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#451
Marshal Loss

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French had a significant hand in writing the original Vyronii lore in Conquest.

Can you provide a source please? I always thought that all Titan/Knight lore sections from Black Books were written by Hoare.

 

HH: Weekender I attended, either the 2015 or the 2016 iteration. It is entirely possible that I'm getting some wires crossed and am completely wrong re: Vyronii specifically, but I can state with surety that Andy Hoare didn't write all of the Titan/Knight sections in the black books. Legio Mortis' section in Betrayal was written entirely by Alan Bligh/John French, etc. He may have written most, but not all.

 

I'll go through my notes sometime, but I generally only wrote down information pertaining to my immediate interests (mainly SOH/EC), so no guarantees.

 

i'll be more aware of the quote trail in future.

 

Great.


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bRxSYDV.png


#452
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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'


Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

#453
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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'


Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

 

 

Still doesnt answer the question. :)


Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#454
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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'

Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

Still doesnt answer the question. :)
Did we need the Sensei in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned? No. But people digged them back then. One of the main reasons Dan Abnett wrote the Perpetuals was to modernize the thing of the Sensei.

Edited by Just123456, 02 May 2021 - 10:59 PM.


#455
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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'


Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.
 
Still doesnt answer the question. smile.png

Did we need the Sensei in Realm of Chaos: The List and The Damned? No. But people dogged them back then. One of the main reasons Dan Abnett wrote the Perpetuals was to modernize the thing of the Sensei.

 

 

So your saying that they serve no purpose to the story, other than to eventually serve as a plot device for the 'twist' that some authors seem in favour of?


Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#456
Just123456

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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'

Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

Still doesnt answer the question. :)
Did we need the Sensei in Realm of Chaos: The List and The Damned? No. But people dogged them back then. One of the main reasons Dan Abnett wrote the Perpetuals was to modernize the thing of the Sensei.

So your saying that they serve no purpose to the story, other than to eventually serve as a plot device for the 'twist' that some authors seem in favour of?
Did the Sensei serve a real purpose?

And I hate the stupid auto and everything on my tablet. I wanted to type Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. No List word.

Edited by Just123456, 02 May 2021 - 11:00 PM.


#457
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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'

Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

Still doesnt answer the question. smile.png
Did we need the Sensei in Realm of Chaos: The List and The Damned? No. But people dogged them back then. One of the main reasons Dan Abnett wrote the Perpetuals was to modernize the thing of the Sensei.

So your saying that they serve no purpose to the story, other than to eventually serve as a plot device for the 'twist' that some authors seem in favour of?
Did the Sensei serve a real purpose?And

I hate the stupid auto on my tablet. I wanted to type Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. No List word.

 

 

They did, until the fluff was essentially relegated to 'forgotten or ignored'.

 

So the Perpetuals are a repurposing of a trope of 'beings that dont die', which GW had already moved on from, and we have novels that expand on them so again.

 

Why? What purpose is Ol filling? Why does it matter that he was with Jason, and the....mind boggling choices that have been made in Mortis?

 

What is the point of this plot line, when as of TODAY, with 3 books left, its essentially pointless?

 

EDIT: Let me put it this way.

 

We have 3 (at least) examples of women who have been part of the Heresy process, in some kind of loop.

 

Erda, Astartes, and whoever it was that leads the Selenar.

 

The authors (unless they are just subconsciously telling us the same story) seem to have something they are driving towards here.

 

What is it, that Perpetuals are driving towards?


Edited by Scribe, 02 May 2021 - 11:05 PM.

Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#458
Just123456

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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'

Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

Still doesnt answer the question. :)
Did we need the Sensei in Realm of Chaos: The List and The Damned? No. But people dogged them back then. One of the main reasons Dan Abnett wrote the Perpetuals was to modernize the thing of the Sensei.

So your saying that they serve no purpose to the story, other than to eventually serve as a plot device for the 'twist' that some authors seem in favour of?
Did the Sensei serve a real purpose?And
I hate the stupid auto on my tablet. I wanted to type Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. No List word.
 
