List bulding issues for our crusade campaign

[Kythnos]

Fellow warsmiths,

 

I need your council. I am two games into our local crusade campaign with my Iron Warriors and I already have a suspicion that my roster includes too many units that I usually do not use and wanted to try out for exatly this reason. I feel that the units do not work well enough together to create some working synergies. Thus, while I can still compete with the less seasoned players in our campaign, I am at a loss at how to beat our Sororitas player who is equally experiences as I am. His whole army works like clockwork and mine seems to fall apart, no matter what I do, barring a lot of small factors falling in my favour (I hate his 6++ saves, that's for sure!).

 

So I wanted to get your feedback on my roster and the idea behind my army. And if my idea can be salvaged with changing a few units here and there. So, without further ado, here's my current campaign roster:

 

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [6 PL, 130pts]: Combi-melta, Insidium, Mark of Khorne, Thunder hammer

Sorcerer [5 PL, 90pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warlord, Warp Lord, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [6 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 17x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 17x Autogun
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 115pts]: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne
. Aspiring Champion: Plasma pistol, Power fist
. 3x Marine w/ chainsword: 3x Astartes chainsword, 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ heavy or special weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 105pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Plasma pistol, Power maul
. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ heavy or special weapon: Missile launcher

+ Elites +

Helbrute [6 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer
. Power scourge

Mutilators [5 PL, 105pts]: Mark of Nurgle
. 3x Mutilator: 3x Fleshmetal weapons

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [3 PL, 69pts]: No Chaos Mark (already leveled up to Bloodied)
. 3x Chaos Spawn: 3x Hideous mutations

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [5 PL, 105pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Obliterator

Obliterators [5 PL, 105pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Obliterator

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 83pts]: Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, No Chaos Mark

++ Total: [60 PL] ++

 

How much of a mess is this? I had one 25 PL game and one with 35 PL. In both, I felt that it was difficult to put together a list of units that worked well together.

The idea behind my roster and for its development during the campaign was an emphasis on the cult of destruction and demon engine elements without resorting to a mostly static gunline playstyle that I am too accustomed to by now. This also fits well with the Iron Warriors stratagems and warlord traits. I guess the problem starts at the HQ section, where I have included two characters for reasons stemming from my warband's background, who do not really support the idea of this roster too well. 

 

So what would you suggest to give this army some synergy and a better fighting chance? I would love to hear your ideas. My next game is on Tuesday on vassal and I can still change a few things around until then.

 

One last thing: while we have to play our games online for the time being, I am making sure to only include models that I own in my roster. If physical games are possible again in spring, I would like to be prepared ;-)

Edited December 18, 2020 by Kythnos

[MegaVolt87]

Is this your entire collection ? Also since it's vassal, I wouldn't restrict yourself to what you own. Mutilators, spawns and the hellbrute I would drop, for well anything else. Icons are a waste on small msu, grab a combi plas on the ML unit.

[Kythnos]

Is this your entire collection ? Also since it's vassal, I wouldn't restrict yourself to what you own. Mutilators, spawns and the hellbrute I would drop, for well anything else. Icons are a waste on small msu, grab a combi plas on the ML unit.

Thank you for your suggestions.

This is not my entire collection. I have about 7000 points of Iron Warriors at home, so apart from cult units, I should be able to field any of suggestion, including some Forgeworld choices.

But I will follow wysiwyg with the units I field, as we play with power levels and the system is too easily abused if one does not follow that restriction. At least I get the icons for free this way ;-)

 

Regarding mutilators, helbrutes and spawn: I have read that the first two are supposed to be quite alright in 9th several times. Mutilators were also mentioned in the Goonhammer article in IW in 9th as decent units.

And since my spawn have already leveled up once and are now fairly cheap and fast with +1" move, advance and charge, I think they work as a distraction unit that can also capture objectives quickly.

What would you sub in for these units and why?

[MegaVolt87]

I think hellbrute with just fist, multi melta and heavy flamer is a good combo for 9th myself if you are set on it. The mutilators, spawn and the dropped points from icons, napkin math 194 points, that could be a pread, a unit of termi's with combi's, bikes with specials etc. Far more effective IW picks for us than spawns, mutilators. If you want good filler trash as you go up in points, more cultists or a DG patrol detachment to add nurglings, pox walkers, maybe something a bit more punchy with some DG termi's in the separate detachment etc. Dont burden yourself needlessly with spawns and mutilators, they just aren't as good for us. 

