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Mortis


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#401
LetsYouDown

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like...each perpetual possibly is a collection of lived experiences of other people/perpetuals/shamen?

Sure! That's one way it could work. I'm not hard-set on nailing down what the Emperor is, or the perpetuals. I prefer it to be left open and to fill it with our weird perceptions. There are some really cool theories out there! I like trying to keep them in play, in spite of how much has been revealed lately.
 

 

Sounds like head canon to make a terrible addition bearable. tongue.png

whistlingW.gif


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#402
DukeLeto69

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I'm not hard-set on nailing down what the Emperor is, or the perpetuals. I prefer it to be left open and to fill it with our weird perceptions. There are some really cool theories out there! I like trying to keep them in play, in spite of how much has been revealed lately.
whistlingW.gif

Personally this does go to the heart of the problem of going back and fleshing out/revealing the ancient history in the lore. I know it was about ££££ and we have had some great stories but maybe, just maybe they should not have touched the HH?

It is the same with Dune. The ancient history there (interestingly 10k years before the present) was The Butlerian Jihad which was referred to in the glossary and mentioned by characters but all we knew was it was the catalyst for why they don’t have AI and humanity has evolved with “mentats” or human computers etc. Then Frank Herberts son Brian decides to write some prequels and...big let down, it’s basically Terminator!

If the lore has been talking about things and hinting at them for decades, the fans expectations or assumptions can never be met.

Edited by DukeLeto69, 29 April 2021 - 06:32 AM.

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#403
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I think I've mentioned before, but outside of the 'canon' milestones that we have had for decades I just want one thing.

The Emperors admitting he made a deal with Chaos.

It's been implied, in the works around Moloch I believe, but I want him to say it, to solidify my theory that the series is really a classical tragedy, and everything is His fault. :)
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#404
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I do think the HH series has some excellent gems. The Butlerian Jihad trilogy was just plain bad...really bland writing with flat characters.

I'd also argue that the relationship between modern 40K and the HH is more like the relationship between modern Dune (Heretics and Chapter House) and the Leto II-era.

The relationship between either modern 40K or the HH and the late DAoT is like the relationship between either modern Dune or the Leto II-era and the Butlerian period.

Modern Dune still lives in the shadow of Leto II and many institutions span both periods...but the Butlerian period is truly unrecognizable.
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#405
Marshal Loss

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yeah, if every major historical event is 'cos of perpetuals (including the emp) then it removes agency from baseline humanity to affect the world around them

Yeah, but that's only if they actually did live through those events. They could all be weapons left out of the same box, imbued with the memories of dead shaman souls or something. Totally delusional group of warp-spawned not-truly-human monsters. It's not even 100% clear if Oll & co ever leave the warp through most of their journey until they arrive on Terra, or if most of what they're seeing are warp delusions. Traveling through time, or traveling through what the warp is reflecting at you...?

At least that's my read, and I'm sticking to it, because it makes perpetuals tolerable for me teehee.gif

 

I like the cut of your jib


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#406
Just123456

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like...each perpetual possibly is a collection of lived experiences of other people/perpetuals/shamen?

Sure! That's one way it could work. I'm not hard-set on nailing down what the Emperor is, or the perpetuals. I prefer it to be left open and to fill it with our weird perceptions. There are some really cool theories out there! I like trying to keep them in play, in spite of how much has been revealed lately.


Sounds like head canon to make a terrible addition bearable. :P

:whistlingW:
Doubtful. The DAOT notion is from a war criminal who was executed for stealing water, so she is unreliable and would purposefully mislead. And ADB discredited it on Reddit. And Oll Persson has things that prove the memories of The Perpetuals. And he was one of Jason's Argonauts.

The Cabal recruited Damon Prytanis at Iwo Jima. So the memories are real.

Edited by Just123456, 30 April 2021 - 03:21 PM.


