Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Deathwatch Terminators...how did I miss this?


  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#1
Qui-Gon

Qui-Gon

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 326 posts

I do not know how I missed this and how GW missed this...

 

Long and the short of it: Deathwatch Terminator's Crux Terminatus rule extends to all members in a Proteus Kill Team.

 

Ace rules writing GW. You "fix" outriders and veteran bikers but miss a very obvious rules error...while also not addressing a host of other issues.



#2
techsoldaten

techsoldaten

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 648 posts
  • Location:Eye of Terror

I do not know how I missed this and how GW missed this...

 

Long and the short of it: Deathwatch Terminator's Crux Terminatus rule extends to all members in a Proteus Kill Team.

 

Ace rules writing GW. You "fix" outriders and veteran bikers but miss a very obvious rules error...while also not addressing a host of other issues.

Dunno if it was an error or a way to keep Oldmarines relevant.

 

For right now, it means Kill Teams that include a Terminator get a 5++.



#3
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts
Interesting
The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#4
ValourousHeart

ValourousHeart

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,054 posts
  • Location:DFW, Texas
  • Faction: Order of the Gossamer Shroud

I'm pretty sure you have read that wrong.

 

Abilities (pg 51)

 

All KILL TEAM units have the Mixed Unit Ability.

 

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.

 

 

Underlined portion is my emphasis.

 

The first sentence allows a model in a KILL TEAM to retain the native abilities of that model, but it does not grant those abilities to other members of the KILL TEAM.  So for the Crux Terminatus ability all TDA models in the unit get the 5++, because it is native to the model.

 

It DOES NOT mean that you can fail the 5++ and then apply that wound to any model in the squad that you wish.


  • Iron Lord likes this

#5
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,544 posts

I'm pretty sure you have read that wrong.

Abilities (pg 51)

All KILL TEAM units have the Mixed Unit Ability.

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet. If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.


Underlined portion is my emphasis.

The first sentence allows a model in a KILL TEAM to retain the native abilities of that model, but it does not grant those abilities to other members of the KILL TEAM. So for the Crux Terminatus ability all TDA models in the unit get the 5++, because it is native to the model.

It DOES NOT mean that you can fail the 5++ and then apply that wound to any model in the squad that you wish.

You've added a condition that isn't present in the ability. You said all TDA models gain that ability, but that isn't what the rule says. It's the same interaction that allows an Infiltrator with a comms array or helix gauntlet to bestow those abilities to their entire squad, including non-Infiltrator models. It's also how they provide the omni-scrambler in mixed units.

Saying the rule "Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save" doesn't apply to the whole unit that the model is part of, KT or otherwise, based on some distinction that isn't present in the rules text, is a little bit of a stretch. It isn't consistent with how the rules are already interpreted for other examples.

#6
Qui-Gon

Qui-Gon

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 326 posts

I'm pretty sure you have read that wrong.

 

Abilities (pg 51)

 

All KILL TEAM units have the Mixed Unit Ability.

 

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.

 

 

Underlined portion is my emphasis.

 

The first sentence allows a model in a KILL TEAM to retain the native abilities of that model, but it does not grant those abilities to other members of the KILL TEAM.  So for the Crux Terminatus ability all TDA models in the unit get the 5++, because it is native to the model.

 

It DOES NOT mean that you can fail the 5++ and then apply that wound to any model in the squad that you wish.

 

A Kill Team that includes a Terminator model has the following rule on that Terminator model as per the Kill Team rules:

"Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save."

Every model therefore in that unit has a 5+ invulnerable save until the Terminator model is destroyed and the unit no longer has a model with that rule.

 

If the rule read "Models with this rule have a 5+ invulnerable save" it would indeed not be shared, but that is not the case.


  • Lemondish likes this

#7
BrainFireBob

BrainFireBob

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 865 posts
And the "a model" restriction is more specific.

This is looking for easter eggs.

#8
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts
I'm pretty sure this was not intended. It does restrict granting abilities to other members that do not natively have them on their own datasheets. But the rules of that one Model's ability is written to affect everyone in his unit and lists no exceptions.
The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#9
Iron Lord

Iron Lord

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,262 posts

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.So, A TDA model retains its Invulnerable save, but that doesn't mean other models gain them.     

