60 replies to this topic

[Mobius0288]

I would offer, rather than further dissecting the words to figure out RAI, that the 5++ wouldn't protect you against most common infantry weapons on the table top. If you run down to the store and end up fighting space marines, you'll be up against some intercessors with rapid fire during tactical doctrine with AP -2 shots. That still puts your guys at a 5+ save, or you can use your 5++ save.... whichever feels more awesome. Now there's some AP -3 infantry capable weapons out there and that's when it would matter (looking at you stalker bolt rifles during devastation doctrine) but they aren't a common threat to build your list around. Most of which are anti-vehicle weapons. The Vindicare Assassin being the exception??

 

I would regularly play Thousand Sons before the lockdowns and their combi-bolters were always at AP -2. The only thing that saved me was having some storm shields. I brought the Dominus Aegis a couple times and it still tore through my intercessors hiding behind it (in 8th, it was more ideal to get a tank in the aura). Specifically when using terminators in my kill team to take saves, it was because they inherently had a 2+ save and 2 wounds that they would prolong the life of my veterans. The 2 wounds on vets makes a difference but without the 2+ save, the common infantry weapons are going to tear through you the same unless you bring a/some storm shields.

 

Side note: Comparing our Veterans vs Primaris via the wounds is fine, and a plus for our veterans. But with new transports and units available, primaris lists can be built to be on par with pure Vet lists.

 

So from my experience, I would just offer that even though a save is a save, it didn't make that big of a difference in most of the games. Enough damage was done by that point that the unit was fairly crippled in terms of fighting back next turn. Perhaps Vengeance rounds could change that this time around... Bring some storm shields or bring a transport - tried and true.

[techsoldaten]

I would offer, rather than further dissecting the words to figure out RAI, that the 5++ wouldn't protect you against most common infantry weapons on the table top. If you run down to the store and end up fighting space marines, you'll be up against some intercessors with rapid fire during tactical doctrine with AP -2 shots. That still puts your guys at a 5+ save, or you can use your 5++ save.... whichever feels more awesome. Now there's some AP -3 infantry capable weapons out there and that's when it would matter (looking at you stalker bolt rifles during devastation doctrine) but they aren't a common threat to build your list around. Most of which are anti-vehicle weapons. The Vindicare Assassin being the exception??

 

I would regularly play Thousand Sons before the lockdowns and their combi-bolters were always at AP -2. The only thing that saved me was having some storm shields. I brought the Dominus Aegis a couple times and it still tore through my intercessors hiding behind it (in 8th, it was more ideal to get a tank in the aura). Specifically when using terminators in my kill team to take saves, it was because they inherently had a 2+ save and 2 wounds that they would prolong the life of my veterans. The 2 wounds on vets makes a difference but without the 2+ save, the common infantry weapons are going to tear through you the same unless you bring a/some storm shields.

 

Side note: Comparing our Veterans vs Primaris via the wounds is fine, and a plus for our veterans. But with new transports and units available, primaris lists can be built to be on par with pure Vet lists.

 

So from my experience, I would just offer that even though a save is a save, it didn't make that big of a difference in most of the games. Enough damage was done by that point that the unit was fairly crippled in terms of fighting back next turn. Perhaps Vengeance rounds could change that this time around... Bring some storm shields or bring a transport - tried and true.

Yeah, that's the other thing. The 5+ invul save doesn't actually accomplish much.

 

With Terminators, you're trading a loss of offense for a slight gain on defense for a single 3 wound model. I don't see much benefit to Vanguard Vets or Bikes, they actually hinder Kill Teams in some ways.

 

Proteus Kill Teams are a mid-range unit that fights at about the level of Intercessors. Terminators giving them a slight invul boost doesn't really change how they perform because they have to fight up close. Aside from the fluff about the Crux Terminatus and the shard of the Emperor's Armor, the invul save is just one more special option you get from taking Kill Teams.

 

If there was a special rule I would have liked to have kept, it would have been Fall Back and Shoot. Guess that was a bridge too far...

[ValourousHeart]

With Terminators, you're trading a loss of offense for a slight gain on defense for a single 3 wound model. I don't see much benefit to Vanguard Vets or Bikes, they actually hinder Kill Teams in some ways.

 

Proteus Kill Teams are a mid-range unit that fights at about the level of Intercessors. Terminators giving them a slight invul boost doesn't really change how they perform because they have to fight up close.