#407
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Doubtful. The DAOT notion is from a war criminal who was executed for stealing water, so she is unreliable and would purposefully mislead. And ADB discredited it on Reddit. And Oll Persson has things that prove the memories of The Perpetuals. And he was one of Jason's Argonauts.

The Cabal recruited Damon Prytanis at Iwo Jima. So the memories are real.

 

It was an idea bounced around outside of print, too. And I've seen ADB discredit anyone that tries to firmly define things one way or another. I've learned not to judge anything based on "but the author said this...." and I've been personally responsible for a fair amount of that. I don't think they appreciate when we weaponize anything they say to pull "actually"s on each other.

But I did completely forget Damon Prytanis even existed, frankly. Some of the perpetuals just blur together in my head. I don't know man, I could probably come up with something if I read back to whatever he's in (Old Earth?), but that seems like a waste of time when I'm confident I could do the mental gymnastics. I'm going to skip the step where I do the work and just assume I made it work. That's how invested I am in the perpetual plot stuff.


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#408
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Doubtful. The DAOT notion is from a war criminal who was executed for stealing water, so she is unreliable and would purposefully mislead. And ADB discredited it on Reddit. And Oll Persson has things that prove the memories of The Perpetuals. And he was one of Jason's Argonauts.
The Cabal recruited Damon Prytanis at Iwo Jima. So the memories are real.

It was an idea bounced around outside of print, too. And I've seen ADB discredit anyone that tries to firmly define things one way or another. I've learned not to judge anything based on "but the author said this...." and I've been personally responsible for a fair amount of that. I don't think they appreciate when we weaponize anything they say to pull "actually"s on each other.
But I did completely forget Damon Prytanis even existed, frankly. Some of the perpetuals just blur together in my head. I don't know man, I could probably come up with something if I read back to whatever he's in (Old Earth?), but that seems like a waste of time when I'm confident I could do the mental gymnastics. I'm going to skip the step where I do the work and just assume I made it work. That's how invested I am in the perpetual plot stuff.
Where was it bounced around outside of print? ADB said we can safely say Koja Zu is wrong, and that was over two years ago on Reddit.

And ADB is not one to set things in stone and is vague about everything. And with all the fluff meetings ADB has been to, we can trust him.

Edited by Just123456, 30 April 2021 - 05:12 PM.


#409
Lucien Eilam

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I'm three quarters in and I'm continuously thinking " this should've been 2 or 3 novellas".

 

If you read the author’s notes at the back, it seems this book was never part of the original plan. The novel exists basically just because John was sad about not getting to write any more Heresy/Siege stuff after finishing The Solar War.

 

I don’t begrudge him that, it’s as well-written as ever and personally I always get a real kick out of John’s depictions of Titan/Knight combat.

 

But I think all the really meaty post-Saturnine plot points were probably already earmarked for the rest of the series, and a lot of this would otherwise have been sub-plots in other novels, short stories or just glossed over completely. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Abaddon reporting back to Horus after the Saturnine Wall fiasco in A D-B’s entry, for example, so they couldn’t do it here.


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#410
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Perpetuals are not objectively good or bad for the setting. They're "modern" 40K's version of the old Sensei lore (and arguably less ridiculous than the Sensei).
My main gripe with Mortis is...do we really need a SoT novel focusing on Titans? Why not just keep Titans in the background?
The SoT is like the climactic weeks of the Illiad . It should, IMO, focus on Primarch and Astartes struggles with other forces forming the backdrop. Each SoT main entry is precious. A book on Titans is a bit of waste really.
As for Perpetuals, Imperial Army, Cultists, Titans, Arik Taranis, Emperor's Children depravery and the like...only have them enter the SoT main entries if/when their actions would be critical to plot advancement. Their less-than-critical activities could be covered in SoT anthologies or non-limited edition novellas.

of

Do you want to try contacting Dan Abnett about studying on the Upper Paleolithic? So he can be historically accurate on that time if he writes about Oll Persson's life back then.

I would contact him, though he is hard to get to.

Edited by Just123456, 30 April 2021 - 08:41 PM.


