12 replies to this topic

[The Observer]

Hello everyone! I decided to post this up here, because a lot of HH players in my area are disappointed by the mess that the 30k Dark Angels rules are. Several issues seemed particularly egregious to us:

 

1.) Horrible or downright unplayable Rites of War (See the Stormwing and the Deathwing Rites of War in particular)

2.) Confused rules writing (See Enigmatus Cabal, Farith Redloss and Marduk Sedras' inability to utilize his special rule if in a Dreadwing RoW)

3.) Overcosted and oftentimes useless Hexagrammaton rules

4.) A legion trait that is very limited in use (Sure, quite a few things such as praetors, tacticals, despoilers and destroyers may profit from it but nobody is taking Terminators, Centurions or Sergeants with swords - AP2 is just too much of a must in that regard)

 

Thus, I have decided to homebrew large parts of the DA rules section (With heaps of help from players around me). We have playtested these for about one and a half months now (around 20 games ranging from 1k to 4k in points) and have come to the conclusion that we are slowly inching in on something that we would consider not just playable, but also more similar in power level to legions such as the Blood Angels, White Scars, Space Wolves and the updated Night Lords.

 

I'll spoiler each section as the rules blocks are pretty big - each spoiler section includes my thoughts as to how or why something was decided upon. Feel absolutely free to use these yourself. I'd appreciate your thoughts, suggestions and criticisms in this matter - I have never homebrewed anything to this extent so your words will be invaluable to me.

 

Spoiler

Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels)
All units and models with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:

-Legiones Astartes: May always attempt to Regroup at their normal Leadership Value, re-gardless of casualties.

-The Knights of Caliban: When fighting in an assault and when fighting a model with an equal Weapon Skill a model with this special rule hits on a 3+.

-Scions of the Hexagrammaton: Eligible models with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule may select additional options from both the Scions of the Hexagrammaton and/or Scions of the Hekatonystika sections.

-Inviolate and Alone: Models with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule may never benefit from the Leadership characteristic or any Leadership-related bonus or special rule from any model which does not have the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) or the Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

 

Thoughts: Our original Legiones Astartes rule is quite an interesting one. It predisposes the legion towards CC - a good thing - and it also offers an interesting niche of benefits when placed next to White Scars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, World Eaters and NIght Lords. That said, the limitation that these have to be swords is an extremely severe one as it ensures that certain units will never see that benefit - units that by all means are meant to wind up in close combat. (Some of our historians were also miffed that the Knightly Legion was limited to swords when actual knights - by all accounts - used a wide variety of weapons). Thus - both for aesthetic and practical reasons - we have decided to keep the main idea of the rule - improvement of to-hit rolls in an equal-skill environment - but extend it to all close combat weapons. The group has been most satisfied with this rules out of everything we have done thus far.

 

Scions of the Hexagrammaton (+15p) – Functions much as Crusade describes it. Any unit with the Character subtype or any Independent Character may take any one of these options – but no more than one – for 15 points. These benefits are conferred to the units to which these Scions are attached to. Different benefits may indeed stack with each other.

 

Scions of the Dreadwing: Ignores Difficult Terrain. May reroll failed Dangerous Terrain Tests.
Scion of the Deathwing: Gains Feel no Pain (+6).
Scions of the Stormwing: Reroll failed BS checks of 1.
Scions of the Firewing: Gains Hatred (Characters).
Scions of the Ironwing: Reroll failed Pinning Tests.
Scions of the Ravenwing: Grants a Hammer of Wrath attack on the charge – stacks with other sources of Hammer of Wrath.