They did, until the fluff was essentially relegated to 'forgotten or ignored'.
 
So the Perpetuals are a repurposing of a trope of 'beings that dont die', which GW had already moved on from, and we have novels that expand on them so again.
 
Why? What purpose is Ol filling? Why does it matter that he was with Jason, and the....mind boggling choices that have been made in Mortis?
 
What is the point of this plot line, when as of TODAY, with 3 books left, its essentially pointless?
 
EDIT: Let me put it this way.
 
We have 3 (at least) examples of women who have been part of the Heresy process, in some kind of loop.
 
Erda, Astartes, and whoever it was that leads the Selenar.
 
The authors (unless they are just subconsciously telling us the same story) seem to have something they are driving towards here.
 
What is it, that Perpetuals are driving towards?

What purpose did the Sensei serve? Other than for the Inquisition to hunt them.

Oll Persson is going to the Vengeful Spirit to give a suicidal blow to Horus. His Athame can cut space, time and all that, but Horus would kill him before he can use it right.

#459
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I dont think anyone is really invested in that argument Just123456. The more pressing question would be 'what is the point.'

Fair enough. We did not need a lot of things in the setting, but we got them and people dig them.

Still doesnt answer the question. :)
Did we need the Sensei in Realm of Chaos: The List and The Damned? No. But people dogged them back then. One of the main reasons Dan Abnett wrote the Perpetuals was to modernize the thing of the Sensei.

So your saying that they serve no purpose to the story, other than to eventually serve as a plot device for the 'twist' that some authors seem in favour of?
Did the Sensei serve a real purpose?And
I hate the stupid auto on my tablet. I wanted to type Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. No List word.
 
They did, until the fluff was essentially relegated to 'forgotten or ignored'.
 
So the Perpetuals are a repurposing of a trope of 'beings that dont die', which GW had already moved on from, and we have novels that expand on them so again.
 
Why? What purpose is Ol filling? Why does it matter that he was with Jason, and the....mind boggling choices that have been made in Mortis?
 
What is the point of this plot line, when as of TODAY, with 3 books left, its essentially pointless?
 
EDIT: Let me put it this way.
 
We have 3 (at least) examples of women who have been part of the Heresy process, in some kind of loop.
 
Erda, Astartes, and whoever it was that leads the Selenar.
 
The authors (unless they are just subconsciously telling us the same story) seem to have something they are driving towards here.
 
What is it, that Perpetuals are driving towards?

But since you really want an answer, I say the the purpose of the Perpetuals is too be people who want to stop Horus.

And the Perpetuals are living records of the past. Very few people other than the Perpetuals have even a bit about Old Earth's history. Shakespaere, and other Old Earth things are from the Primarchs and the Perpetuals such as Oll Persson.

The Imperium knows next to nothing about the history of Old Earth.

#460
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The Sensai, were there for the potential rebirth of the Emperor via the Star Child.

 

The Imperium SHOULDNT know anything about the history of Old Earth, and that is in fact part of the setting. This perfectually illustrates my point.

 

The Perpetuals dont fit. They are not needed, they shouldn't exist, and their entire plot arc is seemingly there to be the final 'twist' that is so popular in modern works.

 

You could drop them from the entire series, and nothing of value would be lost that is central to the story of the Horus Heresy.

 

At least, until the last book when Dan gets to pull off his great reveal, and I throw myself off my balcony in despair. 


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Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#461
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It would be to show that the few people who knew about the history of Old Earth died off and now its dead. Horus kills human history. The Perpetuals are really not that stupid as a concept, when looking at the things in Xeelee, Culture and Doctor Who and other things.


Edited by Just123456, 03 May 2021 - 12:10 AM.


#462
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It would be to show that the few people who knew about the history of Old Earth died off and now its dead. Horus kills human history. The Perpetuals are really not that stupid as a concept, when looking at the things in Xeelee, Culture and Doctor Who and other things.