#411
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I'm three quarters in and I'm continuously thinking " this should've been 2 or 3 novellas".

If you read the author’s notes at the back, it seems this book was never part of the original plan. The novel exists basically just because John was sad about not getting to write any more Heresy/Siege stuff after finishing The Solar War.

I don’t begrudge him that, it’s as well-written as ever and personally I always get a real kick out of John’s depictions of Titan/Knight combat.

But I think all the really meaty post-Saturnine plot points were probably already earmarked for the rest of the series, and a lot of this would otherwise have been sub-plots in other novels, short stories or just glossed over completely. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Abaddon reporting back to Horus after the Saturnine Wall fiasco in A D-B’s entry, for example, so they couldn’t do it here.
I wouldn't say that is quite the implication of what he writes in the afterword...

Spoiler


Edited by Petitioner's City, 30 April 2021 - 08:09 PM.

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#412
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Thx for that Petitioners City.

Both an enticing glimpse at what could have been (and I know French is great) and some very clear words on my exact issue that I suspected was fact. :D
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#413
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Question: French has some interesting warp scenes in this book between The Emperor and Horus, and he did that in Solar War as well, but have none of the other authors picked up on that? I did a quick browse through books 2 and 3 for instance and didnt find any, did I miss it? What about Saturnine?



#414
Bobss

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Question: French has some interesting warp scenes in this book between The Emperor and Horus, and he did that in Solar War as well, but have none of the other authors picked up on that? I did a quick browse through books 2 and 3 for instance and didnt find any, did I miss it? What about Saturnine?

 

There are none in Saturnine

 

In fact, Abnett points out that Malcador, in the presence of Jenetia Krole, is an even frailer old man than usual. Her enormous null aura is stripping his guise of being... a less frail old man, I guess? It's literally pointed out when they're all chatting together. It clashes with the second Emps Vs. Horus warp-sequence in The Solar War in which Malcador appears as a young man dressed in gold. Don't get me wrong, a warp-sequence is a warp-sequence at the end of the day, and Malcador could've appeared to Emps as Britney Spears, but it supports the theory some people hold that Malcador's frailty is a glamour - similar to Emps being a relic from the DAOT, although apparently believing that will cause ADB to break into my house and murder my family (but I think I'll take the risk)

 

It's like Jaghatai Khan being a prick to several senior officers in the Bhab Bastion despite the Khan's usual shrewdness when dealing with humans, notably Illya Ravallion (best woman) and Su-Kassen (second-best woman - Lotara Who?)

 

Fortunately for Abnett, Saturnine is good enough to cover these moments up


Edited by Bobss, 30 April 2021 - 11:01 PM.


#415
Just123456

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Question: French has some interesting warp scenes in this book between The Emperor and Horus, and he did that in Solar War as well, but have none of the other authors picked up on that? I did a quick browse through books 2 and 3 for instance and didnt find any, did I miss it? What about Saturnine?


There are none in Saturnine

In fact, Abnett points out that Malcador, in the presence of Jenetia Krole, is an even frailer old man than usual. Her enormous null aura is stripping his guise of being... a less frail old man, I guess? It's literally pointed out when they're all chatting together. It clashes with the second Emps Vs. Horus warp-sequence in The Solar War in which Malcador appears as a young man dressed in gold. Don't get me wrong, a warp-sequence is a warp-sequence at the end of the day, and Malcador could've appeared to Emps as Britney Spears, but it supports the theory some people hold that Malcador's frailty is a glamour - similar to Emps being a relic from the DAOT, although apparently believing that will cause ADB to break into my house and murder my family (but I think I'll take the risk)

It's like Jaghatai Khan being a prick to several senior officers in the Bhab Bastion despite the Khan's usual shrewdness when dealing with humans, notably Illya Ravallion (best woman) and Su-Kassen (second-best woman - Lotara Who?)