 

Thoughts: The Scions of the Hexagrammaton rules as they are, are overcosted and barely useful. There is no reason whatsoever to pick the original Scions of the Deathwing (which does nothing for the unit attached) when one has Scions of the Firewing available. It is also insane to have a mandatory 75 point sink (3 x 25p for compulsory choices) for any one of the original Rites of War in the book - if not more if you run the Dreadwing RoW. As such, we have both lowered the points cost and rewritten the majority of the Scions rules (The only one kept as is was the Firewing one). The only two we had to scratch our heads a bit for were the Ironwing and Ravenwing one. All of them try to orient themselves thematically on how the Wings and their preceeding Hosts and Orders are presented in Crusade. Main inspiration here were the Thousand Sons Temple Rules - we did not want them to be free, but we wanted them to be more powerful than they are right now, without handing out free Invul Saves and Invul Saves Improvements.

 

Legion Equipment

 

While the two swords we received are pretty cool, a lot of use have used the crow's beak hammers that come with the Ravenwing Knights kit from 40k for our units and sergeants - so we decided to make both a cool legion item as well as grant our sergeants some legion-native AP2 options. We have also decided to make the Calibanite Charge Blade more widely available to the army as well as patch it up slightly, as we think it's a bit too naff for a Unit that completely centers itself on slaying characters.

 

Spoiler

Legion Specific Wargear
-Any Character with the LA(DA) special rule with access to a power sword as part of their wargear may instead take a Calibanite Charge Blade for +15 points instead or exchange a power sword that is part of their basic equipment for a Calibanite Warblade for +5 points.

-Any Character with the LA(DA) special rule with access to a power fist as part of their wargear may instead take a Calibanite Hidebreaker for +25 instead or exchange a power fist that is part of their basic equipment for a Calibanite Hidebreaker for free.

 

-Breachers may exchange their bolters for chainswords for free, or they may take a chainsword for +2 points per model. The whole unit must be outfitted in such a way.

                                                    Range    Str      AP      Type

Calibanite Hidebreaker (Beak)        -         +2        2        Melee, Two-Handed
Calibanite Hidebreaker (Hammer)   -         +1        3        Melee, Concussive
Calibanite Charge-Blade                 -         +1        3        Melee, Charge-Blade*
Calibanite Charge Blade (Charged) -         +2        2        Melee, Gets Hot, Burn-Out**

 

*Charge-Blade: Once per game, at the start of any Fight sub-phase, the controlling player may choose to activate the charge cells contained within these weapons. If this is done, it affects all models within the unit armed with a Calibanite Charge-Blade. Affected units use the (Charged) profile until the end of that Fight sub-phase.

**Burn-Out: Each wound caused as a result of the Charge-Blade's Gets Hot rule is doubled.

 

Thoughts: This was not as critical of a project to us as the LA and Hexagrammaton rules, so we didn't pay as much attention to balancing as we probably should have but here it is anyways. The Hidebreaker has thus far been relatively fine - pretty similar to the White Scars' glaive. The only thing we are debating is if the Concussive rule on the Hammer side of the Weapon's profile is a tad too much and if we instead should just turn it into a more generic +2S AP3 weapon that just happens to not be two-handed (unlike the Beak half of the profile). Another option might be to remove the (Hammer) profile completely and instead create a new rule for the Hidebreaker as is, maybe something relating to causing even more horrific wounds if the beak strikes properly. Something like causing 2 instead of 1 wound on a To-Wound roll of 6 with no overspill? Not too sure, would love some thoughts. We've also been thinking about making Calibanite Warblades available to Veterans for +15 points a model instead of +10 as it is on sergeants - thoughts?

 

Now, we move to the Rites of War. You will be quick to notice that there are only four Rites of War here (Fire, Death, Dread and Stormwing). The reason for that is simple: I consider the two Protocol rites of war (the ones from book 6) to be the best Dark Angels Rites of War out of any that were written for the First Legion and as such have oriented myself on those when coming up with the other four Protocols. Me and my group still use the Ironwing and Ravenwing Protocols on the regular, so we didn't really need any newly written up ones. As you will see, the four following Rites of War add significant bonuses to the army in question, but they also impose a lot of limitations. You will also notice that attention was paid to encourage people to play their units as specific Scions. I.e. your compulsory units must belong to a particular Wing but the advantages given out with the Protocols are only accessible to Scions of the Wing in question.

