Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Mortis


  • Please log in to reply
692 replies to this topic

#626
Scribe

Scribe

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 7,210 posts
  • Faction: Khorne
Good catch. That didn't really resonate with me, as my view on the setting aligns with that as is.
Q:  Is there room for hope in the grim dark future of Warhammer 40,000?
A:  I do hope not because then it won't be the 40k universe anymore.
- Dan Abnett -

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#627
Bobss

Bobss

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 239 posts

Good catch. That didn't really resonate with me, as my view on the setting aligns with that as is.

 

I would've been perfectly happy with a 1:1 novel-format adaptation of Collected Visions to be broootally honest, but for a book (and a Siege) that hasn't always nailed the mood as well as I would've liked, it was a very nice moment



#628
Angel_of_Blood

Angel_of_Blood

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 298 posts
There was a lot I liked, and some things I want so keen on, but solid book for all that. One of the things I did like though, was that it finally gave us a glimpse into what the Emperors Children were up to instead of fighting.

From some of the oldest Siege lore, we knew that the 3rd quite the Siege and started doing…….things…to the civilian population instead. So when Oll and Co started approaching the city and something was clearly off and it had already been named ‘Paradise’, I got hoping it would be something to do with them. And yeah, the results were pretty awful! Pretty much turned a botanical greenhouse city into one where the plants are either fed by people or made from people. Think I have to read those sections again to really take in all that was both stated, implied or alluded to. As it sounded pretty grim and nightmare fuel, as it should be!
  • Lord Lorne Walkier and Roomsky like this

#629
DarkChaplain

DarkChaplain

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,861 posts
  • Location:Germany

I believe I might have stumbled over a little easter egg in Nick Kyme's Warhammer Horror short Pentimento.

 

Spoiler

  • DukeLeto69 likes this

#630
DukeLeto69

DukeLeto69

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,416 posts
Which Horror anthology is that in?

#631
theSpirea

theSpirea

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 336 posts

Which Horror anthology is that in?


It's collected in The Harrowed Paths.
  • DukeLeto69 likes this

Upcoming BL writers to keep an eye on (mostly based on their entries in Inferno! and other anthologies).

Robert Rath, Michael R. Fletcher, Peter McLean, Nate Crowley, Lora Gray, Jake Ozga, Denny Flowers.


#632
DarkChaplain

DarkChaplain

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,861 posts
  • Location:Germany

Finally found some time to start on Mortis, and I've already had to groan about Oll's introduction to the Siege. He literally flashbacks to various figures and moments of greek mythology, including Medea and Orpheus (specifically named), next to other allusions. Really starting off on the wrong foot, French, especially since it's all back to small world syndrome.

 

Like, couldn't he at least have remembered something not so obviously taken from Greek mythology that you'd find it retold in a Stephen Fry book? How about just having him think back to Jimbo the Space Dandy from M5 or some random restaurant at the end of the galaxy? Something creative instead of 5 references to the same mythological pool once again?

 

The other thing that annoys me is with the audiobook (which was delayed anyway).

The to me so far most interesting character of Boetharch Mauer is getting slapped with Jonathan Keeble's gear-grinding pseudo-German accent. It's bad, it's always been bad, and it's taking me out of the experience when her plotline shows the most promise so far, yet every time she opens her mouth, I am treated to... that.

 

On the subject of weird choices for character voices: Graft the Servitor sounds like a young boy in Oll's first scene, which is... not really what I'd expect a Servitor to sound like, least of all after having that long a lifespan, being decommissioned from his original purpose and travelling what sounds like a good amount of years (subjective time) through time/space portals without maintenance. I'd totally buy it if he was a cherub, but it's a work Servitor... who also had a rather different, more mechanical voice in previous books, which were most likely also voiced by Keeble. It's one of the things I've noticed the most out of his Siege narrations so far: He's not consistent in his depictions, especially of Primarchs. As the (sadly, imo) main narrator of the Heresy for the past 30 books or so, that's odd.


