24 November 2020 - 03:02 PM.

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#4
SkimaskMohawk

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Oh also missing it's thigh armour. Good thing the sculpts are as phoned in as the rules.
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#5
Iron Hands Fanatic

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Wow, they took a knight who's whole thing was short ranged, anti monstrosity duty and made it terrible.

Macro extinction only works agains reavers and up? K.

Why the grav has no potential for the vortex rule is confusing. It was an off chance, but it was what made it cool. Give it the same mechanic of potential damage. They went from potential high damage weapon to weird light cc and anti shield damage.

The lascutter is baffling. It was a D melee and ranged weapon. It lost its range and now is a melta weapon (meaning you need to be within an inch to use fully) but has worse strength than the normal knight cc weapons? It has worse strength than the melta option for questoris arms or pintle? What's going on here???

I had a full sized atropos and loved how unique it was. It was my most anticipated release of AT. I can't believe how badly they missed the mark for its rules.

 

The fusion trait always applies at short range, so the lascutter will always be using a d10 for its armour roll which does make it a bit more palatable - your average hit will be rolling 11s even without flank and rear facing bonuses with the potential to spike up to 16 so charges with these could be absolutely brutal, although the base strength of 6 means an unlucky combat phase could leave you without a single direct hit which sucks.

 

I agree the profile for the graviton-singularity cannon is a bit confusing - although the concussive trait does work for any hits that aren't deflected by voids the ability to mess around with the facing of a target Titan is nice if you manage to strip it's voids with something else (although in melee range, the blast and potential to boot the titan out of reach of your weapons does seem a risk, although it could be a fun way to prevent retaliation after hacking up a melee titan with the lascutters).

 

Given how clutch lancers can be with their main strength 8 weapon (which has the same average armour roll of 11), these could be pretty neat (if just another cerastus melee threat) but only time will tell.

 

Edit: thinking about it, I feel like the best way to think about these is as a variation on the lancer profile - similar melee weapons (with the potential to spiker higher on the Atropos), similar ranged weapons (with the Atropos having a longer range and swapping rending for concussive) and additional durability (blessed autosimulacra & ionic flare shields vs the +1 to all ion saves). Macro extinction protocols even mean the accuracy bonus on the Atropos' lascutter is the same as the shock lance against reavers & above, so I imagine they'll play pretty similarly on the table, we'll just have to wait for the points cost to see if they're as viable.


Edited by Iron Hands Fanatic, 24 November 2020 - 03:21 PM.

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#6
Mendi Warrior

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I would love if they were plastic but I'm pretty sure they will be resin, a feeling reinforced by the "Subscribe to the Forge World newsletter" at the end of the article.

A pitty they are missing their thigh armour.

 

I would love to see the other warbringer type being released, or a new titan class. Not holding my breath ...



#7
SkimaskMohawk

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Ah you're right on the fusion and short range. But the thing is the lancers deliver consistent damage with str 8. Against warhounds you need a 2+ to start breaking armour. Atropos needs a 4+. 83% vs 70%. It also doesn't fix the fact the D weapon is weaker than the questoris melta cannon. Also lost its ranged component (compare that to the lancer still getting its ranged component).

The other problem with concussive in melee is it can make the titan swing into you, causing a collision. It's really an anti-knight gun and has nothing of what made it cool to use.

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 24 November 2020 - 03:37 PM.


#8
Charlo

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Awesome little models, love 'em!



#9
Iron Hands Fanatic

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Ah you're right on the fusion and short range. But the thing is the lancers deliver consistent damage with str 8. Against warhounds you need a 2+ to start breaking armour. Atropos needs a 4+. 83% vs 60%. It also doesn't fix the fact the D weapon is weaker than the questoris melta cannon. Also lost its ranged component (compare that to the lancer still getting its ranged component).

The other problem with concussive in melee is it can make the titan swing into you, causing a collision. It's really an anti-knight gun and has nothing of what made it cool to use.

 

Certainly true, the Lancers seem like the more consistent option while these have the potential to do some wild damage/ use concussive to mess around with both Titans and Knights if the dice are kind.

 

I will say to your point about the melee weapon's strength compared to the questoris fusion weapon that *all* the 30k Knight melee weapons are strength D - melee weapons clearly have a different metric of conversion to ranged weapons given their enhanced ability to make targeted attacks - making a targeted shot in melee the lascutter is hitting on a functional 2+ while the questoris melta cannon would be looking at a 4+.

 

I do wonder if the loss of the vortex capability on the graviton weapon is due to the 28mm version's ability to damage itself via the same mechanism (although rending might have been an easy add on to give the potential to push damage higher). I was thinking the loss of the ranged profile on the lascutter is probably because of its 8" range which becomes kinda negligable at AT scale, although the cerastus 18" ranged weapon gets a 12" profile in Titanicus so who knows.


Edited by Iron Hands Fanatic, 24 November 2020 - 03:55 PM.


#10
Noserenda

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Urgh, its frustrating to see a good Knight design killed by being a resin release.

I mean the junk rules dont help either, but rules change.


