Command reroll, One, some or all?

[Xenith]

Hi, basically in my local group, we have a few new players and we're stumbling on the command reroll stratagem. They'd been playing a command reroll as 'pick up and reroll all the dice that you just rolled', which is supported by the definition of a reroll in the back of the book:
 

"pick up all the dice you just rolled and roll them again"

 

There was some mystification when I clarified that it should be just one of those dice, however the definition of what the command reroll does, the definition of the reroll and the fast rolling rule have muddied the waters, so please help me explain how this works in the simplest way possible.
 
My best answer is:

•  
• Technically you're supposed to roll each dice individually, so 10 dudes with bolters rapid firing you should roll a single dice to to hit, wound then save 20 times. As you only roll once dice at a time, assumed by the rules, a reroll only affects that one dice. The exception is 'rolls' that use 2 dice at the same time, like charges or psychic tests, where you pick up and roll two. 'Fast dice Rolling' means you pick up all at the same time, doing them all together, but you should still treat them as individual rolls. 
• [the command reroll stratagem] says "after you roll *a* hit roll..." If you speed roll 10 dice simultaneously for 10 guys shooting, that's actually 10 hit rolls, if that makes sense?

Is there a rulebook FAQ, designer commentary etc that I can show the group? They've been playing this way for a while and I don't want to be 'that guy' that's come in and said they're playing wrong.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Xenith

[Halandaar]

Just to confirm that I've understood correctly, are you saying these players would roll 10 dice for 10 Bolters, and then spend a CP to re-roll all ten dice?

[Xenith]

Just to confirm that I've understood correctly, are you saying these players would roll 10 dice for 10 Bolters, and then spend a CP to re-roll all ten dice?

 

Exactly that. There's some nuance in the fast rolling rule, and I was doubting myself when I check the rulebook definition of a reroll as being "pick up al the dice you just rolled and roll them again".

 

They are seeing rolling 10 bolter shots at once as the hit roll, which is then rerolled. It's hard to find any actual example or clarification or intent anywhere to show this is not how it's done, and that attacks are made on a model by model basis, which is when the reroll kicks in, as opposed to unit by unit shooting.

 

I don't want to have a philosophical debate on this with a new group and would prefer to show them a clarification somewhere, if it exists. 

 

Experienced players have a hangover from 8th ed, where the rule was very clear, and: "pick any single dice and reroll it", where the new rule is "reroll a to hit roll", They see the "to hit roll" as them rolling for all the bolters in the unit, and the reroll rule says to pick up all the dice.

 

The only way to seemingly explain it is to get my rules lawyer glasses on and be all "well, actually..." which I do not want. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Xenith

[BluejayJunior]

The beginning paragraph of "Making Attacks" says that attacks can be made one at a time or, in some cases, multiple attacks together. The sequence is for making attacks one at a time.

I would use that to explain that attacks are assumed to be one at a time. I can't think of anything else for this edition to help you. Everything for 8th made it clear, but many people wouldn't view using that as a valid argument. 

[Halandaar]

Yeah I'm not sure there's an easy way to do it other than to highlight that rolling all the dice for all 10 attacks at the same time is a time-saving convenience, and that as far as the rules are concerned, each of those 10 rolls are technically happening separately.

 

If nothing else, it might be worth saying that if it worked that way then rerolls would effectively become a gamble. Especially for something like Marines who hit more often than they miss, you'd potentially end up with a worse outcome if you had to reroll all the dice rather than just the ones that failed, and rerolls already have costs associated with them, having to gamble your successes too would be too much.

[Xenith]

I think this is the closest I can get. This wording is from the 9th ed core rules pdf, but weirdly I think is worded differently in the BRB. I need to check.

For each attack you make one hit roll, a rapid firing weapon makes 2 attacks in short range, ergo a unit of 10 marines rapid firing makes 20 attacks, and therefore 20 "hit rolls" . The reroll strat allows you to reroll a single "hit roll", so you get to reroll one dice.

Again, too complex to have to explain to folks, this should really be spelled out in the BRB.

[Rik Lightstar]

The 40k app spells it out as:

 

A hit roll, a wound roll, a damage roll, etc

 

All explicitly singular, meaning they result to a single roll. References to multiple dice are there for Charge Rolls, Psychic Tests, or potentially Damage rolls with some weapons.

 

Fast rolling is just a time saving exercise, each attack is still considered a separate individual roll.

 

Rik

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah the app covers this quite well.

[Quixus]

The 40k app spells it out as:

 

A hit roll, a wound roll, a damage roll, etc

 

All explicitly singular, meaning they result to a single roll. References to multiple dice are there for Charge Rolls, Psychic Tests, or potentially Damage rolls with some weapons.

 

Fast rolling is just a time saving exercise, each attack is still considered a separate individual roll.

 

Rik

The rulebook says the same.

[War Angel]

Legitimately interested in what his playgroup says after being told the correct way to play.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Me too War Angel. Me too.

[xommul]

I would also suggest for the group to watch one of the  You Tube channels "How to play 9th edition 40k" videos and possibly one or two of the numerous Battle reports and note the instances of where re rolls are used. 

 

There may be confusion around a CP re roll and an aura re roll ability say of a chapter master or LT which gives your unit the ability to re roll all Hit Rolls or HR of 1 or Wound Rolls. 

 

These two rules are very different. A CP Re roll rolls a single attack and lets say a Bolt Rifle double tapping makes 2 attacks you can re roll one of those attacks. But the Re Roll aura ability of a Chapter master allows you to re roll all hit rolls. You could potentially also re roll your successful hits if fishing for 6s if they got you mortal wounds or extra AP. 

 

Also most re rolls for a charge mean you have to re roll both dice (unless specified otherwise) again adding complication 

 

For new players getting into the game there are definitely many nuances to wrap your head around. 

[Xenith]

The  app 

 

the app 

 

We're currently not using the app, going by rulebook.

 

 

The 40k app spells it out as:

 

A hit roll, a wound roll, a damage roll, etc

 

All explicitly singular, meaning they result to a single roll. References to multiple dice are there for Charge Rolls, Psychic Tests, or potentially Damage rolls with some weapons.

 

Fast rolling is just a time saving exercise, each attack is still considered a separate individual roll.

 

Rik

The rulebook says the same.

 

 

I think the confusion, as I said, was between the fast rolling rule. They were seeing all the dice for a units shooting being 'the hit roll'. 

 

I would also suggest for the group to watch one of the  You Tube channels "How to play 9th edition 40k" videos and possibly one or two of the numerous Battle reports and note the instances of where re rolls are used. 

 

There may be confusion around a CP re roll and an aura re roll ability say of a chapter master or LT which gives your unit the ability to re roll all Hit Rolls or HR of 1 or Wound Rolls. 

 

 

 

I can't really ask people to sit down and watch hours of battle reports  But yes, possibly the confusion is coming from the reroll auras etc. 

 

Legitimately interested in what his playgroup says after being told the correct way to play.

 

It's moving towards the single roll, however a poll (that prompted my post) was split on whether it was reroll one or reroll all. The group had been playing that way for a while. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Xenith

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hopefully y’all figure it out .