Mortis

[Lucien Eilam]

I wouldn't say that is quite the implication of what he writes in the afterword...

 

When he finished The Solar War, there was no plan for him to write another in the series:

 

So, why was I a bit sad? Nick Kyme asked me the same thing, and I said, ‘Because I won’t get to do that again. That is it for me, now.’

 

He smiled and said: ‘It doesn’t have to be.’

 

So, I came back for more.

You think they got that deep without having planned what the rest of the series would look like and who would be writing it?

[Scribe]

I was extremely put out by that as well. "Oh you just want to throw another book into the series? Go nuts."

 

Meanwhile, I look up how many HH Books we had that didnt need to be written...

 

Anyway. I'm trying to figure out the twist Dan is going to push on us, and I figure it will be all about cycles, the nature of divinity, and what exactly happened in that room with the Emperor, Horus, and Ol, and what comes after that event.

 

Who really sits on the throne?

[Roomsky]

I don't know if that reading of it is necessarily what he meant.

 

What I got out of it is: They planned a rough outline for the Siege, gave an approximation of what would be in each book, and settled on 8. French thought Solar War would be his only entry, but for one reason or another, they had an empty slot for a writer to fill. As others have theorized, it could be that Haley was pulling double duty but had to bow out for Dawn of Fire. I didn't read it as them groping in the dark at all.

 

I mean this book is Oll's whole Siege setup and

Perturabo

 leaves. I don't think you can just yoink these things out of a White Scars book or a Blood Angels book and still meet the intended length or plot balance (especially considering the quality of the writers upcoming.)

 

Regarding Oll and twists, all I'm expecting is

for him to pop out of a cut in reality and shank the Emperor. Mortis makes it clear they aren't on good terms. This'll probably replace The Emperor's hesitation due to the love of his son while Horus lays the smackdown. Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Roomsky

[Marshal Loss]

Because this book does house Vyronii a VIOLENT disservice.

 

Actually, the specific arc of the Vyronii elements is especially infuriating because Chaos BS is actually specifically something they are supposed to be great at countering...

For the record, French had a significant hand in writing the original Vyronii lore in Conquest. I don't think there's anything in Mortis that is even remotely incompatible with what we find in the former, and Vyronii definitely aren't some kind of super anti-Chaos specialists.

[Scribe]

I'd be 100% fine with that Roomsky, lets hope.

[StrangerOrders]

 

Because this book does house Vyronii a VIOLENT disservice.

Actually, the specific arc of the Vyronii elements is especially infuriating because Chaos BS is actually specifically something they are supposed to be great at countering...

 

For the record, French had a significant hand in writing the original Vyronii lore in Conquest. I don't think there's anything in Mortis that is even remotely incompatible with what we find in the former, and Vyronii definitely aren't some kind of super anti-Chaos specialists.

100% disagree. I did not mean Chaos in general so much as the very specific way it was leveraged into the choices made in this book. (Namely as a means of Mental Strain).

 

And it applies to the character shown in the cast. If they were from an otherwise represented faction, I'd just brush it off as exceptions to the rule. Its much leds tolerable when these are likely the only Vyronii we will ever see.

 

I do like French and PoD is my favorite HH novel and I am well aware of the work he has thankfully put into FW. The man's quality as an author is not something I am up for debating just because I see this as his worst book, its farcical to feel obligated to like everything an author does just because you generally rate him highly.

 

If you perhaps read it, my original review similarly expressed displeasure with Andromeda's appearance despite specifically noting her being my favorite French-original character.

 

Just because an Author made a character which I like does not obligate me to always like his decision making-if indeed it was even his decision to make given the nature of the Siege-Books.

 

In fact, probably the only place in BL where you can really make a 1-1 critique of characterization with any fairness IS when comparing two books and casts largely generated by the same author.

 

I will however respect your opinion on the matter. I am very much content to be the minority opinion on this one.

