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Catalog of the State of the Game and its Future

Horus Heresy

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#26
sarabando

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Why is FW so reclutant to release a new Heresy box? It's all the fans ever ask for these days. Well, that and MK2 armor. Or is it because GeeDubs fears it will remind people that non-primaris marines exist?

it is quite odd when things like 40k/AOS/Warcry get regular big boxes warcry has had what 3 starter sets in a few years? We are always getting AOS boxes with 2 armies and new characters. but TBH what would tthey put in it? there are only what 6 plastic heresy lkits? enough for 1 or 2 limited run boxes



#27
Noserenda

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The previous attitude was that as a game for "veterans" Aod didnt need a starter or a start collecting box, that has thankfully changed apparently because it was... A take... :D 


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#28
Darkwrath121

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This uncertainty (especially now), as well as Anuj's insistence that there's 'great things to come' has actually reminded me of something.

We've yet to get answers regarding the mysterious Horus Heresy and Warhammer Forge tabs on the GW site, which appeared briefly by mistake, months back. I'm pretty hobby-pessimistic, in general, but I'm intrigued about how all that feeds into the overall picture/plan.

Edited by Darkwrath121, 11 December 2020 - 04:15 AM.

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#29
Aztek

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Every Sunday is a sad Sunday with no Contekar Terminator Elite's being previewed. sad.png

 

Originally previewed in like... Feb. Getting close to a year now! lol. Getting into absurd levels of waiting for a product to drop.


Edited by Aztek, 11 December 2020 - 04:51 AM.

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#30
Sandlemad

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I do suspect a lot of the consistent issues in FW can be put down to internal disorganisation, both within FW and in how FW relates to GW as a larger entity. James Hewitt's interview for Goonhammer isn't unusually negative and does pre-date the SG/FW reshuffle but there's stuff there that I doubt has gone away, e.g. bottlenecks around editing/layout/art allocations, lack of communication leading to GW proper making 11th hour snap decisions about entire ranges, Tony Cottrell being... capricious. The switch to a heresy-only team most likely wouldn't change a lot of that.


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#31
sarabando

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Every Sunday is a sad Sunday with no Contekar Terminator Elite's being previewed. sad.png

Originally previewed in like... Feb. Getting close to a year now! lol. Getting into absurd levels of waiting for a product to drop.


Every Friday is just another no 30k release for FAw these days

#32
Robbienw

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Yeah the Contekar are taking a ridiculous amount of time.  10 whole months so far since the first preview in Road to Thramas part 3 published on Feb 3rd 2020!



#33
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Something has to break there at some point, however. Unless they've stepped up production of Necromunda, Titanicus, etc., they have to run out eventually.

 

I do remember that website change. As well when they announced their 40k phone application, they mentioned that the account for that will eventually be global between the Games Workshop site/shop and the Forge World site/shop.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 11 December 2020 - 12:02 PM.

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#34
Robbienw

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We haven't actually seen anything new previewed since April when Tarvitz and the WB praetors were shown.  I'm surprised we haven't see anything yet on a Corswain model, as DA haven't had the customary non-primarch special character model yet.  Also would have expected to see something on the sky seeker jetbikes from Crusade.  And the DA Firewing unit and Excindio battle automata.



#35
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I think they just don't want to dig the hole deeper. Showing off all of that whilst we're still waiting wouldn't go well, so it's understandable.


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#36
sarabando

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I think they just don't want to dig the hole deeper. Showing off all of that whilst we're still waiting wouldn't go well, so it's understandable.

i dunno id feel happy if they did a video with a sneek peak of those things with a bear with us covid is BS and has screwed everything message



#37
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That would involve talking to us biggrin.png

 

So I don't think we're there yet...


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#38
Pacific81

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I think given the price of FW miniatures and their lack of accessibility compared to the standard range, 30k is always going to remain fairly niche. 

 

But my point would be.. what is wrong with that? As long as the sales are enough for the range to stay in stock (or for other suppliers to cater for that) then surely that's fine?

 

It might be as I follow a number of 'dead' games (and by that I mean, no longer GW-supported games) but they still have large communities of fans, fan-hosted forums and quite often rules freely available. There were still Blood Bowl tournaments in Europe with hundreds of attendees, rivalling the biggest 40k tournaments, before the game was relaunched by GW. Necromunda and Epic similarly have sizeable fan communities for the games which have maintained them long since GW stopped Specialist games, and actually a whole range of garage-produced miniature makers have grown to cater for those communities. And, the main thing is that it's never that much trouble (depending on where you live of course) to find a community and other like-minded players to play the games themselves. Yaktribe and other community hubs will be catering for the mass of very enthused Necromunda fans long after GW stops releasing new minis and rules for that game, as they did following the classic edition. Similarly, I daresay that B&C will keep this sub-forum going as long as there are supporters posting in it, new FW releases or no.  

