Reading the first two HH again?

[DarkChaplain]

IS was also teased in McNeill's Rules of Engagement as far back as Age of Darkness, book 16, many years before the arc even started for real. It was again picked up as an upcoming encounter between Guilliman and the Lion in.... The Lion, from The Primarchs, book 20.

 

Imperium Secundus was definitely in the planning for much longer than is apparent, and it's safe to say both the mismanagement at the time, the running off of authors, and the generally negative reception all played a part in it failing.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Since my first reading of Unremembered Empire, I've read and reread it, Age of Darkness and The Primarchs, and nothing there made Imperium Secundus any less contrived. National governments and national militaries have all sorts of contingency plans, some based on likely circumstances and some based on highly unlikely circumstances and everything in between. Hinting that a contingency plan like IS exists is a whole different thing from actually executing it. 

 

The core of my argument here is that IS as a major plot point in Unremembered Empire is weak because it is so very poorly justified in the story. Because it is so very poorly justified, it makes IS a contrivance and contrivance makes for bad story telling. Perhaps there were reasons that the HH writing team actually worked out, but we don't see that in the novel. If more information comes out that justifies IS, I'll be the first to say, "Okay, it looks like Imperium Secundus was a good idea after all." Unfortunately, justification should have been there in the first place, and since it isn't, Unremembered Empire is a bad read.

[Ingo Pech]

When I first read those words from Roboute Guilliman in "Rules of Engagement" - 

 

"When that time comes, you will be called traitors, cowards and faithless weaklings, but nothing could be further from the truth. I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium as we know it..."

 

- i was stoked and wondering if and how that will be continued in the wider story arc. And I still think, that the idea of an "Imperium Secundus" is great. Not exactly the historical development in the series but the concept and the idea behind it.

 

It portrays RG as the most practically minded, future-oriented and non-idealistic Primarch and it´s a perfect contrast to Rogal Dorn (whom I personally like better). 

 

While the latter is trying to uphold the old ideals, the Imperium as they all knew it with all it´s flaws and strengths, with the Imperial Truth and all those "good old times"-vibes, while he´s trying to fortify the Imperial Palace and the Sol-System and his biggest fear is that all, what he´s ever fought for is dead and gone (or perhaps was never really there) - the former builds a new empire. Not on the ashes of the old one but it´s still a new, a second one. He´s pragmatic and predictive and knows no fear to do things others wouldn´t even dare to think of. I´ve always loved the contrast between two of the most stalwart loyalist Primarchs and the Imperium Secundus is the embodiment of that contrariness.

 

And it foreshadows all that will come to pass after the Horus Heresy: the Codex Astartes-crisis, almost culminating in a second civil war - and the recent changes in the wake of the Dark Imperium/Indomitus Crusade/Primaris-story arc. 

[DarkChaplain]

Since my first reading of Unremembered Empire, I've read and reread it, Age of Darkness and The Primarchs, and nothing there made Imperium Secundus any less contrived. National governments and national militaries have all sorts of contingency plans, some based on likely circumstances and some based on highly unlikely circumstances and everything in between. Hinting that a contingency plan like IS exists is a whole different thing from actually executing it. 

 

The core of my argument here is that IS as a major plot point in Unremembered Empire is weak because it is so very poorly justified in the story. Because it is so very poorly justified, it makes IS a contrivance and contrivance makes for bad story telling. Perhaps there were reasons that the HH writing team actually worked out, but we don't see that in the novel. If more information comes out that justifies IS, I'll be the first to say, "Okay, it looks like Imperium Secundus was a good idea after all." Unfortunately, justification should have been there in the first place, and since it isn't, Unremembered Empire is a bad read.

 

You know, I'll absolutely agree with you on The Unremembered Empire being a dreadful book, and doing a very poor job at even touching the subject matter of IS. Heck, the declaration doesn't even happen til the final few pages, and it wastes a lot of time on Perpetuals and superhero battles with out of character Primarchs.

Remembering The Lion, El'Jonson was heading to Ultramar with a clear distaste for Guilliman's plotting, yet in TUE, he quickly turns into a kitten about it. Vulkan is a complete non-entity, Sanguinius is hardly even in it.... The "Unremembered Empire" itself is an afterthought in that book.

 

It's probably my most hated HH novel for a reason.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Good points all, DarkChaplain. Being a Abnett fan, I had high hopes for UE before it came out. The justification for IS had me scratching my head the most, but it was definitely just one of a long list of things I didn't like. You've mentioned most of the others. By far, Dan's weakest work in the series imo. As far as most hated HH novels go, it's probably somewhere in the long list I have

[DarkChaplain]

One day, I'll finish my weird Imperium Secundus essay I had drawn up years ago. One day.... All I've said here really is just regurgitated and updated thought-matter reaching back to that project. I put it on ice when Ruinstorm was announced, and now I might just as well wait out the Siege's finale and the potential fallout once Guilliman gets back in the mix.