 

The Deathwing Protocol

 

Spoiler

Bonuses
Primus Inter Pares: Legion Veteran Squads and Legion Terminator Squads can be taken as Troops choices.

 

Wreathed in Tempest: All models equipped with Terminator Armour gain access to Teleport Transponders (+15p). Additionally, if they are Scions of the Deathwing they roll 1d6 instead of 2d6 dice for purposes of Scatter.

 

Unyielding: All Scions of the Deathwing gain Counter Attack.

 

Marshall of the Unbroken Vow: Independent Characters that are Scions of the Deathwing gain +1 Attack in challenges.

 

Slayer of Kings: Your Warlord may reroll failed to Wound rolls of 1 in challenges.

Restrictions
The Deathwing: All compulsory choices in this Detachment must include at least one Scion of the Deathwing. The numeric sum of Scions of the Deathwing in this Detachment must exceed the numeric sum of Scions that belong to other Wings. Your Warlord must either be a Scion of the Deathwing or Lion El'Johnson.

 

Full Force: Must take one additional compulsory Troops choice and one additional compulsory Elite choice. All Compulsory Troops and Compulsory Elites choices must either be Legion Veteran Squads or Legion Terminator Squads.

 

The Unthinkable: If all Scions of the Deathwing are destroyed, the enemy immediately gains an additional 3 Victory points.

 

The Order of the Shattered Crown: A Scion of the Deathwing may never deny a challenge and must always issue one, if possible.

 

And in their Wake only Death would follow: All models equipped with Terminator Armour must either deploy via Deepstriking or begin the game embarked within a vehicle.

 

An Order Shrouded: You may not take an Allied detachment.

 

Thoughts: Deathwing without teleportation is a no-go, thus we gave the Deathwing access to Teleport Transponders. As a cross-Wing means of balancing we have also decided to keep them exclusively to the Deathwing and Deathwing Characters. I was also a fan of the idea that the Deathwing moves in and then defends their targets until their dying breath - something that their original Rite of War in Crusade alludes to - so I decided to grant all Scions of the Deathwing the Counter Attack rule. It makes them more dangerous and capable in Close Combat, without necessarily improving their deadliness on the charge. Some abilities, such as the Marshall one, have been taken over from the Crusade RoW - you'll see this in several other Protocols as well. At the end of the Day, this was meant to be a sort of Pride of the Legion+ Rite of War, which is a concept already explored to horrific effect in the Court of the Crimson King RoW of the Thousand Sons. 

 

The Stormwing Protocol

 

Spoiler

Bonuses
Masters of the Storm of War: Any Legion Tactical Squad, Legion Assault Squad or Legion Veteran Squad may include a Legion Centurion. This Centurion is considered part of the squad it is purchased with, may not leave it during play nor select any Consul upgrades and may not be chosen as the army’s Warlord. These Centurions must be Scions of the Firewing. They do not count as occupying a slot within a Force Organization Chart themselves and are instead covered by the Slot of the unit they are attached to.

 

Superior Marksmen: Legion Veteran Squads that contain a Scion of the Firewing may take the Marksmen Tactic (+1 to BS) for +20 points per unit.

 

Marshalls of the Storm: Lion El'Johnson as well as Legion Praetors and Legion Centurions in this detachment that are Scions of the Firewing may attempt to issue a single order each per game turn. Orders affect the issuing model and the unit it has joined, with no given unit able to benefit from more than one order in any turn (once an order has been successfully issued to a unit in any given turn, any further orders issued to it in that turn automatically fail). To successfully issue an order, the model must declare the order it intends to use and then pass a Leadership test. All order effects last until the start of Controlling Player's next turn and affect only the issuing model and the Squad joined by it.

-Hold the Line: Declare at the start of the Movement phase. May not be used if engaged in combat at the start of that phase. If successfully issued, the unit is accompanied gains the Feel No Pain (+6) special rule, but may not move that turn.