 

30k will live or die by the quality of rules, miniatures and fan community that lives around it. 'Big ticket' releases will help keep some of it in focus, but I think it's a mistake to think that the game needs heavy official support in order to remain alive. 

 

Just my 2c as someone collecting a niche within a niche (Epic for 30k so fan-adapted rules for a game system that hasn't been officially supported for 20 years!) smile.png


Edited by Pacific81, 21 December 2020 - 04:59 PM.


#39
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I think given the price of FW miniatures and their lack of accessibility compared to the standard range, 30k is always going to remain fairly niche. 
 
But my point would be.. what is wrong with that? As long as the sales are enough for the range to stay in stock (or for other suppliers to cater for that) then surely that's fine?
 
It might be as I follow a number of 'dead' games (and by that I mean, no longer GW-supported games) but they still have large communities of fans, fan-hosted forums and quite often rules freely available. There were still Blood Bowl tournaments in Europe with hundreds of attendees, rivalling the biggest 40k tournaments, before the game was relaunched by GW. Necromunda and Epic similarly have sizeable fan communities for the games which have maintained them long since GW stopped Specialist games, and actually a whole range of garage-produced miniature makers have grown to cater for those communities. And, the main thing is that it's never that much trouble (depending on where you live of course) to find a community and other like-minded players to play the games themselves. Yaktribe and other community hubs will be catering for the mass of very enthused Necromunda fans long after GW stops releasing new minis and rules for that game, as they did following the classic edition. Similarly, I daresay that B&C will keep this sub-forum going as long as there are supporters posting in it, new FW releases or no.  
 
30k will live or die by the quality of rules, miniatures and fan community that lives around it. 'Big ticket' releases will help keep some of it in focus, but I think it's a mistake to think that the game needs heavy official support in order to remain alive. 
 
Just my 2c as someone collecting a niche within a niche (Epic for 30k so fan-adapted rules for a game system that hasn't been officially supported for 20 years!) :)


Disagree, if the support isn't stepped up HH will become even more of a smaller following. Its evolving into the gen y equivilent of tabletop historicals that boomers are into, an ever shrinking neiche. Plastic vechicles and plastics for general HH infantry at sensible prices are sorely needed more than a big rules re-vamp. If HH is in the same price range as main 40k, many plastic kits and is welcomed in offical GW stores HH hss a chance to live again. Its not complicated to fix it just needs to happen right now.
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#40
Pacific81

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I think given the price of FW miniatures and their lack of accessibility compared to the standard range, 30k is always going to remain fairly niche. 
 
But my point would be.. what is wrong with that? As long as the sales are enough for the range to stay in stock (or for other suppliers to cater for that) then surely that's fine?
 
It might be as I follow a number of 'dead' games (and by that I mean, no longer GW-supported games) but they still have large communities of fans, fan-hosted forums and quite often rules freely available. There were still Blood Bowl tournaments in Europe with hundreds of attendees, rivalling the biggest 40k tournaments, before the game was relaunched by GW. Necromunda and Epic similarly have sizeable fan communities for the games which have maintained them long since GW stopped Specialist games, and actually a whole range of garage-produced miniature makers have grown to cater for those communities. And, the main thing is that it's never that much trouble (depending on where you live of course) to find a community and other like-minded players to play the games themselves. Yaktribe and other community hubs will be catering for the mass of very enthused Necromunda fans long after GW stops releasing new minis and rules for that game, as they did following the classic edition. Similarly, I daresay that B&C will keep this sub-forum going as long as there are supporters posting in it, new FW releases or no.  
 
30k will live or die by the quality of rules, miniatures and fan community that lives around it. 'Big ticket' releases will help keep some of it in focus, but I think it's a mistake to think that the game needs heavy official support in order to remain alive. 
 
Just my 2c as someone collecting a niche within a niche (Epic for 30k so fan-adapted rules for a game system that hasn't been officially supported for 20 years!) smile.png


Disagree, if the support isn't stepped up HH will become even more of a smaller following. Its evolving into the gen y equivilent of tabletop historicals that boomers are into, an ever shrinking neiche. Plastic vechicles and plastics for general HH infantry at sensible prices are sorely needed more than a big rules re-vamp. If HH is in the same price range as main 40k, many plastic kits and is welcomed in offical GW stores HH hss a chance to live again. Its not complicated to fix it just needs to happen right now.