Edited May 1, 2021 by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Loss]

Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Are they really though? We can of course only speculate, but that is not the impression I get. ADB regularly mentions how much he venerates Abnett, and reading Saturnine, for example, what stood out to me was how much Abnett was allowed to put in a single book relative to the other siege novels. Deaths, character appearances, the works. Now themes/plotlines/characters of minor import taken almost almost exclusively from his writing, taking a macro view of a 50+ novel series, are being thrust centre-stage immediately prior to the main event.

 

Before somebody leaps on me, I'm not implying for a moment that Abnett is some kind of tyrannical figure who oppresses the HH writing team, but I've been in similar scenarios in academia where folks with status and reputation unintentionally dominate collaborative projects. Others from different walks of life will have experienced the same thing. I think that's what's happening here.

 

Maybe I'm just too negative. We'll see soon enough! Like Scribe, I hope you're right.

 

 

its farcical to feel obligated to like everything an author does just because you generally rate him highly.

Don't be absurd, nobody said anything of the sort. I myself was critical of Mortis, and I love French's work.

 

 

In fact, probably the only place in BL where you can really make a 1-1 critique of characterization with any fairness IS when comparing two books and casts largely generated by the same author.

We're talking about a Knight house here, with all that entails. Even a cursory glance of the Vyronii entry in Conquest by the uninitiated will show that they are far from mono-dimensional, with numerous sects (e.g. the branches that accrued glory as part of the Great Crusade, those who remain home, those accompanying RT fleets, etc), even before we take into account the changes wrought upon an institution after a decade of galaxy-spanning war. Not everybody/everything has to be an exemplar or a walking stereotype. There is plenty of room for a wealth of characterizations and personalities under the broader Vyronii umbrella. Their experience with monsters/"mental strain" is also far from unique so far as Knight houses are concerned; if folks resistant to monsters/alien terrors/telepathic nonsense were resistant to Chaos, then Horus would have been leading a football team sized rebellion.

 

I think, looking at the actual texts, it's clear that you've built them up in your head to be something they're not, but we're all entitled to our opinions. I just think saying a book does a "violent disservice" to a faction is...a tad hyperbolic.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[DukeLeto69]

I don't know if that reading of it is necessarily what he meant.

 

What I got out of it is: They planned a rough outline for the Siege, gave an approximation of what would be in each book, and settled on 8. French thought Solar War would be his only entry, but for one reason or another, they had an empty slot for a writer to fill. As others have theorized, it could be that Haley was pulling double duty but had to bow out for Dawn of Fire. I didn't read it as them groping in the dark at all.

 

I mean this book is Oll's whole Siege setup and

Perturabo

leaves. I don't think you can just yoink these things out of a White Scars book or a Blood Angels book and still meet the intended length or plot balance (especially considering the quality of the writers upcoming.)

 

Regarding Oll and twists, all I'm expecting is

for him to pop out of a cut in reality and shank the Emperor. Mortis makes it clear they aren't on good terms. This'll probably replace The Emperor's hesitation due to the love of his son while Horus lays the smackdown. Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Totally this. It would be nonsensical to think SoT series wasn’t planned out in depth.

 

I would lay money on (and previously said this) Haley being originally down for book 5 but then the idea for DoF came up and Haley got “showrunner” duties.

 

French stepped in but there is no way he didn’t have an outline/treatment to work against. I would bet book 5 was ALWAYS going to be Titan led (and with Haley having written Titandeath that makes sense too).

 

I agree with the other point being made that Abnett likely wields more influence and the other authors may well yield to some of his ideas (simply by dint of his reputation/achievments etc). It won’t be anything more than an abundance of ideas and enthusiasm, nothing insidious or agenda pushing.

[StrangerOrders]

 

Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Are they really though? We can of course only speculate, but that is not the impression I get. ADB regularly mentions how much he venerates Abnett, and reading Saturnine, for example, what stood out to me was how much Abnett was allowed to put in a single book relative to the other siege novels. Deaths, character appearances, the works. Now themes/plotlines/characters of minor import taken almost almost exclusively from his writing, taking a macro view of a 50+ novel series, are being thrust centre-stage immediately prior to the main event.

 

Before somebody leaps on me, I'm not implying for a moment that Abnett is some kind of tyrannical figure who oppresses the HH writing team, but I've been in similar scenarios in academia where folks with status and reputation unintentionally dominate collaborative projects. Others from different walks of life will have experienced the same thing. I think that's what's happening here.