Fortunately for Abnett, Saturnine is good enough to cover these moments up
The Emperor being from the DAOT is from an unreliable narrator (a character who was executed for stealing water). While we are at it, why don't we say Erebus is proof the Emperor wants to become a God?

And the Perpetuals such as Oll Persson discredit it. And if that is not enough, then the Athame short story shows the Emperor fighting a Chaos follower named Gog. The Athame short story is from the perspective of the Athame blade, as it has a sort of consciousness.

Edited by Just123456, 01 May 2021 - 12:34 AM.


#416
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Mortis – John French

 

Starting with a disclaimer: I like this book. A lot. I recognize it has several shortcomings, and will try to address them fairly, but I’m going to be writing this review (as is the case for most of my reviews) purely based on my response and not really with any attempt to be objective. Apply this knowledge to my comments.

 

Mortis. Siege book 5. Why was this series 8 books? We’re over half way through and still nobody knows.

 

The good news is that this book is great. Or, at least, near everything I was looking for out of it is delivered upon splendidly.

 

Spoiler

 

Conclusion

 

This will not be a book for everyone. It was, however, a book for me.

 

The prose is a joy. The tone is superb. The action is satisfying and damnit, it’s just the kind of book I want to see more of, despite its flaws.

 

This is a solid 8.5 out of 10, as much as it’s a hard To Taste. Some people are going to despise this. I personally liked it better than Solar War.

 

 

Current Siege Ranking:

 

Saturnine > Mortis > The Solar War > Fury of Magnus > Sons of the Selenar > The First Wall > Lost and the Damned


Edited by Roomsky, 01 May 2021 - 12:49 AM.

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#417
Just123456

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Mortis – John French


Starting with a disclaimer: I like this book. A lot. I recognize it has several shortcomings, and will try to address them fairly, but I’m going to be writing this review (as is the case for most of my reviews) purely based on my response and not really with any attempt to be objective. Apply this knowledge to my comments.

Mortis. Siege book 5. Why was this series 8 books? We’re over half way through and still nobody knows.

The good news is that this book is great. Or, at least, near everything I was looking for out of it is delivered upon splendidly.

Spoiler



Conclusion

This will not be a book for everyone. It was, however, a book for me.

The prose is a joy. The tone is superb. The action is satisfying and damnit, it’s just the kind of book I want to see more of, despite its flaws.

This is a solid 8.5 out of 10, as much as it’s a hard To Taste. Some people are going to despise this. I personally liked it better than Solar War.



Current Siege Ranking:


Saturnine > Mortis > The Solar War > Fury of Magnus > Sons of the Selenar > The First Wall > Lost and the Damned

We knew in older books (mostly Mark of Calth) that Jason and the Argonauts were real with Oll Persson. Oll Persson even mused about the sirens he came across with Jason's Argonauts and implied the sirens were warp entities.

Edited by Just123456, 01 May 2021 - 12:55 AM.

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#418
StrangerOrders

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Good review Roomsky and nothing I can call unfair, just a dramatic difference in preferences.

I will say this though, I think I would have violently hated the Armiger less had I not read Conquest first.

Because this book does house Vyronii a VIOLENT disservice. Not least because between this, Titandeath and Vengeful Spirit, I am starting to think someone at BL just hates Knights in general.

Actually, the specific arc of the Vyronii elements is especially infuriating because Chaos BS is actually specifically something they are supposed to be great at countering...

Their moniker is literally 'God-Eaters'!

Edited by StrangerOrders, 01 May 2021 - 01:12 AM.

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#419
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Good review Roomsky and nothing I can call unfair, just a dramatic difference in preferences.

I will say this though, I think I would have violently hated the Armiger less had I not read Conquest first.

Because this book does house Vyronii a VIOLENT disservice. Not least because between this, Titandeath and Vengeful Spirit, I am starting to think someone at BL just hates Knights in general.

Actually, the specific arc of the Vyronii elements is especially infuriating because Chaos BS is actually specifically something they are supposed to be great at countering...

Their moniker is literally 'God-Eaters'!

