94 replies to this topic

[Metaliptica]

Pretty much what the tittle says. I was in the middle of writting a letter asking for an FAQ to fix some of the problems with the DA and just paused to wonder what might other people want to see in the next FAQ.

 

I have a lot of ideas about what to ask about the DA mainly, but just wondered what some legions I didn't know very well would hope for.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Word Bearers - Daemon allies from their RoW now that Daemons of the Ruinstorm are out. It says to reference Codex: Chaos Daemons, but that doesn't work anymore since it can't even be purchased.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 09 December 2020 - 03:02 PM.

[Monkeychunks]

Depends if you want straight forward FAQ resolutions or a further-reaching errata. For my own interests:

Legion list
Clarity regarding certain Rites and their restrictions. Many of them are very unclear about what is prohibited because they reference things that don't exist or forget how their own units work, or just plain don't work.
Breachers in need of a points reduction or experimental rules

Word Bearers
FAQ
Clarify the RAI-RAW situation with Burning Lore and Daemonology.
Clarify the limitations on Serrated Sun regarding what 'teleporting' means.
Is Lorgar allowed to choose his Daemonology powers or are they rolled randomly?
Is Zardu Layaks +1 to Dark Channelling optional?

Errata
Dark Brethren Rite is in serious need of some TLC
Mhara Gal in need of a hefty point reduction
Word Bearers should probably have *something* to do with Daemons. The simplest thing would probably be to lower everyone else to Fellow Warriors rather than Brothers.

Raven Guard
FAQ
When Corax reappears via Shadowed Lord, is it intended that he has to walk back on from his DZ? Outflank or Deep Strike feels more appropriate but is prohibited by the rules for ongoing reserves.
While I feel the RAW is clear, can you please explicitly state whether Rapier Guns can infiltrate or not? Similarly for Praevians and Mortifactors.

Errata
Please let Jump Infantry benefit from Wing and Talon again. Even if the Infiltrate is too much, they really should have Fleet.
Liberation Force being Battle Brothers with Militia would be a huge shot in the arm.
While I love them, Combi Flamer Mor Deythan are probably too much. I would like to see this reined in somehow and the snipers made much stronger. This might need experimental rules rather than an errata.

[Nomadic Thunder]

Dark Angels:

scions and hekatonystika points costs and benefits especially for the scions; ironwing benefit, ravenwing thrust move?

firewing cabal unit size option, assault grenades and double hatred.

auto-losses and VP allocations in the rites of war,

plasma repeater range (just beg for it to be increased)

 

Sons of Horus Reavers. I love the lore and models, the points cost is too high, just need updating in the same vein as ashen circle.

[TheTrans]

Fix the Malcador's line up of the terrible blanket nerf.

 

Either large point drops across the field, or more logically, reinstate Super Heavy Status and just remove Their ability to Thunder Blitz and Big bada boom. 

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I would like something to be done with NL Contekar Terminators, it's really weird that they have 3 weapons completely exclusive to them and all of hem are of debatable usefulness (unswappable rending swords on Termis are fairly underwhelming, so is heavy volkite weapon with range of a serpenta and overpriced shredding fist). This might be a minor issue overall but I feel frustrated by it.

It might get me ostracized by members of the VIIIth but I feel like Night Raptors' Bloody Murder rule might be too powerful, this unit can very well hit and wound on 2s and then cause an extra 33% more wounds against marines. It makes me feel guilt when i use them. 

 

Aside from my own legion, I would happily see some rework for Word Bearers as Monkeychunks stated; their rites are just weird and Mhara Gal is a joke to me, On the other hand, their Hol Beloth is really cheap for what he offers -  similarly equiped praetor would be some 20pts more and wouldn't have his pseudo-Eternal Warrior/extra wound rule and buff. I might be partial here as I play against him... 

 

Breachers and to lesser extent Recon squad could use some price reduction, similar to what they've done to bring Assault squads in line. 

Edited by Lautrec the Embraced, 10 December 2020 - 10:16 AM.