 

Maybe I'm just too negative. We'll see soon enough! Like Scribe, I hope you're right.

 

 

its farcical to feel obligated to like everything an author does just because you generally rate him highly.

Don't be absurd, nobody said anything of the sort. I myself was critical of Mortis, and I love French's work.

 

 

In fact, probably the only place in BL where you can really make a 1-1 critique of characterization with any fairness IS when comparing two books and casts largely generated by the same author.

We're talking about a Knight house here, with all that entails. Even a cursory glance of the Vyronii entry in Conquest by the uninitiated will show that they are far from mono-dimensional, with numerous sects (e.g. the branches that accrued glory as part of the Great Crusade, those who remain home, those accompanying RT fleets, etc), even before we take into account the changes wrought upon an institution after a decade of galaxy-spanning war. Not everybody/everything has to be an exemplar or a walking stereotype. There is plenty of room for a wealth of characterizations and personalities under the broader Vyronii umbrella. Their experience with monsters/"mental strain" is also far from unique so far as Knight houses are concerned; if folks resistant to monsters/alien terrors/telepathic nonsense were resistant to Chaos, then Horus would have been leading a football team sized rebellion.

 

I think, looking at the actual texts, it's clear that you've built them up in your head to be something they're not, but we're all entitled to our opinions. I just think saying a book does a "violent disservice" to a faction is...a tad hyperbolic.

 

Oh hyperbole is something I will gladly admit to, since I do not usually feel like I need to resort to exact wording to convey my point. But I will try so that I can at least communicate my displeasure in a way which you might find less abhorrent, even if you still undoubtably disagree. But I do think it is a disservice for some very simple reasons.

 

I happen to think their nature is a fairly distinct characteristic, otherwise it is fairly odd why psychic antagonists do not crop up more often in Knight House summaries (whereas those others opt to very much focus on how the unique challenges, or lack thereof, have shaped the House's character). And there is very distinct mention of the power of said entities such as the description for Elsbet Vorr's banner noting the glory associated with her successful hunt, sure it is not exacting citing the Imperial measurement chart but I am assuming 'god-like will' is not AK having a lapse. 

 

These are in all likelihood the only Vyronii we will ever see. And to go by past experience, BL first showing tends to overwrite previous characterizations and become the norm. 

 

I do believe I said word for word that were these just a Vyronii showing then I would be very happy to brush them off as exceptions. But instead we have a pretty strongly negative showing with very little mention of anything that makes them unique. Quite the opposite

 

Let us compare that to our Ignatum protagonist, who for all of his not really being a character per se is very much the exact exemplar you are noting. And that is typical, a first showing of a faction which will be 90%+ of people's first sight of a faction should be an exemplar of what that faction is. If only because it sets a precedent to build from both in the minds of the fanbase and of course with regards to what tools are available for some writer to hopefully either play straight or subvert.  

 

I would frankly like to compare this with the Knight House recently seen in Gate of Bones which absolutely bled with fairly distinct character and a unique atmosphere. If an extremely celtic one. 

 

So I am dissatisfied and hope that if you do not agree you can at least see that I am not being baseless with regards to my displeasure.

 

Incidentally, I went back and reread the section to confirm that I was not talking out of my arse and I did make a mistake. The God-things on Damataeus were not giant snakes (I wonder where I got that impression from? I am thinking maybe Vengeful Spirit but that would be much more involved to trudge through) but were indeed what sounds like more Cthulu-analogues. I am increasingly wondering if the Lovecraft estate is marvelously wealthy at this point or if the property is just available for general use (I am not well aware of international regulations regarding intellectual property nor to what degree the UK adheres to it I confess).

 

 

 

I don't know if that reading of it is necessarily what he meant.

 

What I got out of it is: They planned a rough outline for the Siege, gave an approximation of what would be in each book, and settled on 8. French thought Solar War would be his only entry, but for one reason or another, they had an empty slot for a writer to fill. As others have theorized, it could be that Haley was pulling double duty but had to bow out for Dawn of Fire. I didn't read it as them groping in the dark at all.