 

IMO, it works as follows - roll dice, see how many wounds are inflicted - then the question becomes "Do I wish to make Invul saves?"  

 

If I do, I must allocate the wounds to the Terminators, before making save rolls.  

Fail a save, and the terminators are wounded - but you can't allocate wounds to non-Terminators - because non-Terminators don't have invulnerable saves in the first place.    

 

A similar principle would apply if you're using Strategems to grant a SM Sergeant Artificer Armour - normally a sergeant can't have it, but with the right stratagems, they can. And the unit is now a Mixed unit, when it comes to saves. But only models with saves, may use saves.


Edited by Iron Lord, 21 December 2020 - 06:31 AM.


#10
Qui-Gon

Qui-Gon

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 326 posts

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.

 

 

So, A TDA model retains its Invulnerable save, but that doesn't mean other models gain them.

 

 

 

IMO, it works as follows - roll dice, see how many wounds are inflicted - then the question becomes "Do I wish to make Invul saves?"

 

 

If I do, I must allocate the wounds to the Terminators, before making save rolls.

 

Fail a save, and the terminators are wounded - but you can't allocate wounds to non-Terminators - because non-Terminators don't have invulnerable saves in the first place.

 

 

 

 

A similar principle would apply if you're using Strategems to grant a SM Sergeant Artificer Armour - normally a sergeant can't have it, but with the right stratagems, they can. And the unit is now a Mixed unit, when it comes to saves. But only models with saves, may use saves.

 

 

Small thing, you might want to correct your formatting. Its quite horrid.

 

Again, you are trying to write more rules than are there. The Crux Terminatus rule again states "Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save." It does not state "This model has a 5+ invulnerable save."


  • quasistellar likes this

#11
Iron Lord

Iron Lord

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,262 posts

 

 

Small thing, you might want to correct your formatting. Its quite horrid.

 

That's what happens sometimes with copy-pasting.



#12
ValourousHeart

ValourousHeart

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,054 posts
  • Location:DFW, Texas
  • Faction: Order of the Gossamer Shroud

I'm pretty sure this was not intended. It does restrict granting abilities to other members that do not natively have them on their own datasheets. But the rules of that one Model's ability is written to affect everyone in his unit and lists no exceptions.

But in the original unit all members of the squad are TDA models.  That is why you can't ignore the Mixed Unit Ability.

 

 

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.So, A TDA model retains its Invulnerable save, but that doesn't mean other models gain them.     

 

IMO, it works as follows - roll dice, see how many wounds are inflicted - then the question becomes "Do I wish to make Invul saves?"  

 

If I do, I must allocate the wounds to the Terminators, before making save rolls.  

Fail a save, and the terminators are wounded - but you can't allocate wounds to non-Terminators - because non-Terminators don't have invulnerable saves in the first place.    

 

A similar principle would apply if you're using Strategems to grant a SM Sergeant Artificer Armour - normally a sergeant can't have it, but with the right stratagems, they can. And the unit is now a Mixed unit, when it comes to saves. But only models with saves, may use saves.

 

That is exactly how I'm reading it.  It makes these Kill Team models function like wargear upgrades.

 

 

Again, you are trying to write more rules than are there. The Crux Terminatus rule again states "Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save." It does not state "This model has a 5+ invulnerable save."

 

You still have to apply the Mixed Unit Ability rule, which states that it is the model that gets Crux Terminatus, not the kill team.

 

Otherwise you make the argument that that Proteus Kill Team gets Teleport Strike because the TDA model has it, which puts it in the abilities section of the Data Card, therefore giving it to every member of the Proteus Kill Team and completely negating the second part of the Mixed Unit Ability rule.

 

You should also consider Kill Team Cassius, which is a named unit version of Proteus Kill Team.

If this works the way you assume, then why is named version significantly worse than the generic version using the same models.

 

You could also consider other imperial armies that allow TDA models in PA units, not a single one of them grants the 5++ to the entire unit, only the TDA model gets it.

 

So ask yourself why you have picked this interpretation.

You need to unpack your bias on this.