  • Marshal Loss, The_Bloody, LetsYouDown and 1 other like this

#633
Angel_of_Blood

Angel_of_Blood

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 298 posts
I just don’t know how anyone can stand Audios. All the ones I listened to out of necessity, like before they were released on paper in anthologies, had me rolling my eyes and trying to suppress long sighs. Keebles Garro sounded constipated, Varren was a truly awful Cockney geezer, and the White Scar was some really awful stereotype Asian accent that I’d expect to hear in Team America or Family Guy.

A narrated book I can deal with. Stephen Fry reading Harry Potter, good stuff! But audio dramas with accents and sound effects? Nooooooope.
  • Felix Antipodes, Roomsky, MegaVolt87 and 1 other like this

#634
MillionsSons

MillionsSons

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 154 posts
Hello - reading Mortis now but I had to stop at two third of the book when we know what Corswain’s plan was.

I need some help to make sense of the below:
- when/how did the Astronomicon fell to the renegades? There is an entire book for each of the spatioport falling to Horus but we only know about the Astronomican thanks to Corswain lol

- as a critical piece of the Imperium, how come the astronomicon is not, well, inside the palace?

Most importantly....
- Only condition of Victory for the loyalists is that Guilliman reaches Terra in time... but they are unaware that the Astronomican is taken by the enemy???

It doesn’t make any sense to me 😅😅😅

Edited by MillionsSons, 20 July 2021 - 04:36 PM.


#635
Lucien Eilam

Lucien Eilam

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,907 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • Faction: Lightbringers

as a critical piece of the Imperium, how come the astronomicon is not, well, inside the palace?

 

 

The Astronomican was only ever a temporary solution until the Imperial Webway became viable. It’s built into a mountain, on what should have been the safest planet in the Imperium. Even with all the Traitors’ advantages, it still took like 7 years or whatever to get anywhere near Terra. The Palace wasn’t built as a fortress, so it wouldn’t have been any more secure there.

 

So, it wasn’t at risk when it was constructed, and by the time it was, they couldn’t move it, and didn’t have the resources to hold both it and the Palace at once.

 

Lose the Palace and they lose Terra and the war. Lose the Astronomican and there’s at least a slim hope it lasted long enough for the Ultramarines to get close enough to figure something out. Warp navigation is extremely high risk and unreliable without a beacon, but it’s not impossible. 

 

 

when/how did the Astronomicon fell to the renegades?

 

 

It falls after Corswain arrives in the system and makes contact with the remnants of the Solar fleet. That’s mentioned in chapter 5. You’ll know who it fell to by the end – Corswain doesn’t know until he gets there.

 

As for the how, we don’t see it happen, but capturing the Astronomican probably wasn’t much of a battle – the Loyalists are fighting a losing battle even with all their forces at the Palace, the rest of the planet is pretty much abandoned to its fate.

 

 

they are unaware that the Astronomican is taken by the enemy?

 

 

I’m sure they’d be aware, but they’re on the ropes, with lone Blood Angels trying to hold wall sections with the ragtag remnants of conscript units. They couldn’t spare the 10,000 Legionaries Corswain used to recapture it, and don’t have the mobility to get them halfway round the planet if they did.

 

So, we could have had a scene where Dorn and Malcador go “Astronomican has gone out, we’re screwed without it, what can we do about it? nothing”, but it wouldn’t have added much to the scene where Corswain concludes “Astronomican has gone out, we’re screwed without it, what can we do about it? rally the fleet and take it back”.

 

Might have been nice to have it acknowledged and see how Dorn, etc. react, but basically exactly the same conversation, only without any possibility of action.


Edited by Lucien Eilam, 20 July 2021 - 07:49 PM.

  • EnsignJoker likes this

“In general, we have found that the more scenery you can place on the battlefield, the better the game will be.”