 

I mean this book is Oll's whole Siege setup and

Perturabo

leaves. I don't think you can just yoink these things out of a White Scars book or a Blood Angels book and still meet the intended length or plot balance (especially considering the quality of the writers upcoming.)

 

Regarding Oll and twists, all I'm expecting is

for him to pop out of a cut in reality and shank the Emperor. Mortis makes it clear they aren't on good terms. This'll probably replace The Emperor's hesitation due to the love of his son while Horus lays the smackdown. Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Totally this. It would be nonsensical to think SoT series wasn’t planned out in depth.

 

I would lay money on (and previously said this) Haley being originally down for book 5 but then the idea for DoF came up and Haley got “showrunner” duties.

 

French stepped in but there is no way he didn’t have an outline/treatment to work against. I would bet book 5 was ALWAYS going to be Titan led (and with Haley having written Titandeath that makes sense too).

 

I agree with the other point being made that Abnett likely wields more influence and the other authors may well yield to some of his ideas (simply by dint of his reputation/achievments etc). It won’t be anything more than an abundance of ideas and enthusiasm, nothing insidious or agenda pushing.

 

The trouble I am beginning to see with Abnett's influence is that he seems to be the only one that can really sell me on his nuttier ideas.

 

Ideas which are now bleeding into the mainstay in ways I at least am struggling to buy. Its odd that much of what I found unpleasant in this book reek of things French does not usually go with and almost certainly originated with my favorite current BL author who wrote the Siege book I rate highest so far.

 

I guess not everyone can wear the same shoes. Which is not a new issue with the setting's distinct nature.

Edited May 1, 2021 by StrangerOrders

[Roomsky]

 

Are they really though? We can of course only speculate, but that is not the impression I get. ADB regularly mentions how much he venerates Abnett, and reading Saturnine, for example, what stood out to me was how much Abnett was allowed to put in a single book relative to the other siege novels. Deaths, character appearances, the works. Now themes/plotlines/characters of minor import taken almost almost exclusively from his writing, taking a macro view of a 50+ novel series, are being thrust centre-stage immediately prior to the main event.

 

Before somebody leaps on me, I'm not implying for a moment that Abnett is some kind of tyrannical figure who oppresses the HH writing team, but I've been in similar scenarios in academia where folks with status and reputation unintentionally dominate collaborative projects. Others from different walks of life will have experienced the same thing. I think that's what's happening here.

 

Maybe I'm just too negative. We'll see soon enough! Like Scribe, I hope you're right.

 

 

ADB's Siege interview comment "There's been arguments, Dan once gave me a scowl that I will take to my grave fearing" generally gives me hope that there are level heads present pushing back against going completely off the rails. I think he's also mentioned a split in the team between twist advocates and opponents in other interviews.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

Are they really though? We can of course only speculate, but that is not the impression I get. ADB regularly mentions how much he venerates Abnett, and reading Saturnine, for example, what stood out to me was how much Abnett was allowed to put in a single book relative to the other siege novels. Deaths, character appearances, the works. Now themes/plotlines/characters of minor import taken almost almost exclusively from his writing, taking a macro view of a 50+ novel series, are being thrust centre-stage immediately prior to the main event.

 

Before somebody leaps on me, I'm not implying for a moment that Abnett is some kind of tyrannical figure who oppresses the HH writing team, but I've been in similar scenarios in academia where folks with status and reputation unintentionally dominate collaborative projects. Others from different walks of life will have experienced the same thing. I think that's what's happening here.

 

Maybe I'm just too negative. We'll see soon enough! Like Scribe, I hope you're right.

 

 

ADB's Siege interview comment "There's been arguments, Dan once gave me a scowl that I will take to my grave fearing" generally gives me hope that there are level heads present pushing back against going completely off the rails. I think he's also mentioned a split in the team between twist advocates and opponents in other interviews.

 

Fair enough. I certainly hope that's the case.

[Just123456]

I don't know if that reading of it is necessarily what he meant.