  • Iron Lord likes this

#13
ThePenitentOne

ThePenitentOne

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 798 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Faction: Sisters of Battle

 

I'm pretty sure this was not intended. It does restrict granting abilities to other members that do not natively have them on their own datasheets. But the rules of that one Model's ability is written to affect everyone in his unit and lists no exceptions.

But in the original unit all members of the squad are TDA models.  That is why you can't ignore the Mixed Unit Ability.

 

 

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.So, A TDA model retains its Invulnerable save, but that doesn't mean other models gain them.     

 

IMO, it works as follows - roll dice, see how many wounds are inflicted - then the question becomes "Do I wish to make Invul saves?"  

 

If I do, I must allocate the wounds to the Terminators, before making save rolls.  

Fail a save, and the terminators are wounded - but you can't allocate wounds to non-Terminators - because non-Terminators don't have invulnerable saves in the first place.    

 

A similar principle would apply if you're using Strategems to grant a SM Sergeant Artificer Armour - normally a sergeant can't have it, but with the right stratagems, they can. And the unit is now a Mixed unit, when it comes to saves. But only models with saves, may use saves.

 

That is exactly how I'm reading it.  It makes these Kill Team models function like wargear upgrades.

 

 

Again, you are trying to write more rules than are there. The Crux Terminatus rule again states "Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save." It does not state "This model has a 5+ invulnerable save."

 

You still have to apply the Mixed Unit Ability rule, which states that it is the model that gets Crux Terminatus, not the kill team.

 

Otherwise you make the argument that that Proteus Kill Team gets Teleport Strike because the TDA model has it, which puts it in the abilities section of the Data Card, therefore giving it to every member of the Proteus Kill Team and completely negating the second part of the Mixed Unit Ability rule.

 

You should also consider Kill Team Cassius, which is a named unit version of Proteus Kill Team.

If this works the way you assume, then why is named version significantly worse than the generic version using the same models.

 

You could also consider other imperial armies that allow TDA models in PA units, not a single one of them grants the 5++ to the entire unit, only the TDA model gets it.

 

So ask yourself why you have picked this interpretation.

You need to unpack your bias on this.

 

 Agree whole heartedly VH. 

 

Others are correct to point out semantics and language, and I can see how they can argue what they are arguing.

 

But as you say, KT Cassius proves it. 

 

Sometimes, RAI is hard to figure out; I personally don't feel like this is one of those times. 

 

A point I've made regarding the issue on Dakka, is that it's almost moot anyway- combat squading every KT in your army with a 5/5 split is just so damn advantageous that I'm not really sure why anyone would sacrifice that awesomeness by fielding 5 vets and a single termie; I'd much rather have the full combat squad of deepstriking termies and let the vets do their own thing. A 5+ invul for the most basic 5 dudes in your army seems like a bargain because it's a shady RAW loophole, but the opportunity cost is not worth it. The only reason I would ever do this is if I didn't have enough PL/ points to go all the way.


  • Iron Lord likes this

#14
quasistellar

quasistellar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 367 posts

 

I'm pretty sure this was not intended. It does restrict granting abilities to other members that do not natively have them on their own datasheets. But the rules of that one Model's ability is written to affect everyone in his unit and lists no exceptions.

But in the original unit all members of the squad are TDA models.  That is why you can't ignore the Mixed Unit Ability.

 

 

A model in a KILL TEAM unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a KILL TEAM unit has an ability on their datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their KILL TEAM unit has that ability.So, A TDA model retains its Invulnerable save, but that doesn't mean other models gain them.     

 

IMO, it works as follows - roll dice, see how many wounds are inflicted - then the question becomes "Do I wish to make Invul saves?"  

 

If I do, I must allocate the wounds to the Terminators, before making save rolls.  

Fail a save, and the terminators are wounded - but you can't allocate wounds to non-Terminators - because non-Terminators don't have invulnerable saves in the first place.    

 

A similar principle would apply if you're using Strategems to grant a SM Sergeant Artificer Armour - normally a sergeant can't have it, but with the right stratagems, they can. And the unit is now a Mixed unit, when it comes to saves. But only models with saves, may use saves.

 

That is exactly how I'm reading it.  It makes these Kill Team models function like wargear upgrades.