-Volley Fire: Declare at the start of the Shooting Phase. May only target a Legion Tactical Squad. If successfully issued, the unit accompanied may make a Fury of the Legion attack even if it has moved this turn (but not if it ran or disembarked/embarked from a transport in the same turn).

-Full Assault: Declare at the start of the Assault Phase, before any Charges are declared. May only be used if not engaged in combat at the start of that phase. If successfully issued, the unit accompanied gains the Furious Charge rule.

-Field Reserves: Declare at the start of the controlling player's turn if this unit is in Reserve, regardless of the current turn number. If successfully issued, the unit accompanied automatically passes its reserve test and gains the Outflank special rule.

 

The Storm Unleashed: Legion Veterans may be taken as Troops choices. Legion Rapier Batteries with Quad Heavy Bolters may be taken as non-compulsory Troops choices.

 

Advance and Hold: All Legion Tactical Squads, Legion Veteran Squads and Legion Breacher Squads fire Overwatch at BS 2 if they are currently holding an Objective and their unit contains a Scion of the Stormwing.

Restrictions
The Stormwing: All compulsory choices in this Detachment must include at least one Scion of the Firewing. The numeric sum of Scions of the Firewing in this Detachment must exceed the numeric sum of Scions that belong to other Wings. Your Warlord must either be a Scion of the Stormwing or Lion El'Johnson.

 

An Order of Chains: If all HQs in this army are slain, the enemy gains +1 additional VP per slain HQ. In addition, if the army’s Warlord is slain, then every unit in the Dark Angels detachment with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule must take an immediate Pinning test with the exception of those with the Independent Character special rule or who have had an Independent Character join their unit.

 

The Sable Ranks: This army may not contain more vehicles (including walkers) than infantry or jump-infantry units (Legion Rapier Batteries are counted as Infantry for the purposes of this restriction).

 

They brought more men: Must take two additional Troops choices.

 

Frontline Duty: Units in this army may not elect to Infiltrate or Deepstrike by whatever means possible.

 

Lords amongst Mortals: A Detachment with this Rite of War may only be allied to Detachments of the Solar Auxilia or Imperialis Militia.

 

Thoughts: The Stormwing Rite of War as written in Crusade is utter nonsense, considering that only the Centurions parked in your compulsory troops choices do not occupy a slot in your FoC - meaning that with all limitations in place you will A.) only be able to make use of your orders on a very limited number of troops and B.) only see a Stormwing army in massive games, where they will be massively crippled by their horrid limitations. Thus, we've decided to make the army building a bit more flexible and also focus on the Stormwing as a force of infantry and supporting units that are pretty much the 30k Version of the 40k "Greenwing". Veterans were also included here because Crusade makes mention of just how reliant on their veterans the Stormwing is and how traditionalist and conservative these are in the way that they wage war. Bolter Rapier batteries were also included here because I love them and you - quite frankly - don't see enough of them (Unless they are Quad Launchers or Grav Rapiers...which is not something I wanted to encourage). All in all, this is a more flexible and open form of playing the Stormwing that preserves the core element of the OG RoW (The Orders, which are a carbon copy of the Book Orders) while allowing you to - y'know - actually make a fun army for yourself. The one thing we've debated most around here is reintroducing the old Marksmen strat for Veterans, since they lose out on Infiltrate here and we felt that if we're reintroducing it, then it needs a price attached to it as it is damn good. We're currently swaying between 10 to 20 points per unit. I'd be very happy to hear any thoughts concerning this.

 

The Firewing Protocol

 

Spoiler

Bonuses
The Hand Obscured: Legion Seeker Squads and Legion Veteran Squads can be taken as Troops selections.

 

The Hand Unseen: Any unit that may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport can instead take a Legion Drop Pod or Legion Dreadclaw.

 

The Hand Revealed: Up to three Troops choices containing a Scion of the Firewing chosen by the controlling player may be given the Infiltrate rule.

 

Search and Destroy: Legion Veteran Squads and Legion Seeker Squads may leave the board during the movement phase and enter Ongoing Reserves, where they gain Outflank.