 

What I got out of it is: They planned a rough outline for the Siege, gave an approximation of what would be in each book, and settled on 8. French thought Solar War would be his only entry, but for one reason or another, they had an empty slot for a writer to fill. As others have theorized, it could be that Haley was pulling double duty but had to bow out for Dawn of Fire. I didn't read it as them groping in the dark at all.

 

I mean this book is Oll's whole Siege setup and

Perturabo

 leaves. I don't think you can just yoink these things out of a White Scars book or a Blood Angels book and still meet the intended length or plot balance (especially considering the quality of the writers upcoming.)

 

Regarding Oll and twists, all I'm expecting is

for him to pop out of a cut in reality and shank the Emperor. Mortis makes it clear they aren't on good terms. This'll probably replace The Emperor's hesitation due to the love of his son while Horus lays the smackdown. Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Oll Persson being one of Jason's Argonauts is not in anyway obscure fluff when it concerns the Perpetuals.

[Scribe]

 

I don't know if that reading of it is necessarily what he meant.

 

What I got out of it is: They planned a rough outline for the Siege, gave an approximation of what would be in each book, and settled on 8. French thought Solar War would be his only entry, but for one reason or another, they had an empty slot for a writer to fill. As others have theorized, it could be that Haley was pulling double duty but had to bow out for Dawn of Fire. I didn't read it as them groping in the dark at all.

 

I mean this book is Oll's whole Siege setup and

Perturabo

 leaves. I don't think you can just yoink these things out of a White Scars book or a Blood Angels book and still meet the intended length or plot balance (especially considering the quality of the writers upcoming.)

 

Regarding Oll and twists, all I'm expecting is

for him to pop out of a cut in reality and shank the Emperor. Mortis makes it clear they aren't on good terms. This'll probably replace The Emperor's hesitation due to the love of his son while Horus lays the smackdown. Abnett has a lot of power, but remember half the team (including ADB) are reigning him in a bit.

Oll Persson being one of Jason's Argonauts is not in anyway obscure fluff when it concerns the Perpetuals.

 

 

Sure, whats the point of it? What does it add to the context of the Heresy, and why is it going to be one of the central plot points (seemingly) of a Series that didnt need them?

[StrangerOrders]

Him being an Argonaut is not really too much of a stretch, since it's one of his founding characteristics. I personally found the questions it raised later and in Mortis more curious.

 

Will say though, if the Sirens from Perpetual existed and even a little bit of Greek Mythos or any mythos was real in -1M Terra... well Earth was probably the most oddly Warp-y premodern species in 40k and has become alot less rather than more psychically attuned by 40k. It really does introduce more questions than it answers and not in the best fashion. It also begs the question of whether the Warp was considerably less malicious back then because alot of the mythical figures were not really that malevolent.

 

Also, given what we know more about him. I find the fact he served in the Crusade willingly very odd.

 

It also makes you wonder why on earth the Emp keeps reusing titles that do not seem to bode well for him on repeat. 

 

Between Astartes (named for a woman that betrayed him due to lack of faith), Insisting on 20 Legios (when that number did not exactly work out well before) and Warmaster (a title which is linked with a guy who betrayed him due to dramatically different PoVs on Humanity's way forward).

 

You have to think Malcador was just taking a deep breath and sighing whenever the Emp gave yet another ill-omened name out like candy.

 

To be a bit less negative and touch again on something I really liked, the Ignatum were so wonderfully distinct in this book and for all my disagreements on a certain owl, the Selenites here through the lens of Andromeda were really spun back in a direction I was happy to see after so long in the hands of other writers.

 

Also, idk why but

'Bio-Daemon'

is such a badass title. Idk why it just sounds awesome.

 

While I did note I got tired of the Titans later on, and more the fight than the actual Ignatum. Their early chapters really were a treat and I confess that I will go back to them in the future. There is just such a weirdly high-octane way in the way they describe everything mixed with an over-the-top gravitas that oddly enough makes me think of Metal Gear Revengeance for some reason. There is just this insane power and rage that comes across combined with a robotic unison to the Lego that just makes them instantly striking to me.

 

Honestly I would have liked more chapters pre-fight just exploring who they are and how they do things, its such a treat.