Lightbringers Space Marines


#636
DarkChaplain

DarkChaplain

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,861 posts
  • Location:Germany

Frankly, it SHOULD have been discussed by Malcador, Dorn and Sanguinius at the very least. They're all desperately banking on Guilliman reaching Terra, and this would have completely disrupted those hopes of Roboute ever making it in time with his fleet - which had to be both large enough and mostly intact and not arrive piecemeal to be taken out of action by the traitor fleets.

 

This whole "we're doomed" realization is vital to the story. They've been clinging to this ONE hope for 4 books of the Siege already. Four books, with some exceedingly lengthy ones. And nobody could be bothered to actually integrate the fall of the beacon into the narrative before its recapture. It doesn't even make sense that Dorn would make gambles in Saturnine when arguably the most important tool to their victory is either at risk or already lost. Why the hell would he shorten the timespan they can hold out by months, by way of sacrificing another star port? The Hollow Mountain should have been one of the most well-defended bastions in the first place, and it makes zero sense that Dorn wouldn't have spent his 7+ years fortifying the damned thing - or alternatively, experiment with ways to move the Astronomican into the Palace proper by whichever means. This isn't something Dorn would have no contingency plans on.


  • Noserenda, Marshal Loss, fire golem and 3 others like this

#637
MillionsSons

MillionsSons

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 154 posts

Frankly, it SHOULD have been discussed by Malcador, Dorn and Sanguinius at the very least. They're all desperately banking on Guilliman reaching Terra, and this would have completely disrupted those hopes of Roboute ever making it in time with his fleet - which had to be both large enough and mostly intact and not arrive piecemeal to be taken out of action by the traitor fleets.

This whole "we're doomed" realization is vital to the story. They've been clinging to this ONE hope for 4 books of the Siege already. ....This isn't something Dorn would have no contingency plans on.



Yup, completely agree. Thanks for confirming I didn’t miss anything ( although I was hoping I had!)
Good point for Saturnine.

#638
MillionsSons

MillionsSons

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 154 posts

as a critical piece of the Imperium, how come the astronomicon is not, well, inside the palace?



The Astronomican was only ever a temporary solution until the Imperial Webway became viable. It’s built into a mountain, on what should have been the safest planet in the Imperium. Even with all the Traitors’ advantages, it still took like 7 years or whatever to get anywhere near Terra. The Palace wasn’t built as a fortress, so it wouldn’t have been any more secure there.

So, it wasn’t at risk when it was constructed, and by the time it was, they couldn’t move it, and didn’t have the resources to hold both it and the Palace at once.

Lose the Palace and they lose Terra and the war. Lose the Astronomican and there’s at least a slim hope it lasted long enough for the Ultramarines to get close enough to figure something out. Warp navigation is extremely high risk and unreliable without a beacon, but it’s not impossible.

when/how did the Astronomicon fell to the renegades?



It falls after Corswain arrives in the system and makes contact with the remnants of the Solar fleet. That’s mentioned in chapter 5. You’ll know who it fell to by the end – Corswain doesn’t know until he gets there.

As for the how, we don’t see it happen, but capturing the Astronomican probably wasn’t much of a battle – the Loyalists are fighting a losing battle even with all their forces at the Palace, the rest of the planet is pretty much abandoned to its fate.

they are unaware that the Astronomican is taken by the enemy?



I’m sure they’d be aware, but they’re on the ropes, with lone Blood Angels trying to hold wall sections with the ragtag remnants of conscript units. They couldn’t spare the 10,000 Legionaries Corswain used to recapture it, and don’t have the mobility to get them halfway round the planet if they did.

So, we could have had a scene where Dorn and Malcador go “Astronomican has gone out, we’re screwed without it, what can we do about it? nothing”, but it wouldn’t have added much to the scene where Corswain concludes “Astronomican has gone out, we’re screwed without it, what can we do about it? rally the fleet and take it back”.

Might have been nice to have it acknowledged and see how Dorn, etc. react, but basically exactly the same conversation, only without any possibility of action.