 

Designated Targets: At the start of the game, the controlling player must select three enemy HQ, Elites or Lords of War choices as Designated Targets and openly declare their selection to the opposing player. All units in this detachment that include at least one Scion of the Firewing may add +1 to all To Wound or Armour Penetration rolls made against these Designated Targets.

 

Marshall of the Everburning Flame: Independent Characters that are Scions of the Firewing gain +1 Attack when locked in combat with a Designated Target.


Restrictions
The Firewing: All compulsory choices in this Detachment must include at least one Scion of the Firewing. The numeric sum of Scions of the Firewing in this Detachment must exceed the numeric sum of Scions that belong to other Wings. Your Warlord must either be a Scion of the Firewing or Lion El'Johnson.

 

Highest Priority: If any of the Designated Targets are still alive and on the board by the end of the game, then the enemy immediately gains 3 VP per surviving

Designated Target - any victory for the controlling player is instead counted as a draw for the purposes of campaigns.

 

Swift and Deadly: No units equipped with terminator armour or Super Heavy Vehicles may be chosen in this army. No non-skimmer vehicle may be taken in squadrons.

 

The Host of Fire: All compulsory Troops choices must be filled with either Legion Seeker, Legion Veteran or Legion Breacher Squads.
 

Infiltration Force: You may not take more vehicles than Infantry units (excluding Skimmers).

 

Paranoid: May not take any Legion allies or fortifications.

 

A Bitter Pride: Scions of the Firewing may never deny a challenge.

 

Thoughts: The Serpent's Bane RoW from Crusade is probably the most fun to play as is (in my opinion) but it is slightly hampered by the massive drawback of instant-loss if the targets still live. However, I wanted something with a bit more oomph, so I added a dash of Raven Guard in there as well as the ability for certain units to quickly redeploy, like in the Ravenwing Protocol. I have, however, removed the Enigmatus Cabal from the Troops slot shift, as with the changes to Calibanite Charge-Blades I was afraid that they might wind up too powerful - plus with the incentive to take land speeders, I hope to cause a bit of competition in the fast attack slot. With all the changes, I have also removed the Serpent's Bane rule that adds Rage to infiltrating squads that arrive within 17'' of Designated Targets (Priority Targets in the original) as I wanted the RoW to primarily grant the player lots of mobility and sneakiness - for killing power you will primarily have to rely on building your units properly. This is not an army where you'll see a lot of heavy-weight units - veterans, seekers, speeders and the occasional Dreadnought will be your mainstay with sicarians as support. The Breacher Squads as potential compulsory troops were kept as A.) I've added the ability for players to take Chainswords on their breachers and B.) the original outlines of the Firewing made mention of Breachers being a favoured choice within the organization so I wanted to keep that aspect - particularly if you are playing ZM.

 

The Dreadwing Protocol

 

Spoiler

Bonuses
Dread Legion: Legion Destroyer Squads, Legion Veteran Squads and Interemptor Squads can be taken as Troops choices.

 

A Host of Despoilers: All Scions of the Dreadwing and units containing them gain Fleet while outside of their Deployment Zone.

 

The Ashen Soil: All open ground areas outside of both players’ deployment zones counts as Difficult Terrain. All Terrain contained within these areas initially designated as Difficult Terrain (such as woods, ruins etc.) now counts as Dangerous Terrain instead. Impassable Terrain, Buildings and Fortifications are unaffected by this.

 

City-Fighters: Scions of the Dreadwing and all units containing them ignore Cover Saves provided by manmade structures (i.e. ruins, buildings, walls etc.).

 

Salt the Earth and Burn the Sky: All Infantry units with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule that include at least one Scion of the Dreadwing and all Characters that are Scions of the Dreadwing may take the following additional options:
-All models in the unit may be equipped with rad grenades            +20 points per unit
-All models in the unit may be equipped with stasis grenades        +25 points per unit

-An Independent Character may be equipped with Rad Grenades +10 points

-A Character may take up to three Phosphex Bombs                     +10 points per bomb

 

Marshall of the Eskaton: Enemy models within LoS and 12’ of an Independent Character that is a Scion of the Dreadwing receive -1 to their Leadership. This is not a cumulative effect.