 

Actually, damn it. I can't in good conscious leave it at a 3 when considering how much I liked the book in the beginning before that steep decline. Especially since I do not recall previously giving a score that harsh. Let's say 6. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

 

It also makes you wonder why on earth the Emp keeps reusing titles that do not seem to bode well for him on repeat. 

 

 

The repetitions we see through all this, (honestly felt like Valdor was some weird copy-paste) simply has to be intentional at this point, and I'm stuck wondering what the pay off is going to be.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

Are they really though? We can of course only speculate, but that is not the impression I get. ADB regularly mentions how much he venerates Abnett, and reading Saturnine, for example, what stood out to me was how much Abnett was allowed to put in a single book relative to the other siege novels. Deaths, character appearances, the works. Now themes/plotlines/characters of minor import taken almost almost exclusively from his writing, taking a macro view of a 50+ novel series, are being thrust centre-stage immediately prior to the main event.

 

Before somebody leaps on me, I'm not implying for a moment that Abnett is some kind of tyrannical figure who oppresses the HH writing team, but I've been in similar scenarios in academia where folks with status and reputation unintentionally dominate collaborative projects. Others from different walks of life will have experienced the same thing. I think that's what's happening here.

 

Maybe I'm just too negative. We'll see soon enough! Like Scribe, I hope you're right.

 

 

ADB's Siege interview comment "There's been arguments, Dan once gave me a scowl that I will take to my grave fearing" generally gives me hope that there are level heads present pushing back against going completely off the rails. I think he's also mentioned a split in the team between twist advocates and opponents in other interviews.

 

Fair enough. I certainly hope that's the case.

 

 

we've all seen adb's passionate advocacy for what he believes is good writing and good for the series online (to the point where he lands himself in hot water), i'd find it hard to believe he wouldn't be coming to each meeting with that same amount of passion.

 

and even though abnett might have some sort of imbued authority in the room, adb , wraight and thorpe all have a resume that also lends them authority and influence.

 

all we can do is speculate from snippets we've read online mixed with our bias' on how we perceive certain authors and gw's work process, but we can never actually know how it operates without being a fly on the wall. in my own industry, there are many things i mistakenly thought worked one way only to discover i was very very wrong once i got involved in those processes myself. i see people online speculate (actually they don't speculate, they outright claim) things happened like x or y on a project i worked on, and it takes all my willpower not to "correct" them in the comments section. i can kinda understand how they reach those conclusions with the limited info they have, but it's still frustrating.

 

maybe abnett told everyone "in my book i get to kill all the SoH. suck it up" or maybe everyone planed a timeline where the SoH were massacred at saturnine together and abnett was the one who called dibs on writing it? or they asked him to do it?  we won't know unless they tell us and the team are under no obligation to enlighten us as to their process (as much as i enjoy hearing about it).

[mc warhammer]

 

 

It also makes you wonder why on earth the Emp keeps reusing titles that do not seem to bode well for him on repeat. 

 

 

The repetitions we see through all this, (honestly felt like Valdor was some weird copy-paste) simply has to be intentional at this point, and I'm stuck wondering what the pay off is going to be.

 

 

it could be a commentary on the emperor's cyclical perception of time or something

 

or it could just be leaning way too heavily into the trope of (and i have no idea what it's actually called) revealing there was a "first" in the "dark past". you see it in a lot of fiction whether it's professor x having a failed team of x-men before his actual x-men or there was a proto captain america before steve rogers or primus creating a failed race of creatures before he created the transformers or the doctor actually having had a first life before the incarnation of the william hartnell doctor or lilith being the first woman before eve....seems to be a fascination amongst writers and audiences. 

[USNCenturion]

I’ve tried reading Solar War twice now. I’ve sputtered and given up both times. I like French as an author, and I’ve been into the lore and Black Library for 20 years. I can’t understand why I’m failing to get into this series, and I’m bummed because I want to go along for the ride, I just can’t. Some of the things I’m reading about Mortis aren’t serving to kick me back into trying.