 

 

Again, you are trying to write more rules than are there. The Crux Terminatus rule again states "Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save." It does not state "This model has a 5+ invulnerable save."

 

You still have to apply the Mixed Unit Ability rule, which states that it is the model that gets Crux Terminatus, not the kill team.

 

Otherwise you make the argument that that Proteus Kill Team gets Teleport Strike because the TDA model has it, which puts it in the abilities section of the Data Card, therefore giving it to every member of the Proteus Kill Team and completely negating the second part of the Mixed Unit Ability rule.

 

You should also consider Kill Team Cassius, which is a named unit version of Proteus Kill Team.

If this works the way you assume, then why is named version significantly worse than the generic version using the same models.

 

You could also consider other imperial armies that allow TDA models in PA units, not a single one of them grants the 5++ to the entire unit, only the TDA model gets it.

 

So ask yourself why you have picked this interpretation.

You need to unpack your bias on this.

 

i hate to say it but as written it actually leaves absolutely zero room for interpretation. As written, every model in a proteus kill team with a Deathwatch terminator has a 5++

 

It is 100% written this way. There is no other way to read it. Your example of teleport strike is not correct because it says every model in the unit must have the ability. The Crux Terminatus ability as written in the DW supplement simply states (and I am transcribing directly): “Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save.”

 

RAW, it’s not even debatable. I’m looking directly at the rules as I type this. It’s not mental gymnastics. It’s written in black and white.

 

RAI on the other hand , I would agree that they simply missed this and need to errata it.


  • Daynga-Zone likes this

#15
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts
Synopsis of this subject---
GW most likely made a huge mistake.
RAW of the ability owned by a single model grants all models the 5+ Invulnerable. Which would cease to exist if he dies. So you can apply the failed saves to anyone using the 5+.

This RAW goes against base rules precedence and how terminators from other factions are played.

This one of those situations where, like it or not, should still follow RAW...maybe not in PUGs or with friends but in the competitive format.

There are many situations where the rules fall into the spectrum of OBVIOUS MISTAKE to IT MAKES SENSE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT....but unless a TO wants to make an arbitrary decision before the event starts RAW will and should be what is followed

Edited by Debauchery101, 22 December 2020 - 12:40 AM.

  • Qui-Gon likes this
The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#16
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts
Deathwatch players should abuse this rule to fullest potential At tournaments because that's how it's going to get fixed the quickest
  • Master Sheol likes this
The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#17
ThePenitentOne

ThePenitentOne

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 798 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Faction: Sisters of Battle

Deathwatch players should abuse this rule to fullest potential At tournaments because that's how it's going to get fixed the quickest

 

I think it's actually hard to abuse. I'd rather have the equivalent PL / Points in 5/5 split vets and Termies for the sake of deepstike than a bunch of footslogging vets with 5+ Invuls any day of the week. The only reason I'd ever do this is to burn left over PL/ Points when I couldn't afford to go all the way.

 

A 5++ for footslogging old marines is not worth the opportunity cost of Deepstriking terminators with obsec, especially if you land a jump Chaplain with the Warlord trait which will make them count double once they've claimed their objective. Don't get me wrong- I love my Proteus vets- their wargear options cannot be matched by any other unit in the game. Still not worth it, IMHO.



#18
Lemondish

Lemondish

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,544 posts

"Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save". That's all it says. When you add that model to a Proteus Kill Team, it doesn't morph to say "TDA models in this unit". It doesn't all of a sudden morph to "only TDA models". It doesn't even morph to "Only this model". It still says "Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save". Let's engage in a little thought exercise.

Is a Deathwatch Veteran in a Proteus Kill a model in that unit?

Then it receives a 5+ invulnerable save if a Deathwatch Terminator is added to the unit. Crux Terminatus says so. There are no other limitations. No other requirements that need to be met. There are no rules that state so, so we can't really go around applying them willy nilly because our knickers are in a twist and we think this is a mistake.

Is this good? Yes, undoubtedly so. Is this intentional? Almost certainly not. Is this how the rules should be applied today until otherwise adjusted? Absolutely yes.