 

Xeelee? Culture? Doctor Who? Not a single thing pertaining to The Horus Heresy.

 

Humanity already went through 2 periods of cataclysmic decline. The fact 'Old Earth' is even considered at all is a mistake and that isnt what the Heresy is about, Full Stop.

 

The Perpetuals are not a stupid concept. They are an unnecessary one that was shoehorned into a story that didnt need them to serve...well I guess we will see.


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Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#463
Just123456

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It would be to show that the few people who knew about the history of Old Earth died off and now its dead. Horus kills human history. The Perpetuals are really not that stupid as a concept, when looking at the things in Xeelee, Culture and Doctor Who and other things.

 
Xeelee? Culture? Doctor Who? Not a single thing pertaining to The Horus Heresy.
 
Humanity already went through 2 periods of cataclysmic decline. The fact 'Old Earth' is even considered at all is a mistake and that isnt what the Heresy is about, Full Stop.
 
The Perpetuals are not a stupid concept. They are an unnecessary one that was shoehorned into a story that didnt need them to serve...well I guess we will see.

I saw people say they are stupid as a concept.

#464
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I think they are stupid, because I think that its a pointless addition, among other things.


Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#465
b1soul

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"The Imperium SHOULDNT know anything about the history of Old Earth, and that is in fact part of the setting. This perfectually illustrates my point.

The Perpetuals dont fit."

Other than the Emperor, certain elements of the Imperium (around the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy) would know a certain amount of very ancient Terran history. Makes a lot of sense for Malcador and his people to have researched this sort of thing.

By M41, that knowledge would probably have withered to a smattering of a smattering within elements of the Inquisition.

That's sort of beside the point though. The knowledge (and many millenia of personal experience) of those extremely ancient Perpetuals do not represent what "the Imperium" knows. Two separate things. 99.999999% of the Imperium doesn't even know about the existence of Perpetuals, much less the historical knowledge of certain Perpetuals who have lived through tens of millenia.

Are Perpetuals unnecessary? Yeah, I guess so. Do they not "fit" the setting? I think that's very subjective.

Their existence just means the Emperor had a small number of "peers" in the past (albeit lacking the Emperor's utterly freakish psychic might). Quite a few of these have probably been perma-killed over the millenia, and Oll is probably going to be perma-killed in the final SoT book. Perhaps the existence of Perpetuals among humanity has something to do with an Old Ones project...who knows.

But do they really "not fit" the setting. I think they can be worked in just fine. Whether they're a good creative choice...this goes back to subjectivity and personal taste.
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#466
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"The Imperium SHOULDNT know anything about the history of Old Earth, and that is in fact part of the setting. This perfectually illustrates my point.

The Perpetuals dont fit."

Other than the Emperor, certain elements of the Imperium (around the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy) would know a certain amount of very ancient Terran history. Makes a lot of sense for Malcador and his people to have researched this sort of thing.

By M41, that knowledge would probably have withered to a smattering of a smattering within elements of the Inquisition.

That's sort of beside the point though. The knowledge (and many millenia of personal experience) of those extremely ancient Perpetuals do not represent what "the Imperium" knows. Two separate things. 99.999999% of the Imperium doesn't even know about the existence of Perpetuals, much less the historical knowledge of certain Perpetuals who have lived through tens of millenia.

Are Perpetuals unnecessary? Yeah, I guess so. Do they not "fit" the setting? I think that's very subjective.

Their existence just means the Emperor had a small number of "peers" in the past (albeit lacking the Emperor's utterly freakish psychic might). Quite a few of these have probably been perma-killed over the millenia, and Oll is probably going to be perma-killed in the final SoT book. Perhaps the existence of Perpetuals among humanity has something to do with an Old Ones project...who knows.

But do they really "not fit" the setting. I think they can be worked in just fine. Whether they're a good creative choice...this goes back to subjectivity and personal taste.

 

For me its real easy. While I agree with most of what you are saying here, they 'dont fit' for me, because being 'impactful' as an individual is counter to the most basic premise of the setting.