 

 

I think that the '30k' concept and gaming is interesting enough that it will survive. If you think that it started in the late 00's with no specialist rules or miniature support whatsoever. Literally everything that was made was conversion from other GW pieces, garage casting and some other smaller companies that started on the periphery. 

But the idea of wanting to play in that setting, something the same as but markedly different from 40k, was so cool that people made that effort. 

 

I agree that the FW pricing currently probably acts as a barrier, but I think it's probably plain to see that GW view this as a specialist/niche system (mostly played by veterans who have higher disposable income) and it probably doesn't make sense to have it as a 'competitor' and potentially confuse people coming into the game that want to play 40k. 

 

PS - More than just boomers are into historicals, could do without stereotyping there :) 



#41
SkimaskMohawk

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The stance of "official support doesnt matter; community will keep it alive" isnt necessarily wrong and you can kind of see it already with AT2018 where the core matched mission sucks and a lot of people go to make their own missions as a result.

But the main difference between the multiple unsupported specialist games and 30k is that we've been told for a few years that 30k was a core game alongside 40k and aos through their investor reports. That's not something you expect to then get...minimal...attention and a team of 2 people.

#42
sarabando

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With the internet and 3d printing I think it would do better if it was left to the community than if it happened a few years ago. But tbh it shouldn't be down to us to keep it going like that. It's clear that there is a solid and passionate community who are willing to spend a fortune( much like xenos 40k players) who just need the support from GW/FW

#43
Gattopardo

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The stance of "official support doesnt matter; community will keep it alive" isnt necessarily wrong and you can kind of see it already with AT2018 where the core matched mission sucks and a lot of people go to make their own missions as a result.

But the main difference between the multiple unsupported specialist games and 30k is that we've been told for a few years that 30k was a core game alongside 40k and aos through their investor reports. That's not something you expect to then get...minimal...attention and a team of 2 people.

 

I do agree with this. It's odd to hear, on the one hand, from GW corporate that the Heresy is an important part of their strategy, and then on the other hand, to hear how few people actually work on the game at FW.

 

Especially as so far as I can tell sales are - to say the least - very healthy.

 

Now, GW are a cautious organisation (overly so in many ways) so I do expect they are worried about cannibalising 40K sales and causing confusion - and I think they very much will always want 40K to be the dominant sci fi setting that they offer. This is arguably even more relevant now the rules have diverged so much.

 

But that said - they've spent years developing the IP through the novels and an increasingly full range of models. So I'd be surprised if they didn't think it was important going forward - and of course they've also brought out AT, which is set in the Heresy and is largely plastic. I don't think they are going to stop supporting it.

 

Now in fairness, I think GW would say that producing 9 campaign books, lavish rulebooks and a large model range (mostly resin, but still) isn't "minimal" attention. But given the size of the company these days and the fact they're very very profitable, in reality it really is minimal. So, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. The explanation here for me is basically that they make a lot of very profitable sales to people like us. So there just isn't an impetus to do anything differently. That may be wrong - I think it is wrong, I think with a core range in plastic and a better resourced design studio they'd make even more money. But, as long as they're profitable and growing, I'm not sure that they will change.



#44
MegaVolt87

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[quote name="Pacific81" post="5646956" timestamp="1608646425"][quote name="MegaVolt87" post="5646819" timestamp="1608581954"]
[quote name="Pacific81" post="5646762" timestamp="1608569865"]
I think given the price of FW miniatures and their lack of accessibility compared to the standard range, 30k is always going to remain fairly niche. 
 
SNIP FOR SPACE

Disagree, if the support isn't stepped up HH will become even more of a smaller following. Its evolving into the gen y equivilent of tabletop historicals that boomers are into, an ever shrinking neiche. Plastic vechicles and plastics for general HH infantry at sensible prices are sorely needed more than a big rules re-vamp. If HH is in the same price range as main 40k, many plastic kits and is welcomed in offical GW stores HH hss a chance to live again. Its not complicated to fix it just needs to happen right now.
[/quote]
 
I think that the '30k' concept and gaming is interesting enough that it will survive. If you think that it started in the late 00's with no specialist rules or miniature support whatsoever. Literally everything that was made was conversion from other GW pieces, garage casting and some other smaller companies that started on the periphery. 
But the idea of wanting to play in that setting, something the same as but markedly different from 40k, was so cool that people made that effort. 
 
