Mortis

[SkimaskMohawk]

The whole plotline gave the impression of something clumsily shoehorned in to give the Dark Angels some presence on Terra. It was at least hinted at in Dreadwing, but nobody even hinted at it in previous books, nor did French make any effort to properly establish it as a vital front in Mortis.

 

 

Kind of makes First Wall even worse in retrospect.

 

"I can't possibly destroy the port that's a massive defensive weakness; we might need it for guilliman to save us even though that'll mean he has orbital supremacy and has already won. But I can't fortify the astronomicon; it's the only thing that can actually get him to terra to save us!"

 

Man I hate the first wall. Butchered some characters in the service of a premise that makes no sense.

Sometimes i think no matter what is being discussed, a portion of the fanbase will find some way to make it about blaming or laying into Gav Thorpe.

I didn't say anything about the author and the astronomicon not being prioritized has a direct correlation to Dorns plan for the Lions Gate port.

[Bobss]

Because the Siege of Terra was supposed to be the focused cumulation of a 54+ book series that was the result of some unbelievable scale creep that ended up bloating the content with nonsensical side characters and plots and aborted threads and regurgitated anthologies and-

 

"Hey guys give us Siege of Terra anthologies!"

 

:cussing shoot me.

 

Hard agree. My Ultimate Horus Heresy Reread, even including Primarchs and Siege of Terra books is barely 20 titles

 

... but at the same time I can understand where people who diligently bought every single entry are coming from, and who want to see all of the storylines like those Iron Hands doing something at the Siege and so forth

 

For what it's worth there will deffo be a McNeill compilation anthology and there's no way Abnett can tie up the Traitors' Rout properly either, given the Emperor's entombing should be the final act of the book (or will it? Abnett is Abnett after all), so I've always expected a book '9.' Plus there's a bunch of late-Heresy stories that aren't yet tied up into a collected print format either

 

I'm a proud senior official of the Horus Heresy Bloat Hate Brigade, but to be brutally honest short stories have never, ever been the problem. The problem was the era in and around 2014-2016 in which anthologies seemed to be replacing proper releases - whether that was actually true or was just apparent I don't know and I don't care either because Anthologies Without End was still a Dark Age and let's call a spade a spade. However, If Black Library intended to release 2-3 Siege books a year, starting in 2019, which themselves were much more streamlined in their approach, and published tons of side material between these releases, oh and actually treated side material as side material instead of pretentiously labelling anthologies as literal numbered entries and all of the aggressive marketing like YOUR NEXT READ and whatnot, it would've satisfied people like me who want Solar War -> Lion's Gate Spaceport -> Eternity Wall Spaceport -> Lion's Gate Spaceport -> Ultimate Gate Showdown -> Vengeful Spirit Showdown, and then people like DC who want everything from small groups of Shattered Legionaries fighting on Terra to the general reaction of the Terran populace etc.

 

Just

My

Take

Edited July 22, 2021 by Bobss

[Fedor]

The messy anthologies without end era was needed because they went through an extended period before that of putting so much into limited editions and event/online only exclusives. Greed prevailed and that was the start of the series fragmenting and losing a lot of good will.

 

If none of that material had been eventually made available to the mainstream i think it would have caused even more resentment, just because of the sheer volume of it.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Fedor

[DukeLeto69]

@Bobss can’t talk for others but I doubt many want everyone ever mentioned in the HH series to have their plotlines/character arcs converge in the SoT. For a start that would be reductive and also patently ridiculous for a galaxy spanning war.

 

However, decent closure for what has already been put out there would be good. Now whether the mechanism for that is a few straggler HH mainline anthologies or perhaps a SoT anthology/couple more novellas or as part of a potential The Scouring series, I don’t know.

 

As per my earlier post, the HH bloat is already a thing. Like it or not it happened. So personally I think better to finish up satisfactorily (from a dramatic pov) then change course yet again.

 

All comes back to whether the HH was a story or a setting. We all know BL ebbed and flowed on that.

[DukeLeto69]

The messy anthologies without end era was needed because they went through an extended period before that of putting so much into limited editions and event/online only exclusives. Greed prevailed and that was the start of the series fragmenting and losing a lot of good will.

 

If none of that material had been eventually made available to the mainstream i think it would have caused even more resentment, just because of the sheer volume of it.

No idea if what I am about to say is true but I am pretty certain I have read from more than one source that the “anthologies without end” era (aka the weaker middle period of releases) coincided with a number of real world things happening in GW world...