 

"You, and nothing you do, matters."

 

They are too small, and shouldnt make a difference, so to put any kind of weight on them narratively, simply wont work for me.


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Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#467
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i mean, peers of the emperor who are the last remaining memory of humankind's past and a hope for the future that fail and are wiped out by 40k could work if that's the way the BL play it.

just unsure if that's the deal.

muddying the issue beyond the perpetuals as a concept is the individual characters themselves. on one end we have damon who almost everyone doesn't care for and on the other there's malcador who seems fairly accepted by fandom. idk if erda or oll have really captured the imagination of readers so far either.


Edited by mc warhammer, 03 May 2021 - 05:38 AM.

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It always amused me that the GW Mail Order ‘Trolls’ as we (starting with me) had always styled ourselves insisted as being rebranded ‘Space Marines’. Why anyone would want to be associated with semi-lobotomized, hypnotically indoctrinated slave-soldiers in thrall to an uncaring (and possibly non-existent) god I couldn’t imagine. - Rick Priestley

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#468
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"The Imperium SHOULDNT know anything about the history of Old Earth, and that is in fact part of the setting. This perfectually illustrates my point.
The Perpetuals dont fit."
Other than the Emperor, certain elements of the Imperium (around the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy) would know a certain amount of very ancient Terran history. Makes a lot of sense for Malcador and his people to have researched this sort of thing.
By M41, that knowledge would probably have withered to a smattering of a smattering within elements of the Inquisition.
That's sort of beside the point though. The knowledge (and many millenia of personal experience) of those extremely ancient Perpetuals do not represent what "the Imperium" knows. Two separate things. 99.999999% of the Imperium doesn't even know about the existence of Perpetuals, much less the historical knowledge of certain Perpetuals who have lived through tens of millenia.
Are Perpetuals unnecessary? Yeah, I guess so. Do they not "fit" the setting? I think that's very subjective.
Their existence just means the Emperor had a small number of "peers" in the past (albeit lacking the Emperor's utterly freakish psychic might). Quite a few of these have probably been perma-killed over the millenia, and Oll is probably going to be perma-killed in the final SoT book. Perhaps the existence of Perpetuals among humanity has something to do with an Old Ones project...who knows.
But do they really "not fit" the setting. I think they can be worked in just fine. Whether they're a good creative choice...this goes back to subjectivity and personal taste.

Malcador had the Rosetta stone.

#469
Just123456

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"The Imperium SHOULDNT know anything about the history of Old Earth, and that is in fact part of the setting. This perfectually illustrates my point.
The Perpetuals dont fit."
Other than the Emperor, certain elements of the Imperium (around the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy) would know a certain amount of very ancient Terran history. Makes a lot of sense for Malcador and his people to have researched this sort of thing.
By M41, that knowledge would probably have withered to a smattering of a smattering within elements of the Inquisition.
That's sort of beside the point though. The knowledge (and many millenia of personal experience) of those extremely ancient Perpetuals do not represent what "the Imperium" knows. Two separate things. 99.999999% of the Imperium doesn't even know about the existence of Perpetuals, much less the historical knowledge of certain Perpetuals who have lived through tens of millenia.
Are Perpetuals unnecessary? Yeah, I guess so. Do they not "fit" the setting? I think that's very subjective.
Their existence just means the Emperor had a small number of "peers" in the past (albeit lacking the Emperor's utterly freakish psychic might). Quite a few of these have probably been perma-killed over the millenia, and Oll is probably going to be perma-killed in the final SoT book. Perhaps the existence of Perpetuals among humanity has something to do with an Old Ones project...who knows.
But do they really "not fit" the setting. I think they can be worked in just fine. Whether they're a good creative choice...this goes back to subjectivity and personal taste.


You have good points.

Edited by Just123456, 03 May 2021 - 02:06 AM.


#470
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The subjectivity is strong in this thread!

Personally, I am not that keen on the perpetuals concept so far or the fact that they “multiplied” but b1soul makes some really good points.