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#11
LetsYouDown

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Oh also missing it's thigh armour. Good thing the sculpts are as phoned in as the rules.

THAT'S WHAT IT IS!!! I was staring at these for ages thinking that the legs looked really wrong but couldn't put my finger on why. Oof.

Yeah, I'd like the Knight releases to be over now thanks. This is good news to me in that it's one more Knight sculpt they can't re-use until they have to introduce something new, preferably an actual Titan.


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#12
SkimaskMohawk

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Ah you're right on the fusion and short range. But the thing is the lancers deliver consistent damage with str 8. Against warhounds you need a 2+ to start breaking armour. Atropos needs a 4+. 83% vs 60%. It also doesn't fix the fact the D weapon is weaker than the questoris melta cannon. Also lost its ranged component (compare that to the lancer still getting its ranged component).

The other problem with concussive in melee is it can make the titan swing into you, causing a collision. It's really an anti-knight gun and has nothing of what made it cool to use.


Certainly true, the Lancers seem like the more consistent option while these have the potential to do some wild damage/ use concussive to mess around with both Titans and Knights if the dice are kind.

I will say to your point about the melee weapon's strength compared to the questoris fusion weapon that *all* the 30k Knight melee weapons are strength D - melee weapons clearly have a different metric of conversion to ranged weapons given their enhanced ability to make targeted attacks - making a targeted shot in melee the lascutter is hitting on a functional 2+ while the questoris melta cannon would be looking at a 4+.

I do wonder if the loss of the vortex capability on the graviton weapon is due to the 28mm version's ability to damage itself via the same mechanism (although rending might have been an easy add on to give the potential to push damage higher). I was thinking the loss of the ranged profile on the lascutter is probably because of its 8" range which becomes kinda negligable at AT scale, although the cerastus 18" ranged weapon gets a 12" profile in Titanicus so who knows.

The melee conversion argument falls a bit short when you remember that the sword on the cerastus is a higher strength than the las cutter in AT, but was str 10 in 40k. And the melta cannon still just straight up is stronger than the lascutter. So is the pintle that autohits.

Also didn't remember the graviton had armourbane on its 40k rules. It was really quite strong against vehicles. And it's trash here. They could have easily made up rules for the overcharge like a d10 or whatever.

#13
Noserenda

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Yeah normally im against extra rules, but seeing as they went and made it blast for some reason its already unnecessarily fiddly to fire anyway, you could have it trigger off rolling a hit on the scatter dice.



#14
Robbienw

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Very nice, an insta buy for me.

These are sure to be resin as they have similar detailing to the styrix and magaera, which wouldn’t quite look the same if it was done in plastic. I didn’t actually realise the 40k scale atrapos had extra thigh plating.

One step closer to having all the knights now, just the Acastus Asterius and the Dominus Castellan/Valiant to go!

#15
Hellex_The_Thanatar

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The legs look wonky as heck without the thigh armour. Cheaped out much?

Edited by Hellex_The_Thanatar, 24 November 2020 - 05:56 PM.


#16
Mandragola

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Weird they missed the leg armour.

 

Overall I think these guys will be a sort of optional extra. Lancers are probably the more reliable option still, especially with their better shields. However, these guys will hit more reliably and do more reliable damage to weakened locations (as 1 is less likely on a D10), and they're more able to cause crits. They're the only kind of knight that can crit out other knights in melee I think - though they're not too likely to do it.

 

If I had a worry about these things it was that they'd be too good, like the Acastus. People would have to buy new resin knights to replace their plastic ones. That's not what the've done. Instead, it looks like the admech versions of the Questoris and Cerastus knights are both quite interesting, with some unusual and hopefully fun abilities, but far from essential. I think that's a pretty good result actually.


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C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should really be painting Crimson Fists.

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#17
Robbienw

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They probably missed out the plates on the thighs because they couldn’t mold them properly on the one piece legs. All the other plates are like the 40k model and it’s not like it would have taken them long to put the plate in on the computer.

#18
MegaVolt87

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Why not do two part legs then to fit the correct armour ? 


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#19
Robbienw

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Why not indeed. I don’t know for sure if the legs actually are one piece though, I was surmising based on the styrix and magaera models.

But cheaping out as a reason for missing out the leg plates seems like an unlikely answer to me, given they appear to have replicated all the other specific atrapos details from the 40k model.

#20
PeteySödes

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Guys the Cerastes knights don't have thigh armor....

 

I dont know what the issue is.



#21
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#22
KaosRaptor

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To clarify, most Cerastus Knights don't have thigh armour. The Cerastus Knight-Atrapos is the exception that does.



#23
MegaVolt87

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Guys the Cerastes knights don't have thigh armor....
 
I dont know what the issue is.


Might not be missing an extra plate, but the singular one definitely looking a bit short then.
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#24
PeteySödes

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Gotchya fair enough. After having worked on my Castigator for the Better part a lot a year I guess I’ve got blinders on. Carry on! :D

#25
Mendi Warrior

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I shot an email to FW customer service to ask if what was shown are the definitive models or a work-in-progress, explicitly mentioning the missing armor parts. I'll share the answer when I got one.






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