 

This is fair, I've yet to read a full Black Book ('s worth of lore.) They hardly came across as anything especially deep nor especially offensive. If anything I liked them because the last time I read about Knights, in Titandeath, I found their every appearance a pointless waste of space (the cruelty on display here was at least a bit engaging.)

 

I've never thought it's quite fair to say "the author should have done this" once you have the power of hindsight, but I wouldn't have minded the better parts of Acastia's portions getting folded into Tetracauron's. (And probably Corswain's getting more closely linked with Perturabo's.) But it is what it is. 


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#420
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Good review Roomsky and nothing I can call unfair, just a dramatic difference in preferences.

I will say this though, I think I would have violently hated the Armiger less had I not read Conquest first.

Because this book does house Vyronii a VIOLENT disservice. Not least because between this, Titandeath and Vengeful Spirit, I am starting to think someone at BL just hates Knights in general.

Actually, the specific arc of the Vyronii elements is especially infuriating because Chaos BS is actually specifically something they are supposed to be great at countering...

Their moniker is literally 'God-Eaters'!

 

This is fair, I've yet to read a full Black Book ('s worth of lore.) They hardly came across as anything especially deep nor especially offensive. If anything I liked them because the last time I read about Knights, in Titandeath, I found their every appearance a pointless waste of space (the cruelty on display here was at least a bit engaging.)

 

I've never thought it's quite fair to say "the author should have done this" once you have the power of hindsight, but I wouldn't have minded the better parts of Acastia's portions getting folded into Tetracauron's. (And probably Corswain's getting more closely linked with Perturabo's.) But it is what it is. 

 

Well, light spoilers for a book which most likely won't read but...

 

Spoiler

 

It actively angers me.

 

...And now I remember I need to finish up those BB reviews I was doing a while back.


Edited by StrangerOrders, 01 May 2021 - 01:38 AM.

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#421
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Yet another example of what I would love, filled with what would probably tilt me off the face of the earth.

 

Everything is saying "Don't buy this book." and yet...


Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
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A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#422
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Yet another example of what I would love, filled with what would probably tilt me off the face of the earth.

 

Everything is saying "Don't buy this book." and yet...

 

I think it would piss you off too much to be worth, honestly.

 

Oll is at the core of the thing and the whole endeavor is clearly setting up whatever twist Abnett's going to pull come book 8. Everything you love about French is here, and there are honestly parts where IMO he's showing the others how its done, but it probably wouldn't justify the spikes in blood pressure.


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#423
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Yet another example of what I would love, filled with what would probably tilt me off the face of the earth.

 

Everything is saying "Don't buy this book." and yet...

 

I think it would piss you off too much to be worth, honestly.

 

Oll is at the core of the thing and the whole endeavor is clearly setting up whatever twist Abnett's going to pull come book 8. Everything you love about French is here, and there are honestly parts where IMO he's showing the others how its done, but it probably wouldn't justify the spikes in blood pressure.

 

 

Exactly what I'm terrified of, and at this point expecting.

 

I can actually feel pain already building in my chest just reading the bolded part.


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A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#424
Marshal Loss

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Yet another example of what I would love, filled with what would probably tilt me off the face of the earth.

 

Everything is saying "Don't buy this book." and yet...

 

I think it would piss you off too much to be worth, honestly.

 

Oll is at the core of the thing and the whole endeavor is clearly setting up whatever twist Abnett's going to pull come book 8. Everything you love about French is here, and there are honestly parts where IMO he's showing the others how its done, but it probably wouldn't justify the spikes in blood pressure.

 

 

Exactly what I'm terrified of, and at this point expecting.

 

I can actually feel pain already building in my chest just reading the bolded part.

 

You and me both. At least we get Wraight and ADB before that comes to pass.


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#425
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I would've given Dan the penultimate book rather than the last.

Dan's authorial voice is quite different from the rest of the BL stable. This could mean the final book of the HH/SoT reads nothing like what came before if he decided to go for a less conventional wrap-up.




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