[Kaiju Soze]

The cost of Icons is irrelevant to a Crusade list, since it uses PL rather than points. And since adding them in later costs Requisition Points, it's probably better to add them at the start even if they don't provide immediate benefits, if you plan to include them at all.

[MegaVolt87]

The cost of Icons is irrelevant to a Crusade list, since it uses PL rather than points. And since adding them in later costs Requisition Points, it's probably better to add them at the start even if they don't provide immediate benefits, if you plan to include them at all.

Since points and power level were listed, I thought points were used to generate the inital list to get the non standard 60 power to start, then power would be used onwards. You can start with points, convert to power then keep going with power, another way to do it.

Edited December 22, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Kythnos]

 

The cost of Icons is irrelevant to a Crusade list, since it uses PL rather than points. And since adding them in later costs Requisition Points, it's probably better to add them at the start even if they don't provide immediate benefits, if you plan to include them at all.

Since points and power level were listed, I thought points were used to generate the inital list to get the non standard 60 power to start, then power would be used onwards. You can start with points, convert to power then keep going with power, another way to do it.

 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, my apologies. We use only power levels for the campaign - as such I do not need to concern myself with spending points for suboptimal equipment. If my models have that stuff, I can just put it into my lists. The 60 PL show an investment of requisition to grow my campaign roster beyond the starting size.

[Kythnos]

So to summarize the ideas so far:

- drop mutilators and/or spawn

- add in terminators or predator or bikes

- change helbrute loadout

 

Is this about right? The third point can be arranged easily. I can also see myself dropping the mutilators - but not the Spawn, since they are the only unit with a level Up, currently. That would give me 5 PL to work with. Any ideas for that?

[MegaVolt87]

Yeah basically that. IW's have a tight toolbox that works very well which is good and bad. Mutilators and spawns just lack effective synergy for us compared to the alternatives I already suggested.

[Kythnos]

I see. Then let's see where I can take this:

- Helbrute: I have one with Reaper and power fist/heavy flamer, one with twin las and missile launcher, one with plasma cannon and scourge and the one that is already in the list. Which one would you choose, considering these options? I also have a Contemptor with your choice of butcher cannon, heavy bolter and claw as a close alternative.

- I can ditch the Mutilators, sure. But the Spawn I want to keep and try a few more things with them.

- This gives me 5PL which is not a lot to work with. Assuming one more unit needs to go (and not the Spawn), which one would you choose?

[MasterDeath]

The reason why mutilators are OK in 9th are some secondary obj. (Linebreaker) As crusade missions just use these for XP, mutilators are just as Bad as in 8th. I would advise one bigger obliterators Squad to make cacophony more effective. Maybe Multimeter + scourge for the brute? I use the spawns as a filler, so i delete them every Game and re-recruting to fill Up my Points. Edited December 29, 2020 by MasterDeath

[Kythnos]

The reason why mutilators are OK in 9th are some secondary obj. (Linebreaker) As crusade missions just use these for XP, mutilators are just as Bad as in 8th. I would advise one bigger obliterators Squad to make cacophony more effective. Maybe Multimeter + scourge for the brute? I use the spawns as a filler, so i delete them every Game and re-recruting to fill Up my Points.

 

Okay, that makes a lot of sense regarding the mutilators. They are definitely off the roster. Regarding the obliterators, I certainly agree with you. My only issue is that we are still playing mostly 25-35PL games, in which a unit of two obliterators feels very dominant and does not allow for much of a list to be built around it. For example, having two obliterators, a HQ and a troops unit will be at least 18 PL, 21 if want a bigger unit of cultists to screen the obliterators via the 'cannon fodder' stratagem.

[Kythnos]

Maybe the following might be a solution:

- drop mutilators and one unit of CSM (choppy or shooty?) => 9 PL freed up

- add 5 terminators with combi plasma => 8 PL used

- add 1 spawn as a PL filler => 1 PL used

- change the helbute's loadout

 

Does this seem like a good plan?

[MasterDeath]

I would say thats Solid. I would drop shooty csm as chainswords are quiet good nö.