At the end of the day:

1. It appears the perpetuals (possibly as an update to the Sensei) was Abnett’s idea.
2. The High Lords of GW/BL clearly agreed and authorised that concept (so it is cannon).
3. Abnett is definitely tying things together with his 40k Inquisitor books creating a meta narrative - but again we know whatever the end game is (spoilers in the penitent and the Magos speculation threads
-
Spoiler
)
Abnett needed to get permission and the simple fact he GOT permission means that GW/BL liked the idea and whatever it is will be cannon.

Subjectively some folks may not like it but it is nonetheless happening.

As I say, despite being a big Abnett fan, I am not a fan of the perpetuals SO FAR. However, I need to see what the climax is. I am more worried it will end up being a bit MEH!

One of the glaring problems (for me) about the perpetuals is that their “historical memories/flashbacks” seem to exclusively inhabit the period that is our real world historical period (ie x thousand BCE to the 20th Century AD). We are missing anything covering approx 28 thousand years of history prior to The Unification Wars!

How about some flashbacks to (for example):

- 1st man mission to Mars/Jupiter etc
- 1st sub light colony ship to another star system
- 1st encounter with xenos
- Discovery of the Warp
- Men of Stone/Iron
- Coming of Old Night
- etc etc

Instead we get the Argonauts (who are a literary invention anyway) and WWI, WWII etc

Not restricted to perpetuals of course. As far back as McNeil’s Mechanicum (I think) we had the implication The Emp was St George (and the dragon). Have there been no heroes (still mythical/legends to those living in M31) during that 28k period??????

Edited by DukeLeto69, 03 May 2021 - 09:40 AM.

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#471
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The subjectivity is strong in this thread!

Personally, I am not that keen on the perpetuals concept so far or the fact that they “multiplied” but b1soul makes some really good points.

At the end of the day:

1. It appears the perpetuals (possibly as an update to the Sensei) was Abnett’s idea.
2. The High Lords of GW/BL clearly agreed and authorised that concept (so it is cannon).
3. Abnett is definitely tying things together with his 40k Inquisitor books creating a meta narrative - but again we know whatever the end game is (spoilers in the penitent and the Magos speculation threads
-

Spoiler
)
Abnett needed to get permission and the simple fact he GOT permission means that GW/BL liked the idea and whatever it is will be cannon.

Subjectively some folks may not like it but it is nonetheless happening.

As I say, despite being a big Abnett fan, I am not a fan of the perpetuals SO FAR. However, I need to see what the climax is. I am more worried it will end up being a bit MEH!

One of the glaring problems (for me) about the perpetuals is that their “historical memories/flashbacks” seem to exclusively inhabit the period that is our real world historical period (ie x thousand BCE to the 20th Century AD). We are missing anything covering approx 28 thousand years of history prior to The Unification Wars!

How about some flashbacks to (for example):

- 1st man mission to Mars/Jupiter etc
- 1st sub light colony ship to another star system
- 1st encounter with xenos
- Discovery of the Warp
- Men of Stone/Iron
- Coming of Old Night
- etc etc

Instead we get the Argonauts (who are a literary invention anyway) and WWI, WWII etc

Not restricted to perpetuals of course. As far back as McNeil’s Mechanicum (I think) we had the implication The Emp was St George (and the dragon). Have there been no heroes (still mythical/legends to those living in M31) during that 28k period??????

 

Not to well-ackshully your post, because it is a great post, but in The Unremembered Empire, Matt Damon makes reference to events he participated in during M19, M22 and of course M30. This always stood out to me because, as you rightly say, BL authors can't stop referencing the Greeks or Shakesp1re (whoever that is), despite tens of thousands of (more) interesting pseudo-history taking place between our current time and the time of the Emperor. It was a great move by Abnett and added a much-needed veracity to things, once again showing why he's an excellent sci-fi author

 