Someone mentioned this goes against base rules precedence. That is an absurd statement of the highest order. There is no precedence. No other rule for this model is as loosely written. Interpreting it any other way requires you to go against Deathwatch Mixed Unit rules. To state that the ability only applies to the model bringing it would break the interactions we all know are intended with Omni-scramblers, helix gauntlets, comms arrays, etc. What's worse? Breaking a whole slew of rules to stay consistent with wording from another army's book, or to accept this one rule as written? 


  • quasistellar and Daynga-Zone like this

#19
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts

Someone mentioned this goes against base rules precedence. That is an absurd statement of the highest order. There is no precedence. No other rule for this model is as loosely written. Interpreting it any other way requires you to go against Deathwatch Mixed Unit rules. To state that the ability only applies to the model bringing it would break the interactions we all know are intended with Omni-scramblers, helix gauntlets, comms arrays, etc. What's worse? Breaking a whole slew of rules to stay consistent with wording from another army's book, or to accept this one rule as written?


My use of the word Precedent is 100% adequate to this topic. There has never been a rule for a Terminator, who has an Invulnerable save to lend that to others in the unit hes with. Also more specifically to kill teams, they've only ever added Fearless and use of teleport homers. I even mentioned Terminators.

Thats textbook use of the word PRECEDENCE. I think your understanding of CONTEXT is absurd to the highest order.🤣🤣🤣 also there have been rules for models and characters who grant Invulnerable saves to the unit they join. Which have been worded as directly as the example we are talking about.

Anyways I know we agree on the situation but I'm not going to let you grammar-nazi what I said that you basically said after me.

The Emperor Protects
The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#20
ValourousHeart

ValourousHeart

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,054 posts
  • Location:DFW, Texas
  • Faction: Order of the Gossamer Shroud

i hate to say it but as written it actually leaves absolutely zero room for interpretation. As written, every model in a proteus kill team with a Deathwatch terminator has a 5++

 

It is 100% written this way. There is no other way to read it. Your example of teleport strike is not correct because it says every model in the unit must have the ability. The Crux Terminatus ability as written in the DW supplement simply states (and I am transcribing directly): “Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save.”

 

RAW, it’s not even debatable. I’m looking directly at the rules as I type this. It’s not mental gymnastics. It’s written in black and white.

 

RAI on the other hand , I would agree that they simply missed this and need to errata it.

 

 

You still have to apply the Mixed Unit Ability.  You can't just pick and chose which rules you wish apply to your army.  You have to use them all.

 

Sometimes, RAI is hard to figure out; I personally don't feel like this is one of those times. 

 

You are correct, RAI isn't hard to figure out on this one, and even Debauchery101 agrees with you right here.

 

Deathwatch players should abuse this rule to fullest potential At tournaments because that's how it's going to get fixed the quickest

 

If Debauchery101 thought that this was intended they wouldn't be recommending abusing a gross misreading of the rules to get it fixed.

 

This is one of those rules questions that is so painfully obvious, that even the people that are claiming that this is the correct way to play this rule are expressing remorse for even suggesting such a blatant  misinterpretation of the rules.



#21
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts


Deathwatch players should abuse this rule to fullest potential At tournaments because that's how it's going to get fixed the quickest

I think it's actually hard to abuse. I'd rather have the equivalent PL / Points in 5/5 split vets and Termies for the sake of deepstike than a bunch of footslogging vets with 5+ Invuls any day of the week. The only reason I'd ever do this is to burn left over PL/ Points when I couldn't afford to go all the way.

A 5++ for footslogging old marines is not worth the opportunity cost of Deepstriking terminators with obsec, especially if you land a jump Chaplain with the Warlord trait which will make them count double once they've claimed their objective. Don't get me wrong- I love my Proteus vets- their wargear options cannot be matched by any other unit in the game. Still not worth it, IMHO.
I agree that it likely would not end up being something over the top powerful. But there is some use for it that could prove effective.
I have thought about spamming these, with new points cost its around 290pts no spec for
Sgt-bolter and power sword
3x stalker vets
2x bolter/shield vets
3x hvy bolter or frag vets
1x fist/plasma terminator

Here's a list i was thinking of using this week with the modified points. Has points leftover for a KT specialism