Thanks for the huge effort to try to make sense of it 🙂 For the sake of consistency they should have add this conversation yes. Also, since everything outside the palace is lost since even before the siege starts, that means technically the astronomicon should have been lost at the end of the first book, not just after Corswain arrives.
Another weird thing 🧐

It’s also weird that its not inside the infinity wall. This is the size of a continent so we would expect the whole himalaya is included in it.

#639
SkimaskMohawk

SkimaskMohawk

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,708 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
  • Faction: Raven Guard and VIII Legion
Kind of makes First Wall even worse in retrospect.

"I can't possibly destroy the port that's a massive defensive weakness; we might need it for guilliman to save us even though that'll mean he has orbital supremacy and has already won. But I can't fortify the astronomicon; it's the only thing that can actually get him to terra to save us!"

Man I hate the first wall. Butchered some characters in the service of a premise that makes no sense.
  • Marshal Loss and fire golem like this

#640
MillionsSons

MillionsSons

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 154 posts

Kind of makes First Wall even worse in retrospect.

"I can't possibly destroy the port that's a massive defensive weakness; we might need it for guilliman to save us even though that'll mean he has orbital supremacy and has already won. But I can't fortify the astronomicon; it's the only thing that can actually get him to terra to save us!"

Man I hate the first wall. Butchered some characters in the service of a premise that makes no sense.


Oh at least the Astronomicon was mentionned there!

My issue with First wall was how the renegades breached in. This was not detailed. Only thing we know is that 100,000+ beast men charged forward, and somehow a hole was made in the spatioport... then Forrix and his company sneaked in.

#641
fire golem

fire golem

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,223 posts
  • Location:Gosport, UK
  • Faction: XVth Legion, Loyal Siege force
I had a lot of the same questions reading Mortis, fwiw. I didn’t think Corswain/the Astronomicon section was particularly well handled.
  • Marshal Loss, DarkChaplain and MillionsSons like this

#642
Fedor

Fedor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 338 posts

The whole plotline gave the impression of something clumsily shoehorned in to give the Dark Angels some presence on Terra. It was at least hinted at in Dreadwing, but nobody even hinted at it in previous books, nor did French make any effort to properly establish it as a vital front in Mortis.

 

Kind of makes First Wall even worse in retrospect.

"I can't possibly destroy the port that's a massive defensive weakness; we might need it for guilliman to save us even though that'll mean he has orbital supremacy and has already won. But I can't fortify the astronomicon; it's the only thing that can actually get him to terra to save us!"

Man I hate the first wall. Butchered some characters in the service of a premise that makes no sense.

Sometimes i think no matter what is being discussed, a portion of the fanbase will find some way to make it about blaming or laying into Gav Thorpe.


  • DarkChaplain likes this

#643
DukeLeto69

DukeLeto69

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,416 posts
I too was like “wait? What?” When the Astronomicon section in Mortis started.

This isn’t only on French or arguably previously published books. It IS on ALL those involved in planning out the SoT series because we are told how much planning has gone into this. It would appear they all forgot about the Astronomicon being taken by Horus’ forces until Mortis. Hmmm dropped the plot ball there gang!
  • Lucerne, DarkChaplain and MillionsSons like this

#644
DarkChaplain

DarkChaplain

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,861 posts
  • Location:Germany

inb4 we're getting a McNeill novella to explain this inconsistency because apparently he's the only author they got available who can write non-novels to add to the Siege arc.

 

Like, seriously, this is the kind of stuff you could easily have tackled with an anthology, along with countless other fronts that we only hear about in passing. Where's the rest of the Siege?


  • Lucerne, Scribe and DukeLeto69 like this

#645
DukeLeto69

DukeLeto69

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,416 posts
The lack of SoT anthology always has struck me as odd!
  • DarkChaplain likes this

#646
A Melancholic Sanguinity

A Melancholic Sanguinity

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 775 posts

Because the Siege of Terra was supposed to be the focused cumulation of a 54+ book series that was the result of some unbelievable scale creep that ended up bloating the content with nonsensical side characters and plots and aborted threads and regurgitated anthologies and-

 

"Hey guys give us Siege of Terra anthologies!"