 

Really, because I thought for a mid-range unit the ability to have a heavy weapon that wasn't penalized for moving was a nice little benefit.

 

Since they are troops with Obsec, they might want to move toward objectives, and having that bigger gun might help clear the way.  A Proteus Kill Team loaded up with 9 members carrying an assortment of infernus heavy bolters, frag cannons, heavy flamers, plasma cannons and assault cannons will clear infantry off of objectives in pretty short order.

 

Or if you are looking for a Deathwatch version of a Devistator Squad to deal with big stuff, the Proteus Kill Team with 4 missile launchers and 5 cyclone missile launchers isn't a terrible place to start.

[Mobius0288]

 

Really, because I thought for a mid-range unit the ability to have a heavy weapon that wasn't penalized for moving was a nice little benefit.

 

 

Only Thousand Son Scarab Occult Terminators have this rule. I smell heresy afoot....

[Debauchery101]

Really, because I thought for a mid-range unit the ability to have a heavy weapon that wasn't penalized for moving was a nice little benefit.

Only Thousand Son Scarab Occult Terminators have this rule. I smell heresy afoot....

Nah just reading comprehension.

Since Terminators no longer offer fearless I feel they are useless to mix in for most setups. It used to be great with fearless. You could deepstrike and blast stuff, maybe get into HTH. Or get blasted and charged in the opponents turn. With previously also getting THP a kill team will still last a couple turns and the terminator will ensure they get to fight to the bitter end.
But now his cost means a frag/hvy bolter and 1 storm shield i don't get to take on vets...the storm shield makes the vet better...2+/4+

Edited by Debauchery101, 13 January 2021 - 05:02 AM.

[techsoldaten]

 

With Terminators, you're trading a loss of offense for a slight gain on defense for a single 3 wound model. I don't see much benefit to Vanguard Vets or Bikes, they actually hinder Kill Teams in some ways.

 

Proteus Kill Teams are a mid-range unit that fights at about the level of Intercessors. Terminators giving them a slight invul boost doesn't really change how they perform because they have to fight up close.

 

Really, because I thought for a mid-range unit the ability to have a heavy weapon that wasn't penalized for moving was a nice little benefit.

 

Since they are troops with Obsec, they might want to move toward objectives, and having that bigger gun might help clear the way.  A Proteus Kill Team loaded up with 9 members carrying an assortment of infernus heavy bolters, frag cannons, heavy flamers, plasma cannons and assault cannons will clear infantry off of objectives in pretty short order.

 

Or if you are looking for a Deathwatch version of a Devistator Squad to deal with big stuff, the Proteus Kill Team with 4 missile launchers and 5 cyclone missile launchers isn't a terrible place to start.

 

 

Thanks for the comment. For the record, am just getting started with Deathwatch. Please forgive any blatant oversights on my part.

 

What gun do Terminators have that averages 2+ wounds vs MEQ? Plasma Cannons and Assault Cannons are nice to think about, but do they outperform SIA Bolters in the situations that count?

 

Because, otherwise, they're not clearing the way. It's weight of fire from the entire squad that does the work. Those guns do not individually justify the increased cost in points.

 

Yes, a (very expensive) Proteus Kill Team with 9 heavy weapons will have spectacular performance as well as target priority. It's also going to be able to clear things you can't take out with SIA Bolters. But I'm not sure that squad is going to reliably get into range to do something interesting with those Frag Cannons / Heavy Bolters. All Heavy Weapons means no Storm Shields.

 

From an efficiency standpoint - MSU Proteus Kill Teams with Bolters + Storm Shields may outperform big guns in most scenarios. Something about a large squad filled with heavy weapons screams high target priority to me.

Edited by techsoldaten, 13 January 2021 - 07:16 AM.

[Mobius0288]

If you end up fighting the new deathguard, the heavy plasma cannon could be a choice to ensure you take out a model. Previously, when the storm bolter had SIA, it outperformed the assault cannon. At the cost of no more than -1 to hit, it's still 6 shots at -1 AP. A heavy bolter is probably better due to being cheaper (on a vet).

 

Storm bolters are fine if that's all you have. It's not ideal from a points perspective as compared to a Vet, but shots are shots.