[SkimaskMohawk]

FAQ ongoing reserves to say a deepstrike mishap allows you to re-deepstrike. It works this way for summoned units, but a pod that scatters off the board and is delayed dies.

Fix the praevian and other characters that can join MCs so they can't allocate all the grenade hits and nullify them.

Fix the spicula so people don't need to have an argument and use a protractor to fire the thing properly.

Fix tank shock so there's no magic bubble around impassable.

Return the ruin rules to 6th; the entire premise of barrage and blast weapons available was built on that structure of defensive options, now a ruin is a death trap against barrage.

I'm sure there's more generic rules stuff. Theres a ton of legion fixes.

[Chaeron]

Allow Durak Rask to count as a Siege Breaker for the Death Guard RoW is about the only thing that would regularly influence my usual play! 

[Varyn]

Off the top of my head some legion specific units that need adjusting in some way:

 

Phoenix terminators

Iron circle 

Crimson Paladins

Gorgon terminators

Rampagers

Fulmentarus terminators

Sehkmet terminators*

Reavers

Pyroclasts

Headhunters

 

*these are probably the only unit in the above list which need toning down, but I am not going down that road!

 

You could similarly draw up a list of special characters, rites of war and of course primarchs!

 

The issues are mostly a mixture of power creep and similar units being improved e.g. seekers, which leaves legion specific counterparts looking poor by comparison (headhunters). The FAQ from Feb 2019 was (for the most part) a great help and gave a lot of players hope for improvements which meant that lots of units which you don't see on the table, might get a look in. Unfortunately there wasn't a follow up

Edited by Varyn, 12 December 2020 - 02:47 PM.

[Mogsam]

Phoenix terminators need access to melta bombs or the option to take chainfists in some way and they're fine. It's the complete lack of anti dread that makes them imo, unusable, tho the non-charging AP3 spears don't help. Particularly as Fulgrim isn't good at taking dreads in and they're his bodyguards.

EC spears need another look at. When they're the signature weapon and two other legions do it better, there's something wrong.

Pyroclasts probably need another attack. They're okay, but they're a close assault unit that can't kill anything in combat.

Rampagers are just problematic as their weapons are expensive but don't really add much.

I'd like to see Breachers drop down in points. They're not useful at the moment and they're a cool idea. Similarly, assault marines could do with a points drop.

[The Scorpion]

Word Bearers should probably have *something* to do with Daemons. The simplest thing would probably be to lower everyone else to Fellow Warriors rather than Brothers.
 

 

I believe the Dark Bretheren should be given Terror Assault treatment and be reworked entirely. Deathwing and Stormwing ROWs should also be remade from scratch.

[Metaliptica]

Just to add my little piece,
I think that they could cement their playtest rules as definitive (I have yet to meet someone who doesn't use them at this point). They've been out for almost 2 Years now : it's time to decide what to do with them.
I'd like some general fixing like legally allowing the Khan to ride along with his sons in his RoW (and while they are at it, maybe think about making him WS 8?)
Add in some points/rules adjustments:
DA rites and Scion rule need some revision and some old units could use a buff (Reivers come to mind): They've done an good job with the revisited NL units so there is a reason to be optimistic about this. At the same time, some other units' point cost should be incresed (looking at Sekhmet Terminators, Angel's Tears and Deathwing Companions specifically here).
Some old wargear need some attention (EC spears are just begging to gain rending and WE Cadere weapons need some attention too) while I'd also love to see the divining blade nerfed
Finally my personal wish is that they give the Lion a reworked ruleset that does a better job at reflecting the character they described him to be.
 

[Marshal Rohr]

Allow militia to put a mixture of infantry squads and weapons teams into one Troop slot.

[Hfran Morkai]

More errata wise I guess.

I would like to see Recon Squads/Legion specific equivalents be able to explicitly infiltrate in Orbital Assault lists.

Because having your pathfinders deployed before your pods hit makes sense.

Maybe there needs to be a bit of balancing though as that's then nunico-vox starting on the field which could be pretty powerful.

[Noserenda]

Allow militia to put a mixture of infantry squads and weapons teams into one Troop slot.