Again, not to push this thread down another Perpetuals - Yay or Nay? route, because Roomsky has already plot-twist'd things sufficiently in regards to Mortis, but in my opinion the main reason people dislike Perpetuals, and are almost afraid to state it for fear of backlash, so instead seek to build logical and impartial arguments against them, when it simply boils down to this, is... because 'we' were already happy with what 'we' had before. The Vengebowl might've undergone several revisions over the years, but what we had circa. Collected Visions or that giant Billy King piece of writing (I have no idea where that's from - White Dwarf? The Horus Heresy boardgame?), sealed into everlasting glory by Adrian Smith's most iconic painting, is already perfect. That painting is the Genesis of 40k, where the Emperor defeated the Great Devil and retired to His Golden Throne to overlook and guide his mortal flock forever more. Replace Horus with a giant snake and edit out the Chaos Marines, and that image exists on a billion, billion cathedrals all across the galaxy. I honestly feel like because Laurie Goulding used to frequent this and other forums, and throw his weight around (when someone with his actual, tangible, real-world responsibilities should've known better), people have been bludgeoned into accepting Oll going all BERSERK and cutting his way behind the Emperor/Horus with his interdimensional sword at the climax of events is some kind of mandatory pill to swallow and enjoy. No, it's not. Just as people are free to look forward to it, so are others to dread it. Frankly, this Oll twist is the same type of pouring custard over your roast dinner as Reddit's trademark 'Chaos-Sanguinius mortally wounds the Emperor thing' despite this one's likely ascendance to untouchable canonicity sometime in 2022

 

Personally, I thought Olly Piers defending the banner of the Emperor's image at the Eternity Gate Spaceport was so good, with a solid enough setup in regards to themes like the mechanics of mythmaking (although Angron's mere presence on Terra should be causing every single mortal for miles around to weep blood, turn their own tongues into chewing gum and begin convulsing on the ground because a Prince of Khorne isn't a giant red Tonka Toy but a fulcrum of unimaginably concentrated warp-power - see The Emperor's Gift, but hey, it's a cool scene)... that I feel like the Pious myth was perfectly explained and justified, and after finishing Saturnine I was immediately struck by ''well, what's the point of the other Oll now? Oh, that...''

 

This is why I love the Black Legion series. There's no meta-narrative. Guilliman isn't going to walk into Khayon's cell in book #9 and reminisce about the compliance of Wiki Pedia during the Great Crusade. It's Warhammer 40,000: The Greatest Hits. Every book has been a knockout thus far and every book will continue to be a knockout because the series just rocks. While I believe the Reynolds Bile trilogy surpassed it from a technical standpoint, this is still the 'best' and 'truest' BL series going on right now from where I stand - and has been since it dropped in 2014. Boom


Edited by Bobss, 03 May 2021 - 04:47 PM.

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#472
DarkChaplain

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I concur on Olly Piers. His involvement and the myth's origin felt like one of the best things about Saturnine - but it's such an asspull to have a second, conveniently also Pious Ollanius running about Terra when we've been waiting for "the" Oll with his cross-necklace to bloody arrive there for the past 5+ years to do this thing himself.

 

It felt like Dan grew tired of Oll himself, instead opting to do something way cooler with a way more sympathetic and believable character.... but that leaves his earlier Perpetual dude in the dust, in what appears to be a subversion of a subversion.

 

Like, do we even need Oll in this narrative anymore, assuming we ever did? All he's providing now is a bad blood history with the Emperor, and for Grammaticus to seek out Erda under the guise of meeting with Oll at her place, to deliver more exposition on how the Emperor is super ambiguous and megalomaniacal but probably still a good person deep down even though he also might be a genocidal fool etc..... just that this is all stuff we could infer from previous books, including Master of Mankind, without on the nose peers that went to mythical big place in human history with him.

 

I can see why the Siege in particular would need to examine the Emperor as a character, which is difficult because he's locked on the Throne, trying to fend off Chaos/Horus, so it's not like he'd be able to walk around having chats with Katsuhiro and co. But at the same time, I don't feel like we needed the Perpetuals to provide different perspectives on the guy at this junction.