 

1. Company structure reorganisation.

2. Subsequent unhappiness with several key authors on new ways or working who stopped writing for BL or substantially reduced the volume.

3. Loss of direction for HH (and BL generally with increased direct GW studio control).

 

I think it is obvious BL (now a few years down the line from recovering their increased autonomy and going back to being more of a publisher and less of a pseudo marketing dept) have learned some lessons from both HH and TBA.

 

SoT has been approached differently.

 

DoF is being approached differently.

 

We will have to wait to judge the results.

[Bobss]

The messy anthologies without end era was needed because they went through an extended period before that of putting so much into limited editions and event/online only exclusives. Greed prevailed and that was the start of the series fragmenting and losing a lot of good will.

 

If none of that material had been eventually made available to the mainstream i think it would have caused even more resentment, just because of the sheer volume of it.

 

Completely agreed with this post, but it got me thinking

 

I feel like in 2021 things are a little bit different to the mid-2010s and it shows the passage of time a little. I remember people on my old forum, some of whom now post on here, getting upset that they weren't able to access, as you rightly say, event-exclusive material. In 2011 I got salty about Aurelian being limited edition and not being able to bag one, and ADB addressed it on his blog (it's true, look it up, 2011, bobss, yaddy yadda). Aurelian was obviously reprinted in Eye of Terra I believe and I don't think a single Horus Heresy piece of content exists that hasn't been collected and reprinted in an anthology, with a few recent exceptions that will obviously make their way into a Siege of Terra anthology

 

Buuuuut if we fastforward to 2021, I regularly see people on Reddit or Goodreads or YouTube or even within my own social circles who weren't fans of the Horus Heresy in the 2010s and who picked up Horus Rising, Book I, and then False Gods, Book II, and kept reading each numbered entry until they either finished it or got sick of it. I've seen or heard literally dozens of examples (sure, this is my own anecdotal experiences, but whatever) of people getting mad that they spent their hard-earned cash on a short-story compilation that contributes nothing significant to the major beats of the Horus Heresy. This is why I still have an axe to grind with anthologies, even though we're well beyond the Anthologies Without End era because Black Library aren't owning up and treating side material as side material. I would argue this to the ends of the earth, even to a BL author if they jumped on here, because it smacks of pure, unadulterated greed. Legacies of Betrayal isn't as important as The First Heretic despite both being major numbered entries, foh

Edited July 22, 2021 by Bobss

[DukeLeto69]

@Bobss I agree that anthologies should not be as important as novels in the series but therein again lies some of the story vs setting problems around the HH.

 

We could all voice a preference for how the HH could/should have been executed and not one would be more valid than any other.

 

FWIW I think the HH SHOULD have been considered a setting (a sandbox) with space to tell all manner of stories set during that time period BUT there should ALSO have been a spine or critical path of core stories that took us from the fall of Horus to the “death” of the Emperor.

 

How that spine is executed would likely also be the target of much debate but FOR ME the focus would be Horus and the Emp with other characters as supporting cast. Ergo I guess a focus on the Sons of Horus?

 

That still leaves plenty of room in the sandbox setting for, say, a Dark Angels trilogy on the fall of Caliban, a book(s) explaining where the Blood Angels went etc etc

[Fedor]

 

The messy anthologies without end era was needed because they went through an extended period before that of putting so much into limited editions and event/online only exclusives. Greed prevailed and that was the start of the series fragmenting and losing a lot of good will.

 

If none of that material had been eventually made available to the mainstream i think it would have caused even more resentment, just because of the sheer volume of it.

 

Completely agreed with this post, but it got me thinking

 

I feel like in 2021 things are a little bit different to the mid-2010s and it shows the passage of time a little. I remember people on my old forum, some of whom now post on here, getting upset that they weren't able to access, as you rightly say, event-exclusive material. In 2011 I got salty about Aurelian being limited edition and not being able to bag one, and ADB addressed it on his blog (it's true, look it up, 2011, bobss, yaddy yadda). Aurelian was obviously reprinted in Eye of Terra I believe and I don't think a single Horus Heresy piece of content exists that hasn't been collected and reprinted in an anthology, with a few recent exceptions that will obviously make their way into a Siege of Terra anthology

 