Oooh this, that or legitimise multiple focs, I could easily fill 12 troop slots in my militia army. Some way of fielding slotless command squads for them would be ace too.

[Spagunk]

some other units' point cost should be incresed (looking at Sekhmet Terminators, Angel's Tears and Deathwing Companions specifically here).

What's wrong with angel's tears?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Extremely efficient compared to the equivalent options. Seriously, compare their loadout to a destroyer and say their points are accurate.

[Indefragable]

In terms of pure FAQ/clearing things up:

 

Blood Angels:

 

Dawnbreakers:

• Do their wrist-mounted launchers count as Frag Grenades for the purposes of keeping initiative while charging through terrain? (It seems VERY clear by far-sweeping consensus that this is RAI, but RAW, it shows them as not having Assault Grenades at all...which given everything about the unit would be the just mind boggling on all levels to put it mildly). 

 

Judicar Aster Crohne: 

• Clarification/"fixing" of Virtue of Judgement special rule. It's a mess: as written, you pick D3 enemy units and whenever a Destroyer unit shoots those units, his hand flamers gain Shred + Rending. Huh? Also, is it Destroyer unit only or does Angel's Tears count?
• Also, is he supposed to have a Jump Pack (given he can't really attach to Angel's Tears otherwise....if his RAW is his RAI he basically becomes unusable). 

Will add more, especially with more "re-work" stuff (like, just re-do Crimson Paladins lol) but that's the pressing "need clarification stuff". 

[Lautrec the Embraced]

 

some other units' point cost should be incresed (looking at Sekhmet Terminators, Angel's Tears and Deathwing Companions specifically here).

What's wrong with angel's tears?

 

 

I wouldn't call Angel's Tears particularly wrong or outraging, to me they just feel slightly on the cheap side especially if you compare them to destroyers. 10 Erelims cost some 30-40 pts less than 10 barebones destroyers with jump packs while retaining superior firepower (+63% vs MEQs albeit shorter range) with serpentas and they also have different, probably more flexible wargear choices. Destroyers fans might get jealous I guess... maybe easing up on jump pack cost could solve the issue.

[The Observer]

Generic Legion Stuff

-Breachers: Give them access to CCW. Hell, let me take Chainswords instead of bolters and I might consider them for my Blood Angels.

-Cement playtest rules as definitive. Destroyers finally feel like they should always have.

 

Dark Angels

-Scrap the Deathwing and Stormwing rites of war because they are just awful and re-write them from the ground up. The Deathwing one is an objectively far more terrible Pride of the Legion with no reason whatsoever to take it and the Stormwing one has super neat ideas but the way the centurion upgrade and requirement works basically guarantees that A.) Only the highest of points games will ever see a stormwing army and B.) they cannot properly utilize their advantages due to how the centurion requirement is worded (i.e. only your compulsory troops choices get a slot-less Centurion - all other units don't).

-Give Interemptors access to Rhinos as a DT. Practically nobody will take them in a Dreadwing army because just taking a basic 10 man squad with their DT of a Land Raider Proteus will run you around 450p which is insane. Rhinos would solve this issue.

-Allow the Enigmatus Cabal to vary its unit size. Being stuck at just 3 models is super weird and sees them mulched within moments. It also doesn't help that a unit that's supposed to be centered around character assassination is eternally stuck with AP3.

-Clarify if the Legion Rule Mastery of the Blade applies to Corswain's The Blade.

-Clarify if the prior RItes of War available in book 6 (Ironwing and Ravenwing Protocol) are obsolete now or technically still usable.

-Rework the Scions of the XYZ-Wing rules. Their points costs are insane and whichever legion RoW you take will mean that you have to sink in 75 points into upgrades that are oftentimes just nonsensical. Why would anyone take Scion of the Deathwing for a singular reroll in a challenge - an upgrade that does not confer to the attached unit AND is 25 points - when you could instead take Scion of the Firewing for the same points cost and grant the character and attached unit Hatred (Characters) instead for the same points? Scion of the Stormwing will almost never be useful as will Scion of the Ravenwing. Scion of the Ironwing will be ignored by a 5p upgrade that is virtually ubiquitous across armies. Only Scion of the Firewing and Scion of the Dreadwing are remotely worth taking. I had expected something alongside the Thousand Sons temple rules - stuff that is actually beneficial - just maybe a tad toned down.