 

Instead of keeping with the excellent scenes from The Solar War that dripped with metaphysical, metaphorical symbolism to represent both the Emperor, Malcador and Horus, the Emperor became kind of a non-entity for 3 books, almost more so than Horus - the absent architect of this civil war - we got a handful of half-baked immortals popping up to basically tell the reader what they think about the Emperor, without even giving us a real reason to trust their words and viewpoints, because they haven't existed in the setting until two days ago.

 

Instead of building up interesting relationships with established characters, or at least establishing these characters properly instead of letting them hop through time and space for 5+ years without acknowledging their existence until the finale's twist, we get lorebombs in the shape of characters.

 

Heck, we could have had the Emperor still at least somewhat communicating with Sanguinius, Dorn and co through psychic means, to at least be a little present in the Siege narrative, rather than having everybody in defense of a God-Emperor whose existence is already pretty debatable in the plot. Sanguinius in particular suddenly getting sudden mindspy-visions in Abnett's book - something he never had or did before - could have at least allowed him to look into the Emperor's PoV to see just how damned they actually are and what he's gonna sacrifice himself for. After all, if he's psychically to his brothers, then surely, he would be to the dude who created them all as their father, considering they all share special traits with him.

 

There are just so many points about the focus on Perpetuals and their loredumps and revelations about the Emperor that I believe didn't ever need the Perpetuals as vehicles to deliver them. Heck, we were just fine with the Emperor showing visions to Ra, and we were free to debate whether he was telling the truth, lying, or something in between. The Emperor was ambiguous without somebody telling us "he's bad, but also good, you decide now".


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#473
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I concur on Olly Piers. His involvement and the myth's origin felt like one of the best things about Saturnine.


I believe at the time of reading it, that his arc was by far the best part of the book.
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A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
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#474
Just123456

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The subjectivity is strong in this thread!
Personally, I am not that keen on the perpetuals concept so far or the fact that they “multiplied” but b1soul makes some really good points.
At the end of the day:
1. It appears the perpetuals (possibly as an update to the Sensei) was Abnett’s idea.
2. The High Lords of GW/BL clearly agreed and authorised that concept (so it is cannon).
3. Abnett is definitely tying things together with his 40k Inquisitor books creating a meta narrative - but again we know whatever the end game is (spoilers in the penitent and the Magos speculation threads
-

Spoiler
)
Abnett needed to get permission and the simple fact he GOT permission means that GW/BL liked the idea and whatever it is will be cannon.
Subjectively some folks may not like it but it is nonetheless happening.
As I say, despite being a big Abnett fan, I am not a fan of the perpetuals SO FAR. However, I need to see what the climax is. I am more worried it will end up being a bit MEH!
One of the glaring problems (for me) about the perpetuals is that their “historical memories/flashbacks” seem to exclusively inhabit the period that is our real world historical period (ie x thousand BCE to the 20th Century AD). We are missing anything covering approx 28 thousand years of history prior to The Unification Wars!
How about some flashbacks to (for example):
- 1st man mission to Mars/Jupiter etc
- 1st sub light colony ship to another star system
- 1st encounter with xenos
- Discovery of the Warp
- Men of Stone/Iron
- Coming of Old Night
- etc etc
Instead we get the Argonauts (who are a literary invention anyway) and WWI, WWII etc
Not restricted to perpetuals of course. As far back as McNeil’s Mechanicum (I think) we had the implication The Emp was St George (and the dragon). Have there been no heroes (still mythical/legends to those living in M31) during that 28k period??????

Oll Persson has memories on the Men of Iron. There were Sun snuffers the size of Saturn's rings. And along with being one of Jason's Argonauts, he has memories of the Scythians and other things.

Edited by Just123456, 03 May 2021 - 05:27 PM.


#475
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Sure. And despite that, Olly has the more important, resonant narrative within the Heresy, and it didn't take anything fancy, immortal, or eternal.

So it's not to say that Dan cannot write, he clearly can.
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Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.
 
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻





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