Buuuuut if we fastforward to 2021, I regularly see people on Reddit or Goodreads or YouTube or even within my own social circles who weren't fans of the Horus Heresy in the 2010s and who picked up Horus Rising, Book I, and then False Gods, Book II, and kept reading each numbered entry until they either finished it or got sick of it. I've seen or heard literally dozens of examples (sure, this is my own anecdotal experiences, but whatever) of people getting mad that they spent their hard-earned cash on a short-story compilation that contributes nothing significant to the major beats of the Horus Heresy. This is why I still have an axe to grind with anthologies, even though we're well beyond the Anthologies Without End era because Black Library aren't owning up and treating side material as side material. I would argue this to the ends of the earth, even to a BL author if they jumped on here, because it smacks of pure, unadulterated greed. Legacies of Betrayal isn't as important as The First Heretic despite both being major numbered entries, foh

 

Oh, no disagreement it was a mess. In retrospect they would have been better giving many of them a seperate sub-series indication.

 

The ones that were closer to essential reading for various factions/characters ended up coming out well after they were at their most relevant. I can't imagine it's enjoyable for a lot of newer readers trying to figure out a reading order, something a lot of these side-stories needed to be at their best.

[Lucerne]

The Siege is everything wrong with the Heresy in a nutshell:

1) Lack of "main plot" and side plot/anthology" separation.

2) Bad pacing

3)Incompetent writers and unqualified writers given key plot points.

4)Too much pointless filler and D-plots that simultaneously manage to not cover key plot element.

5)idiot ball being passed back and forth like a game of beach volleyball.

6)Generally taking a grand epic of demigods and turning it into a black comedy that meanders to a hault.

7)Guilliman fixation while cutting Horus out of his own heresy

 

etc etc

 

at this point just give up on the Siege, read the writers that are worth a damn in it, and wait for FW to detangle this mess.

[USNCenturion]

The old lore that I came up with and found interesting was it was the Dark Angels and Space Wolves coming that panicked Horus and caused the end of the siege. The Ultramarines weren’t even a thought until after the siege and they took the lead on the scouring. It made sense too because the Word Bearers plan was to cripple the Ultramarines. Obviously all of this is retconned and a nothingburger now. Especially considering the freaking Blood Angels were WITH the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.

 

Also. Having Russ AT Terra, then leaving with his whole legion and beating Horus in a fight, only to then go away and keep the stage the same as it was anyway really cheapens the Siege before it’s even started.

 

I just really question so many of the decisions in the HH and SoT it’s hard to get into. Even knowing all this stuff is made up and subject to change and further detail. It’s like a kids drawing of a car and before long there’s a rocket ship, skyscraper, and swimming pool attached to it because it’s aWeSoMe.

 

Eh, anyway, get off my lawn and all that.

[Marshal Rohr]

Unless I’m just totally mistaken The Hollow Mountain was conceptualized and put to print AFTER the writers had started planning the siege and the first books had started to be written. The idea of it being away from the palace and needing to be defended was a later development. Not to mention the Psyker battery walls mentioned in MoM are in the palace and not the Hollow Mountain.

[Scribe]

Unless I’m just totally mistaken The Hollow Mountain was conceptualized and put to print AFTER the writers had started planning the siege and the first books had started to be written. The idea of it being away from the palace and needing to be defended was a later development. Not to mention the Psyker battery walls mentioned in MoM are in the palace and not the Hollow Mountain.

So much for having a plan I guess.

[DukeLeto69]

The old lore that I came up with and found interesting was it was the Dark Angels and Space Wolves coming that panicked Horus and caused the end of the siege. The Ultramarines weren’t even a thought until after the siege and they took the lead on the scouring. It made sense too because the Word Bearers plan was to cripple the Ultramarines. Obviously all of this is retconned and a nothingburger now. Especially considering the freaking Blood Angels were WITH the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.

 

Also. Having Russ AT Terra, then leaving with his whole legion and beating Horus in a fight, only to then go away and keep the stage the same as it was anyway really cheapens the Siege before it’s even started.

 

I just really question so many of the decisions in the HH and SoT it’s hard to get into. Even knowing all this stuff is made up and subject to change and further detail. It’s like a kids drawing of a car and before long there’s a rocket ship, skyscraper, and swimming pool attached to it because it’s aWeSoMe.

 

Eh, anyway, get off my lawn and all that.

Good points.

 

I am clearly one of those who argues that the HH lore was never set and it is the BL books and Forgeworld books that now do define the lore in more details than the sketchy and incoherent Visions material.

 

However, that is not to say I don’t think some of the decisions have been...questionable!

 

For example, the Imperium Secundus idea does, at first, seem like a pretty cool idea to me. I liked it until I started to realise some of the ramifications to what comes next!