-An access to AP2 swords as legion items so that our sergeants could take actual advantage of their legion rules. Doesn't have to be as strong as the WS glaives - AP2 at initiative swords would do perfectly fine, even if priced similarly as WS glaives. Hell, I'd take them.

 

Blood Angels

-Clarify the Grenade issue with the Dawnbreakers. Do they now have assault grenades or not?

-Add jump-pack upgrades for our characters. The fact that Crohne and Raldoron don't have any access to them is just stupid. Particularly Crohne, who is the legion equivalent of a Moritat Prime and supposed to hang with the Erelim and the Destroyers.

-Scrap and rewrite the rules for the Crimson Paladins. From front to back these just don't make any sense whatsoever - which is a shame considering how SICK they look.

 

Alpha Legion

-Just do something to make Saboteurs and Headhunters worth taking. I'd love to play the Headhunter Leviathal but having to take Headhunters themselves is just naff.

-Alternatively: Let me take Seekers as a troops option in the Headhunter leviathal. After having used Seekers as troops in my Firewing army, I have learned to appreciate them a LOT.

 

Iron Warriors

-Iron Circle need some fixing 'cause I hate the way my four battle-bots are collecting dust in their case.

-Erasmus Golg should have Leadership 10

-While not having to take morale tests from shooting is nice, the second part of our Legion Rule (giving wrecker to grenades) is pretty much nonexistent. It'd be nice to get something actually useful - I've been playing a lot of 40k IW recently and while being able to fully ignore most types of building-provided cover might be a bit much, I think something similar to that might prove to be fluffy and strong at the same time.

-Not technically part of the thread topic but I don't get to mention it enough: Give me rules for Dantioch. Turn him into a force-multiplier, like a frail Perty or a mini-Guilliman. Pls.

Edited by The Observer, 14 December 2020 - 01:36 AM.

[Hfran Morkai]

Realised a couple more things I'd like to see.

•I'd like Breachers to be able to take Drop Pods in OA.
•Legion specific weapons to become available to characters, not necessarily just ICs. For example with my Wolves a Slayer Huscarl can have a Frost Weapon but a Veteran Squad Sergeant can't. I'd like to see this across all the Legions.
•Would like to see Frost Axes become an option, possibly losing Specialist Weapon? At the moment on a Huscarl it is more expensive than a Power Fist but also -2 strength compared to the Fist. On an IC they cost the same.

[Aias]

My current list of changes I'd like to see:

 

*Headhunters need a rework; they're just not as good as Seekers, when they really are supposed to be.

*Laerneans are decent, but are underwhelming compared to other options. I'd love to see them get a slight boost - maybe a second wound? For their supposed uses in background fluff, they're just not survivable enough.

*Angel's Tears, for as much as I love them, are too cheap for what they can do. There's no reason to *not* take them if you have the option.

*Breachers need a points reduction.

*Can we squadron our Sicarans yet? At least the original version? I wants to run more of them.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten a game in for over six months which makes me sad, so I don't have any more general recommendations. But an FAQ anytime soon would be nice.

[ShadowCore67]

I'm only going to add my two cents on DA because that's what I've been working with most recently:

Scion/Order upgrades: Some of them need buffed a bit and all of them need to be cheaper. Maybe 15 points. The only good scion upgrade is firewing. I've seen some ideas about making scion upgrades cheaper/free if taken with the corresponding rite which I think would be cool.

Deathwing Rite: Get rid of the ridiculous objective mechanics and the objective that gives your opponent 3 points. I like the idea of your elite troops getting FNP or better FNP but base it on something else like board zone or something (Or just give all deathwing squads a 6+ FNP).

Ironwing Rite: Change the Marshal rule and Aegis of Iron rule. The Marshal rule will almost only apply to one vehicle. A 6++ isn't much and I can't even think of any non-LoW transports that have a innate invulnerable save. Aegis of Armor is just useless 99% of the time.