I agree that the FW pricing currently probably acts as a barrier, but I think it's probably plain to see that GW view this as a specialist/niche system (mostly played by veterans who have higher disposable income) and it probably doesn't make sense to have it as a 'competitor' and potentially confuse people coming into the game that want to play 40k. 
 
PS - More than just boomers are into historicals, could do without stereotyping there :)
[/quote]

HH as a competition to 40k dosn't matter. Marine sales are marine sales regardless of period, revenue is revenue.

HH to historical comparison is a fair one. While historicals may not be expensive, accessibility, model quality/ availability, community building are issues both face. I know people that could afford to do HH here in OZ but I have no good arguments why they should bother with one HH army when they could buy two 40k ones all in plastic for the same money and immediately have a wider player community to engage with from the start. There is absolutely no difference for people like that to spend that kind of money on one HH army or 2 40k ones. Cheaper HH means one HH and one 40k army instead. More HH support still sees money on GW's coffers and a more diverse community that can grow off each other.
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#45
WrathOfTheLion

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Optimizing the core range I think is the most imperative for them to solve. Get some plastic kits out for rhinos, assault marines, destroyers, etc.

 

Just those things are going to make up a large chunk of your army and the work. People will be much more receptive to having the breakdown be resin for the tanks and characters, but plastic for most of the bread and butter. Terminators and line infantry have a ton of coverage, just a couple more kits would go very far.


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#46
Askari

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Horus Heresy can't be compared to other specialist games. Those all were much cheaper than 40k and unique while Heresy is more expensive and also very close to the same niche as 40k.
QUOTE (c-wrex @ Jul 24 2009, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know it's a hands down win. That's why I'm saying there is no comparison necessary. Would Kimbo Slice beat up that dork who plays Harry Potter? Absolutely. (and I'd pay MILLIONS to see that happen) Is any comparison between Kimbo and the dork necessary? No.


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#47
WrathOfTheLion

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It can easily be compared to SG, because it can and should be run in a similar manner. Build a core line of plastic kits and further auxiliary items in FW resin.


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#48
Indefragable

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If I were a betting man, I'd say 75% of the negative perception towards FW and 30k at the moment is because of some bad leadership at chokepoints. I don't have any evidence I can point to beyond what I have personally observed and connecting the dots with some things that have come out (like James Hewitt's interview on Goonhammer), so I don't want to come off as a conspiracy theorist, but I have a serious hunch....like the noir detective who just knows who committed the crime but doesn't have enough proof to put in front of the jury. 

 

I think a lot of creativity is being stifled by old methods and mindsets. And the successes that have happened, especially with the huge growth of 8th/9th/AoS in the past few years has given a false sense of understanding what works and what doesn't. Does the 30k team stick to what they've been doing, or change it up to try to emulate other products' success? You and I have our answers, but I don't think the business leaders running 30k have an answer, or even a plan to find the answer. 

 

Consider what happens after all the Primarchs are released model-wise. 30k is over? Malcador and The Emperor get figs and maybe an up-daemoned Horus? All the daemon-Primarchs get another model and rules? 

 

With Malevolence and Crusade we've seen additional units that all Legions can take, such as Nullifactors, Hussars, etc.... do "we" want more of that? If so, how do we "vote" for that with our wallets if those units do not have official kits (let alone in our price ranges)?  

 

My hunch is that there is an internal conflict going on about how to execute the ideas that the team clearly has/had. I don't think the devs are wrong when they elude to the amount of content they have ready to go.....but the GW model is Models > Lore > Rules so their formula is weighted in the wrong direction at the moment. If they can get past that roadblock then I think we're in for some truly good times. Emphasis on if

 

Personally, I would love to see more books exploring all the little skirmishes and goings-on that happen during the Heresy. More of Book 4 and Book 6 if you will, that stuff that really fleshes things out and reminds us that wars are often a pattern of small decisive skirmishes more than grand set-piece battles. I would also like to see more moments exploring what the Primarchs and named characters (especially the ones with models!) were doing all this time....basically an excuse to use the amazing models and rules as much as possible, if you're into that. It seems dumb to have Sanguinius fight Kha'Bhanda at Signus and then show up on the walls of Terra and that's it...give us the Battle of Davin, Beta Gammon, and of bunch of other cool scenarios. But that's me. 


Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#49
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I think as well there was a very real consideration from them that 30k could compete with or undermine their changes to 40k if given strong support during the 7E-8E transition.

 

So perhaps just from that they let the foot off the gas to make sure 40k could stabilize before moving ahead again.


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