 

I know it has been explained but it doesn’t sit comfortably (with me) that the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels were all together in Ultramar but do not then all break through to Terra together for...reasons! Would have worked better (for me) if the Blood Angels had not been part of Imperium Secundus and spent years fighting through the Ruinstorm to get to Terra with no knowledge of the UMs/DAs and what they are up to!

 

Equally Russ and the Wolves doing the okey cokey!

 

Then again, some folks might love all that!

[DukeLeto69]

The Siege is everything wrong with the Heresy in a nutshell:

1) Lack of "main plot" and side plot/anthology" separation.

2) Bad pacing

3)Incompetent writers and unqualified writers given key plot points.

4)Too much pointless filler and D-plots that simultaneously manage to not cover key plot element.

5)idiot ball being passed back and forth like a game of beach volleyball.

6)Generally taking a grand epic of demigods and turning it into a black comedy that meanders to a hault.

7)Guilliman fixation while cutting Horus out of his own heresy

 

etc etc

 

at this point just give up on the Siege, read the writers that are worth a damn in it, and wait for FW to detangle this mess.

Frater I would suggest you don’t hold back and say how you really feel LOL

 

Good points BTW.

[Fedor]

I won't be holding out hope for Forgeworld saving the day. That's already a very different approach which can compliment greatly but never truly replace, and one in which the tone has drifted into semi-marketing/over the top bigging up of the models its release is supporting. Crusade was at least as flawed as any recent siege/HH book.

[Noserenda]

Ah good news for me at least, i assumed the capture of the astronomicon just fell down a hole in my brain, some times plot holes are reassuring :D 

[MillionsSons]

 

 

For example, the Imperium Secundus idea does, at first, seem like a pretty cool idea to me. I liked it until I started to realise some of the ramifications to what comes next!

 

Imperium secundus is the worst for me.

First it doesn’t make any sense. They dont know whether Terra fell but feel like creating another imperium... and discuss about which should be crowned... lol. Ridiculous.

And then all these twist and turns with Konrad (he’s bad and kills my space marines but somehow I dont kill him etc...)

[Kelborn]

=][=

 

Both Mortis related threads were merged together as the spoiler covering topics can still be discussed in here.

 

=][=

Edited July 30, 2021 by Kelborn

[Just123456]

When will Dan Abnett get to the last book? A year to two years? And most of the Siege of Terra books are fine, but only about two of them come close to the best Horus Heresy books. I was fine with most of the Siege of Terra books. Edited August 6, 2021 by Just123456

[Bobss]

When will Dan Abnett get to the last book? A year to two years? And most of the Siege of Terra book are fine, but only about two of them come close to the best Horus Heresy books. I was fine with most of the Siege of Terra books.

 

Second half of 2022 is my bet

[Just123456]

 

When will Dan Abnett get to the last book? A year to two years? And most of the Siege of Terra book are fine, but only about two of them come close to the best Horus Heresy books. I was fine with most of the Siege of Terra books.

 

Second half of 2022 is my bet

The Siege of Terra books are good (most of them), but not as good as the best Horus Heresy books. Edited August 6, 2021 by Just123456

[Just123456]

The theme of Saturnine is deceit, so Erda might have lied.

[Scribe]

The theme of Saturnine is deceit, so Erda might have lied.

 

It is? What plot lines were about deceit?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Abbaddon's; at the end he thinks Perturabo tricked him into choosing to assault the saturnine flaw. For some reason.

[Sothalor]

Well, there's the whole Saturnine Wall gambit, which is Rogal Dorn making a desperate gambit to draw a Sons of Horus spearhead attack by making them think they've spotted a weakness he was unaware of.

 

There's the debate on which of their defenses they need to sacrifice to pull it off and how they need to deceive both the attackers and their own defenders so as not to give any hint that something else is going on.

 

There's the whole debate Harri Harr and Olly Piers have about the nature of myth, belief, faith, foundational narratives, and how much it matters whether such is factual or not.

 

The book opens with Sindermann ruminating on the nature of the universe they inhabit and how they'd all been sold a lie by the Emperor and for what reason he could have done so.

 

If anything, Abaddon's plotline is one of self-deceit - one last grasping effort at selling the lie to himself that the war is still a Legion one, that it's about a political uprising seeking regime change against a tyrant, one that can be won quick and clean by virtue of the old ways.

 

 

Really, if one were to try to assign themes to these novels, there's decent evidence for deceit in its myriad forms and Saturnine.