 

One or two terminators aren't bad (teleport homer, fire support, extra wound, etc.), but if you plan to bring more, just have a plan. Definitely keep in mind that the Fury of the First stayed a stratagem. It can be used on an "adeptus astartes" unit, which means a terminator unit or a kill team. Not ideal for a single terminator in the team but if you plan to have 5 in a kill team (or combat squaded), or a unit of 10... that will greatly alleviate the trouble of taking heavy weapons on terminators. Power fists and Thunder hammers as well.

Edited by Mobius0288, 13 January 2021 - 07:25 PM.

[Lemondish]

Keep in mind that Terminators only get the normal plasma cannon, not the heavy variety.

[ValourousHeart]

What gun do Terminators have that averages 2+ wounds vs MEQ? Plasma Cannons and Assault Cannons are nice to think about, but do they outperform SIA Bolters in the situations that count?

 

Well your personal experience may differ.  Mine is coming from a Ravenwing background with a particular fondness for land speeders.  Before lock downs, my last Ravenwing list included 14 land speeders, and has to be the most fun list I've played since I started playing 40k back near the end of 2nd edition.  (because almost everything had fly, and I got to go pew, pew, pew)

 

That list included 3 speeder squadrons of 4 speeders each.  Two of the squadrons were my mid-field units and had 3 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters, 2 multi-meltas and 1 heavy flamer.  The heavy flamer was mainly a charge deterrent since not much survived long enough to get within 8 inches of the squadrons.  The third squadron was 4 typhoon missile launchers and 4 heavy bolters, and tended to stay farther back and deal with big things.  The slowest things in the army were a pair of Invictor War Suits.  Speeders and dreadnoughts that can keep up with speeders, what's not to love.

 

Anyway, I digress, both assault cannon squadrons would consistently deal more damage in a turn than the typhoon squadron.  This mainly had to do with the higher number of shots that the assault cannons had over the typhoons combined with the extreme damage drop off associated with any missed shots from the typhoons and the swingy nature of d6 damage rolls.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

Really, because I thought for a mid-range unit the ability to have a heavy weapon that wasn't penalized for moving was a nice little benefit.

 

 

Only Thousand Son Scarab Occult Terminators have this rule. I smell heresy afoot....

 

 

Nah just reading comprehension.

 

Well I don't think it is heresy, but others might.  I haven't played TDA units since 3rd edition.  What I have played since then is bikes and speeders, and for some reason I assumed that when bikes got to move and fire heavy weapons again in 9th, that TDA units got it as well.

[techsoldaten]

 

What gun do Terminators have that averages 2+ wounds vs MEQ? Plasma Cannons and Assault Cannons are nice to think about, but do they outperform SIA Bolters in the situations that count?

 

Well your personal experience may differ.  Mine is coming from a Ravenwing background with a particular fondness for land speeders.  Before lock downs, my last Ravenwing list included 14 land speeders, and has to be the most fun list I've played since I started playing 40k back near the end of 2nd edition.  (because almost everything had fly, and I got to go pew, pew, pew)

 

That list included 3 speeder squadrons of 4 speeders each.  Two of the squadrons were my mid-field units and had 3 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters, 2 multi-meltas and 1 heavy flamer.  The heavy flamer was mainly a charge deterrent since not much survived long enough to get within 8 inches of the squadrons.  The third squadron was 4 typhoon missile launchers and 4 heavy bolters, and tended to stay farther back and deal with big things.  The slowest things in the army were a pair of Invictor War Suits.  Speeders and dreadnoughts that can keep up with speeders, what's not to love.

 

Anyway, I digress, both assault cannon squadrons would consistently deal more damage in a turn than the typhoon squadron.  This mainly had to do with the higher number of shots that the assault cannons had over the typhoons combined with the extreme damage drop off associated with any missed shots from the typhoons and the swingy nature of d6 damage rolls.

 

That's a nice story about Ravenwing. I have a similar fondness for my Chaos armies, you would have loved what I was doing with lascannon spam in 8th edition.

 

But Deathwatch Terminators are what most concern me. Given the points difference over a Veteran, how many can you include in Kill Teams before they become points inefficient compared to Vets with SIA Bolters?

 

It's not that SIA is going to solve all problems. At most, you can include 3 Terminators with heavy weapons in a Kill Team. For the same cost, you could have 5 more Vets with Bolters and Storm Shields.