 

Looking back at Horus Rising and what followed, I'm still miffed we never got to see the Interex-war that followed. I'd have thought we'd at least have it addressed in a short story or novella by now...

[Brother Lunkhead]

The Interex were very interesting, and that plot served well in showing the beginning of the undermining of Horus and his eventual downfall, but I suspect that if they actually got around to going back, the Interex War would have been a foot note during the Crusade or part of Horus' grudge list of civilizations to blot out during the civil war. Still, I'd like to see more of them too.

 

Another interesting point concerning the Interex subplot was that it gave us a good picture of Horus as diplomat and willingness to compromise. He wasn't just his father's executioner, but had ideas of his own about prosecuting the Crusade and dealing with different civilizations beyond simply submit or die.

[mc warhammer]

i'd like to see the interex war, less for the interex themselves but a deep dive into the damage it did to horus and his legion's psyche

[b1soul]

Yes, the Interex War would have been the perfect vehicle to flesh out Horus' character and values...and how the whole affair shook him to his core. It could've been a major reason why he fell, other than daddy went into the basement and he didn't tell me why.

 

Who knows...mayne a mini series on this in the future.

Edited January 9, 2021 by b1soul

[DarkChaplain]

i'd like to see the interex war, less for the interex themselves but a deep dive into the damage it did to horus and his legion's psyche

 

Exactly that. We only get a few minor echos in False Gods, before things go to hell. This is the perfect vehicle, and an already established one, to drive home Horus' differences in philosophy on the whole Great Crusade thing. You can use it to showcase his idealism while also showing that he's not necessarily following the xenophobic line of humanity - which would also make it easier for him to fall in with the "other" of the warp.

 

If you make him willing to coexist, instead of pushing humanity at the exclusion of all other civilizations, or even just having him honestly entertain the idea that the Emperor might be wrong about not acknowledging some systems' self-sufficiency and rejection of the Imperium - a theme that has been introduced in Horus Rising in the first place - you can grow a small seed of doubt in the Emperor into a major conflict within him that'd make him pliable for the Pantheon to convince in False Gods. As it stands, there's a timeskip between those two books that makes this internal conflict happen off-page, which obviously makes things feel more rushed than they might actually be if we look at the in-universe schedule.

 

I don't need more "Chaos Rocks!"-Horus. What I need is "Maybe things need to change"-Horus, who initially turned out of a sense of hurt and idealism both.

 

That is to say: There's an entire war with another advanced civilization to use as a vehicle to develop Horus and his growing resentment and disillusionment with the Imperium as-is. It's better used than forgotten.

Edited January 9, 2021 by DarkChaplain

[byrd9999]

Horus is still due a Primarchs series entry... :) 

[mc warhammer]

 

i'd like to see the interex war, less for the interex themselves but a deep dive into the damage it did to horus and his legion's psyche

 

Exactly that. We only get a few minor echos in False Gods, before things go to hell. This is the perfect vehicle, and an already established one, to drive home Horus' differences in philosophy on the whole Great Crusade thing. You can use it to showcase his idealism while also showing that he's not necessarily following the xenophobic line of humanity - which would also make it easier for him to fall in with the "other" of the warp.

 

If you make him willing to coexist, instead of pushing humanity at the exclusion of all other civilizations, or even just having him honestly entertain the idea that the Emperor might be wrong about not acknowledging some systems' self-sufficiency and rejection of the Imperium - a theme that has been introduced in Horus Rising in the first place - you can grow a small seed of doubt in the Emperor into a major conflict within him that'd make him pliable for the Pantheon to convince in False Gods. As it stands, there's a timeskip between those two books that makes this internal conflict happen off-page, which obviously makes things feel more rushed than they might actually be if we look at the in-universe schedule.

 

I don't need more "Chaos Rocks!"-Horus. What I need is "Maybe things need to change"-Horus, who initially turned out of a sense of hurt and idealism both.

 

That is to say: There's an entire war with another advanced civilization to use as a vehicle to develop Horus and his growing resentment and disillusionment with the Imperium as-is. It's better used than forgotten.

 

yeah, building on that, it would be nice to have a primarch fall to chaos in an almost completely sympathetic fashion. where it really, truly is following the path of good intentions to hell.

 

even magnus (arguably the most sympathetic fall) has straight up hubris and screwing with forces dad told him not to muddying the waters.  there's a lot of "well, you knew better" mixed in there.

 

but to have a primarch who didn't grab an enchanted sword/slaughter their home planet/ choose to follow chaos 'cos it's the "truth"...one who wanted to negotiate peace and alliances...to have chaos be that subtle in its corruption is something i'd like to read. have horus make the best and wisest choices and still be damned.

 

byrd999, i'm crossing my fingers for his primarch entry too.

[byrd9999]

I totally agree, McWarhammer.

 

I am really drawn to the Greek Tragedy angle of the fall to Chaos. The "if only"s, the "what if"s, that Dan Abnett captured perfectly in Horus Rising.