Indomitus Captain
Watch Master
Codicier Natorian

Primaris Chief Apothecary

10x Vanguard vets-
1x hvy hammer sgt
1x hvy hammer vet
4x shield/chainsword
4x claw/inferno pistol

3- Proteus Kill teams-
1x Sgt p-sword/bolter
3x stalker bolter vets
3x hvy bolters vets
2x shield/bolter vets
1x fist/plasma terminator
1x homer

1x Proteus kill team-
1x fist/bolter sgt
3× bolter/chainsword vets
2x shield/chainsword vanguard vets
3x frag cannon vets
1x plasma/fist terminator
1x homer


1x Eradicators Squad
2x melta rifles
1x multi-melta

I figure i will play this as a counter attack army. Theres a lot of durable redundancy with this. Characters not included this has 12 storm shields and 38 with 5+

EDIT: I amended the list with changes to the frag cannon team swapping the 2 shield vets for shield vanguard vets so they gain the melta bombs rule

I also forgot the inferno pistols that I had equipped on some of the vanguard vets

Edited by Debauchery101, 22 December 2020 - 05:14 PM.

The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#22
quasistellar

quasistellar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 367 posts

 

i hate to say it but as written it actually leaves absolutely zero room for interpretation. As written, every model in a proteus kill team with a Deathwatch terminator has a 5++

 

It is 100% written this way. There is no other way to read it. Your example of teleport strike is not correct because it says every model in the unit must have the ability. The Crux Terminatus ability as written in the DW supplement simply states (and I am transcribing directly): “Every model in this unit has a 5+ invulnerable save.”

 

RAW, it’s not even debatable. I’m looking directly at the rules as I type this. It’s not mental gymnastics. It’s written in black and white.

 

RAI on the other hand , I would agree that they simply missed this and need to errata it.

 

 

You still have to apply the Mixed Unit Ability.  You can't just pick and chose which rules you wish apply to your army.  You have to use them all.

 

I am using the mixed unit ability. It does not negate Crux Terminatus.

 

I think you are not correctly comprehending the mixed unit ability. 
 

“A model in a Kill Team unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a kill team unit has an ability on their original datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their kill team unit has that ability.”

 

Therefore, a Deathwatch Terminator model with the Crux Terminatus ability retains that ability, because Crux Terminatus does not require all models in the unit to have it to be active. Refer to my post where I transcribed the rule.

 

I can only infer you are misreading the mixed unit ability. It’s 100% clearly RAW with no room for interpretation true that every model in a proteus kill team that includes a Deathwatch Terminator model has  5+ invulnerable save. There is literally no other possible way to interpret it any differently within the constraints of the English language as written.

 

Again, I don’t believe this was intended, but it is absolutely without a doubt true as currently written at the time I am writing this response.

 

Edit: okay I re-read your earlier posts. You are getting hung up on the first sentence of the mixed unit ability. The second sentence is the key. It ONLY negates abilities if they ability text states that it requires all models in the unit must have the ability to function. The Teleport Strike ability has this text, but crux Terminatus does not. This is why crux Terminatus is not negated, and you must use the ability as written, which states that all models in the unit have a 5+ invulnerable save. This is also why they had to add text in the Indomitor kill team rules to state that only eradicators can shoot twice, or else every model would have been able to (including inceptors and aggressors!). They should have added a similar exception text for Crux Terminatus.  They just missed it, is all.


Edited by quasistellar, 22 December 2020 - 04:52 PM.


#23
ValourousHeart

ValourousHeart

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,054 posts
  • Location:DFW, Texas
  • Faction: Order of the Gossamer Shroud

I am using the mixed unit ability. It does not negate Crux Terminatus.

 

 

I think you are not correctly comprehending the mixed unit ability. 
 

“A model in a Kill Team unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet.  If a model in a kill team unit has an ability on their original datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their kill team unit has that ability.”

 

Therefore, a Deathwatch Terminator model with the Crux Terminatus ability retains that ability, because Crux Terminatus does not require all models in the unit to have it to be active. Refer to my post where I transcribed the rule.

 

I can only infer you are misreading the mixed unit ability. It’s 100% clearly RAW with no room for interpretation true that every model in a proteus kill team that includes a Deathwatch Terminator model has  5+ invulnerable save. There is literally no other possible way to interpret it any differently within the constraints of the English language as written.