 

:cussing shoot me.


  • Noserenda, Marshal Loss, Scribe and 3 others like this

#647
DarkChaplain

DarkChaplain

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,861 posts
  • Location:Germany

So instead we get a ton of characters from those books some may well consider bloat, all shoehorned into the Siege without any rhyme or reason, killed off as sidenotes without any narrative or emotional resonance. Amazing.

 

The Siege was supposed to be an arc offering major payoff to what's come before, the glorious finale. So far, it hasn't been that at all, and it's not because of somebody like Thorpe, who some people seem to like to lay into, but because it's ticking off boxes while not having the necessary time to do so properly, or the narrative leeway in a focused novel - which the Astronomican situation is a prime example for.

 

The Siege of Terra has progressively felt smaller in scale... and not because of everything coming up millhouse at the Palace, but because it's discarded so much of the lifeblood of the 54 preceding books: Their characters and intimacy. It's managed to feel incredibly narrow in view, despite being a global event already lasting over half a year in-universe, despite there being ample opportunity to showcase other theaters of war without trouble by way of even just one anthology.

Instead of having some buildup to characters getting killed off, important strategic locations falling, or Legions falling apart, we just get the results thrown at us and then never commented on again.

 

At five books out of eight, the Siege of Terra has overall failed to make me give a damn about what is actually happening. If I wanted to read the cliffnotes version of character x's appearance to save the day, rather than the turmoil they go through on a more personal level, or "and then, between chapters, the Astronomican fell", I could've stuck with Collected Visions / Visions of Heresy.


  • DukeLeto69 likes this

#648
A Melancholic Sanguinity

A Melancholic Sanguinity

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 775 posts

That's a fundamental issue of vision, coherence, leadership, and oversight.

 

It's not something that can be fixed by way of "just throw more words on paper and publish it" - that's the kind of thing that got us a bloated series dozens of books long across god knows how many release formats, a nigh-impenetrable ordering/chronological method (or lack thereof), and an utterly incoherent overall narrative.

 

So far, Siege of Terra shows the lesson learned is "fans will buy it anyway".

 

 

At this point, it's not a matter of the car crossing the finish line cleanly and in style.

 

All the axles are pointing in different directions, the chassis is held together by chewing gum, the engine has caught on fire multiple times, and the whole thing ran out of gas about three miles ago and is running on fumes and mountain dew.

 

Please, don't move the finish line back so we can get more of this :cussshow. Extending the track is not going to magically make things better.

 

I just want it to end.


  • Brother Lunkhead and Roomsky like this

#649
EnsignJoker

EnsignJoker

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 589 posts

Because the Siege of Terra was supposed to be the focused cumulation of a 54+ book series that was the result of some unbelievable scale creep that ended up bloating the content with nonsensical side characters and plots and aborted threads and regurgitated anthologies and-

"Hey guys give us Siege of Terra anthologies!"

:cussing shoot me.


I love you

#650
DukeLeto69

DukeLeto69

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,416 posts

Because the Siege of Terra was supposed to be the focused cumulation of a 54+ book series that was the result of some unbelievable scale creep that ended up bloating the content with nonsensical side characters and plots and aborted threads and regurgitated anthologies and-

"Hey guys give us Siege of Terra anthologies!"

:cussing shoot me.

Nah I deliberately used the singular “anthology”

While you might not like the way the HH shaped up, the reality is there ARE 54 books etc. The story HAS been told that way. So that is that. Here we are!

SoT is the climax to what we DO have rather than what it perhaps should have been (and there are multiple permutations about what that is).

IMO a single anthology tying up loose ends, side events etc would be useful. The Astronomicon being a prime example. I suspect McNeill’s novellas were part of this approach.

Edited by DukeLeto69, 22 July 2021 - 06:53 AM.

  • DarkChaplain likes this




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users