 

I don't like the predestined one-way descent into evil that most authors have adopted.

 

The problem is that it's much more difficult for an author to create a sympathetic fall, a subtle and nuanced debate about doing wrong for the right reasons, and ultimately being corrupted. The problems come not from the characters, but the authors writing the characters.

 

Without wishing to be rude, I think this is probably beyond most BL authors, at least as the situation currently stands. Some BL writers are authors with a real grasp of the craft of writing (Abnett, Justin D Hill, Peter Fehervari), whereas others are writing about good toy soldiers shooting bad toy soldiers. A situation not helped by BL wanting to keep authors on a treadmill pumping out content. The narrative complexity of BL "product" could be improved by giving authors more time to craft rich and compelling stories, rather than focusing on X amount of words per day (see twitter posts of authors like Guy Haley and David Guymer). This isn't a knock on these authors (I'm a big fan of Guy Haley!), but does reveal a driving force behind their work.

In light of this, I am all in favour of BL expanding its stable of authors, both to include new talented authors, and to reduce the pressure on authors to churn out X number of books per year to fill the BL release schedule.

[DukeLeto69]

To be fair some of that wordcount pressure is down to the need to earn a living as a writer of niche fiction within a niche genre.

 

Clearly there are exceptions but these guys are writing tie-in fiction with a pretty defined and restricted audience. I doubt many actually ever receive much by way of royalty payments and instead need to live off their advances.

 

So the more projects (novels, shorts, audios) they can churn out the better (for them).

 

Obviously there are exceptions like Abnett and ADB who most certainly earn out their advances and receive royalties (and ironically as bigger sellers will also receive a bigger advance and likely have a higher royalty rate).

 

Edit to add:

 

Noticed Guy Haley saying he intends to reduce his wordcount this year. I reckon (though clearly don’t know) that a number of factors are influencing that:

 

1) His sales are high enough he is receiving royalties

2) His sales are high enough he has negotiated a higher royalty rate

3) His sales are high enough he has negotiated a bigger advance

4) His “lead author/setting design” role on the Dawn of Fire series comes with some financial rewards

 

All about financial viability.

Edited January 10, 2021 by DukeLeto69

[DarkChaplain]

The x words per day thing is also important to keep up a routine and actually get work done. Even if by the end, those words get scrapped in edits, the treadmill needs to be kept active, otherwise you run the risk of drifting from your work and the craft, and never putting a finished book out there.

 

On top of that, the royalty topic is a tricky one with BL in particular, due to really low print runs compared to major releases from big publishing houses. The short availability window for 40k in particular is antithetical to royalties - massive ebook sales are pretty much the only way to earn enough royalties to pass the advance-threshold and actually get to pocket them as the author.

 

Josh Reynolds has been pretty open about some of the realities of writing tie-in fiction, and for BL in particular. Writing on-schedule, making sure not to delay and bump off other books, is vital if you don't have a day job to support yourself otherwise. If you can't get a book written on time, it might delay your next project, meaning the next advance to pay your bills with will be late. It's much more stressful than the regular person realizes.

[Brother Lunkhead]

While speculating on what goes on in the backroom at BL and it's effect on quantity, quality, etc. of BL works, it's not really what this thread is about. Let's get back to the HH works themselves. New appreciations and revelations from HH re-reads anyone?

[R_F_D]

While speculating on what goes on in the backroom at BL and it's effect on quantity, quality, etc. of BL works, it's not really what this thread is about. Let's get back to the HH works themselves. New appreciations and revelations from HH re-reads anyone?

 

Really really struggled with Descent of Angels this month.  I've read it a couple of times before and not picked up on things (both in terms of the plot and writing style) and when I did it was all I could see and it bugged me.  I was also actively pushing "this doesn't further the HH narrative" out of my mind, which is something I haven't really experienced before.  

 

Was DA collector (2nd/3rd Ed.) before I stopped and I remember being happy that the DAs got a look in to the HH, even though I knew from the lore it would be limited.  Remember thinking DoA was okay and didn't recall encountering my current gripes.  To put in some additional context, I read the 1st 5 books over the summer in the same sort of time it took me to read DoA, and I've read those the same number of times (give or take).

 

Seen a couple of people posting positively on it so would be interested on hearing their takes.

 

Currently reading Legion and enjoying it as much as I have done previously (although as an Abnett fan-boy that's not hard) will probably carry on to read Battle for the Abyss before taking a break.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I reread DoA a couple of years ago, and it just reaffirmed my initial impression, that it had little to do with moving the HH story along and that BL might be slipping off course. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it as an origin story, but with the exception of a few small sections of the novel, it had almost nothing to do with the HH.

 

On the bright side, the second read didn't come with the sinking sense of disappointment I had with the first readthrough. I still remember the anticipation I had when I saw the cover art and title before the book was released. It was a real letdown for me.... a good story, but no HH It was unfortunately, very telling of things to come.