 

Again, I don’t believe this was intended, but it is absolutely without a doubt true as currently written at the time I am writing this response.

 

Edit: okay I re-read your earlier posts. You are getting hung up on the first sentence of the mixed unit ability. The second sentence is the key. It ONLY negates abilities if they ability text states that it requires all models in the unit must have the ability to function. The Teleport Strike ability has this text, but crux Terminatus does not. This is why crux Terminatus is not negated, and you must use the ability as written, which states that all models in the unit have a 5+ invulnerable save. This is also why they had to add text in the Indomitor kill team rules to state that only eradicators can shoot twice, or else every model would have been able to (including inceptors and aggressors!). They should have added a similar exception text for Crux Terminatus.  They just missed it, is all.

 

I never said it negated it... just modified it.

 

We both agree that Crux Terminatus applies to the "unit."

 

Where I feel that you are misunderstanding the rule is in the fact that GW uses the term unit to refer to both a squad and a model.

 

In the context of the Deathwatch Terminator Squad, the term UNIT is referring to the Deathwatch Terminator Squad.

 

However with the Proteus Kill Team, you have to apply both Crux and Mixed Unit Ability, where mixed ability alters what the term UNIT in Crux is referring to.  Which means you are adding a single terminator that has the Crux Terminatus rule and therefore the "unit" in that context is the model.

 

On your Edit, yes I know that no one gets to Teleport in the kill team... except if you combat squad the Kill Team and include 5 TDA units in one combat squad, then you can teleport.  So that ability is always there because it comes with the TDA unit, it is just not usable for the Kill Team except in that specific situation.

 

No the reason they added that text to the Indomintor Kill Team is because they knew some jerk would try it if they didn't state it explicitly.  But I guess that is the point you were making.  Well played.



#24
Debauchery101

Debauchery101

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,439 posts

I never said it negated it... just modified it.

We both agree that Crux Terminatus applies to the "unit."

Where I feel that you are misunderstanding the rule is in the fact that GW uses the term unit to refer to both a squad and a model.

In the context of the Deathwatch Terminator Squad, the term UNIT is referring to the Deathwatch Terminator Squad.

However with the Proteus Kill Team, you have to apply both Crux and Mixed Unit Ability, where mixed ability alters what the term UNIT in Crux is referring to. Which means you are adding a single terminator that has the Crux Terminatus rule and therefore the "unit" in that context is the model.

On your Edit, yes I know that no one gets to Teleport in the kill team... except if you combat squad the Kill Team and include 5 TDA units in one combat squad, then you can teleport. So that ability is always there because it comes with the TDA unit, it is just not usable for the Kill Team except in that specific situation.

No the reason they added that text to the Indomintor Kill Team is because they knew some jerk would try it if they didn't state it explicitly. But I guess that is the point you were making. Well played.

Please show me the text saying...
That when joining a Mixed-Unit, the model with abilities that affect the Unit cannot be used in Mixed units

The mixed unit rules only apply to toughness. I think you've been more focused on wound allocation priority and saves.
For example
If you need to make 5 armor saves..choose a save stat from your unit. After all saves are resolved using that chosen save, you allocate wounds first to all models who share that same Save stat.

Edited by Debauchery101, 23 December 2020 - 07:41 AM.

The Pleasure God's Chosen

Emperor's Children (RIP) 2500 pts
Death Guard 3500 pts
Iron Warriors 3000 pts
Enslaved Traitor Guardsmen 1500 pts
Daemons 4000 pts
Salamanders 3000 pts
Necrons 2000 pts

#25
Imren

Imren

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 718 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, Sweden
  • Faction: Legio XX

Hehe, these kind of conflicts is part of the reason i play 30k instead.

 

No one in the 30k community would argue against a sensible RAI "interpretation" were the RAW is obviously (a mistake from GW part) unsensible.

 

I'm sure you all agree tha it is unsensible that a termie in a squad of power armoured members bestow the termie invul save onto the other squad members, regardless of what GW wrote in the rules. Therefore this discussion would not have occured in the 30k community.


  • Sloeberjong likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users