[Just123456]

 

Doubtful. The DAOT notion is from a war criminal who was executed for stealing water, so she is unreliable and would purposefully mislead. And ADB discredited it on Reddit. And Oll Persson has things that prove the memories of The Perpetuals. And he was one of Jason's Argonauts.

The Cabal recruited Damon Prytanis at Iwo Jima. So the memories are real.

 

It was an idea bounced around outside of print, too. And I've seen ADB discredit anyone that tries to firmly define things one way or another. I've learned not to judge anything based on "but the author said this...." and I've been personally responsible for a fair amount of that. I don't think they appreciate when we weaponize anything they say to pull "actually"s on each other.

But I did completely forget Damon Prytanis even existed, frankly. Some of the perpetuals just blur together in my head. I don't know man, I could probably come up with something if I read back to whatever he's in (Old Earth?), but that seems like a waste of time when I'm confident I could do the mental gymnastics. I'm going to skip the step where I do the work and just assume I made it work. That's how invested I am in the perpetual plot stuff.

Again, when was it bounced around outside of print? Are you talking about ADB's deceased friend who digged it? ADB's friend did not think it was plausible. He just digged it.

 

There is too much evidence that the memories of the Perpetuals are real. The Cabal recruiting Damon Prytanis, Oll Persson meeting Theseus and talking to him as an old friend.

[Scribe]

I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'

[Marshal Loss]

 

 adb , wraight and thorpe all have a resume that also lends them authority and influence.

 

In a vacuum, sure. Relative to Abnett, no. Of course all of the Siege of Terra authors have pedigree in their own right, or they wouldn't have been invited to participate. But Dan Abnett? He's literally been Mr Black Library for decades, much of his work has underpinned codex writing since the late 90s (which is where people like Thorpe came through the ranks, and what many entrants are first exposed to), he has irregularly been declared the personal inspiration for many of these authors, and the fact that he started the HH series has led to him being given the last novel, one way or another. Just by virtue of being the one writing that final entry he is going to wield far more influence on these 8 novels than his peers by default. None of this is disputable. My view is that his personal characters & themes popping up a handful of times in 50+ novels and then being put on full display in the Siege of Terra, frankly, says it all. You can't say e.g. "Enuncia is a major part of the setting and should play a key role in the Siege" when prior to the SOT it literally only appeared in Abnett's writing. Note French's Mortis afterword. And for every comment where ADB voraciously defends his views, you can find one re: Abnett that gives a very different impression. It's a two-way street.

 

Worth mentioning also is that on the Siege of Terra writing team, it isn't Abnett with (x) views and everybody else with (y) views. He has his own proponents. This we do know for a fact.

 

 

all we can do is speculate from snippets we've read online mixed with our bias' on how we perceive certain authors and gw's work process

We can of course only speculate, but that is not the impression I get

Obviously. I made my awareness of that abundantly clear.

[mc warhammer]

i wasn't trying to call you out, marshall. just adding to the discussion, mate.

[Marshal Loss]

Simply ensuring that my opinion is crystal clear, mate. When you quote somebody who says that "we can only speculate", and reply with "we can only speculate", I'm sure they can be forgiven for assuming that a wire has gotten crossed somewhere along the line.

 

There is too much evidence that the memories of the Perpetuals are real.

 

The evidence may well lean one way or the other, but that doesn't presuppose certainty. This setting doesn't work that way. You're approaching what LetsYouDown said the wrong way.

[RedFurioso]

 

French had a significant hand in writing the original Vyronii lore in Conquest.

Can you provide a source please? I always thought that all Titan/Knight lore sections from Black Books were written by Hoare.

[mc warhammer]

sure, and for more of that sweet sweet clarification: i was adding to roomsky's comment and your reply to it rather than your prior one. seemed like we were all on a similar train ; it didn't occur to me it would come across as a challenge. i'll be more aware of the quote trail in future.

 

on the topic of speculation: i've now put my foot in mouth in enough writer's rooms that i'm careful not to assume anything. sometimes things that clearly seem a result of x can turn out to be because of y in reality. of course sometimes x is just x as well.

 

the creative process, especially a collaborative one, is always surprising.

Edited May 2, 2021 by mc warhammer