Dreadwing: Rad/Stasis need to be a bit cheaper for squads and a lot cheaper for independent characters. Plasma incinerator should come with a suspensor web. Maybe change the transport restriction to allow jump infantry so destroyers can be brought that way.

Stormwing: Allow centurions to be added to any tactical or assault squad, not just compulsory. Allow the Lion to give orders. Lighten up the more tactical/assault squads restriction. Makes it almost impossible to make a list.

Ravenwing: The hit and run upgrade should be free. All the other "Marshal" rules are, why isn't this one?

Firewing: The automatic loss seems a bit extreme, maybe change it to 3VP instead?

Companions: Make the minimum unit size 3 so the terminators can actually fit in the land raider with their warlord. Terminator upgrade should also allow for phobos just like regular command squad.

Firewing Cabal: I'm not sure how to change them but I think it should be one or more of the following things: Artificer armor; allow up to 6 in a unit; make charge-blades either not get hot and just have rending, or keep the rule but have it give them ap2. Also they need assault grenades.

Interemptors: Rhino DT.

Excindio: I think either the base model or the weapon upgrades need to be a tad cheaper. They're a pretty risky pick for how much they cost without any transport.

Corswain: Does his blade count for Mastery of the blade?

Marduk: His Ancient of War rule is absolutely useless in the Dreadwing rite, which is, ya know, his rite.

Lion: Lion Sword needs a bump. Maybe +1 strength or instant death? An Absolute Focus is useless against everything except Horus and Russ. His pistol shouldn't be salvo. This is probably asking for too much but the fact that he doesn't interact with the Wings at all is kind of disappointing.

[Bung]

My current list of changes I'd like to see:

*Headhunters need a rework; they're just not as good as Seekers, when they really are supposed to be.
*Laerneans are decent, but are underwhelming compared to other options. I'd love to see them get a slight boost - maybe a second wound? For their supposed uses in background fluff, they're just not survivable enough.
*Angel's Tears, for as much as I love them, are too cheap for what they can do. There's no reason to *not* take them if you have the option.
*Breachers need a points reduction.
*Can we squadron our Sicarans yet? At least the original version? I wants to run more of them.

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten a game in for over six months which makes me sad, so I don't have any more general recommendations. But an FAQ anytime soon would be nice.

As with book 8 you can play the Punisher and Omega Tank Hunter variants in Squadrons of 1-2 tanks. But i think it would be to much for the Arcus as it is.

[Spagunk]

 

 

some other units' point cost should be incresed (looking at Sekhmet Terminators, Angel's Tears and Deathwing Companions specifically here).

What's wrong with angel's tears?

 

 

I wouldn't call Angel's Tears particularly wrong or outraging, to me they just feel slightly on the cheap side especially if you compare them to destroyers. 10 Erelims cost some 30-40 pts less than 10 barebones destroyers with jump packs while retaining superior firepower (+63% vs MEQs albeit shorter range) with serpentas and they also have different, probably more flexible wargear choices. Destroyers fans might get jealous I guess... maybe easing up on jump pack cost could solve the issue.

 

 

I mean they do have a much bigger range of stuff they can have but they get really expensive really fast. If anything I would say Destroyers need a buff rather than Tears need a nerf: Make them 100pts for 5 (so 125 w/ jump packs), allow all destroyers to have a pistol option (I.E. any destroyer may swap 1 pistol for hand flamer/plasma/whatever) and maybe access rotor cannons. IDK. 

Worth pointing out that destoyers do have one more base attacks than tears though (30 ccw attacks on the charge vs 40 ccw on Destoyers) which is always a price premium in HH. Those units that have the 2 base attacks are usually limited in double CCW options or have to pay higher prices in base costs/through gear. So in that way destoyers are better generalists and have their shooting as well as ccw vs. tears. I imagine designers thinking the volkite helped offset this when doing Angel's Tears but who knows what they were thinking. 

 

Destroyers are a really old unit and there has been such a shift in power levels since book 7. A full on rebalance in a new Red Book is about due anyway.