Restrictions
The Dreadwing: All compulsory choices in this Detachment must include at least one Scion of the Dreadwing. Your Warlord must either be a Scion of the Dreadwing or Lion El'Johnson.

 

The Host of Bones: All Scions of the Dreadwing and units containing them must always make Sweeping Advances and may never voluntarily go to ground.

 

Annihilation Force: Must take one additional compulsory Troops choice and one additional compulsory Heavy Support choice. All Compulsory Troops choices must be either Legion Veteran Squads, Legion Destroyer Squads or Interemptor Squads.

 

Unmistakeable Intent: All Infantry units and Independent Characters within this Detachment must either include or be a Scion of the Dreadwing. Scions of no other Wing may be present in this Detachment.

 

Singular Purpose: If the enemy has any units that are not falling back in their Deployment Zone at the end of the game then the opposing player gains +1 VP per unit, or +3 VP if it is a Scoring unit.

 

Accursed: A Detachment utilising this Rite of War may never take an Allied Detachment, nor can it ever be used to build an Allied Detachment.

 

Atmospheric Disturbance: No Jump Infantry, Jet-Bikes or Skimmers may be taken in this Detachment and the Jump Pack upgrade – where extant – is to be ignored.

 

Thoughts: This one was a bit difficult, because I actually quite like the Eskaton Imperative and play it myself. That said, there were some issues. Dreadwing and no access to Phosphex Bombs? We ain't havin' that. There is also the issue that Marduk Sedras ability Ancient of War...does not actually work when Marduk is taken in an Eskaton Imperative army. The rule stipulates that he confers Preferred Enemy (Faction of your choice) on himself and units starting the game within 6" of him "after deployment but before the first turn has begun" - which means that he and the units in question must be on the board/disembarked from any vehicles. Problem is: all your infantry must begin the game in a vehicle when taken in the Eskaton Imperative rite of war. So the transport limitation went the way of the dodo to make army selection more flexible and also available to Zone Mortalis games. The Close Combat aspect has also been hammed up somewhat as the lore for the Dreadwing has them be successors of brutal and dour demeanours found within the Skandian recruits of Terra and the tendencies of the Host of Bones. The playtest Destroyers want to be in CC and its also not a bad spot for DA Veterans to be, so Fleet it is - but tied to the Eskaton Imperative's idea of the army moving out of the own deployment zone. WIth this Protocol, I want to give players the liberty to build a bit more of a flexible army - yes - but I still want to force them to fan out and gun/run/club the enemy down, which is why they gain Fleet outside the own deployment zone but also don't want to have anything not-falling-back in the enemy's deployment zone.

         The dangerous/difficult terrain rule has also been reworked as I find keeping track of extra markers to be tedious, so we as a group playtested how my Ashen Soil rule works compared to the Eskaton Imperative and feedback has been very positive. It helps establish the RoW as a city-fighting force - one that moves in and starts cleansing the place with chainswords, bolters, phosphex, plasma and fire. In order to balance the army slightly, I have decided to remove jet-bikes, jump-infantry and skimmers. The Bonuses in this army are already considerable - but the idea of a lumbering, methodical and potentially mechanized force should still be preserved. This RoW is probably my personal passion project so I am a bit worried that I might have given the Dreadwing too many goodies so please, I rely on your judgement because I know that what might work for my group might not actually be all that balanced in the grander scheme of things.

 

Phew, lots of writing.

 

A few final notes: Some of you may notice that all of the Protocols introduce Legion Veterans as potential troops. This has been done for both crunch and fluff reasons. I've noticed that people like Veterans - they want to build them, paint them and fully lean into legion aesthetics and gimmicks that may otherwise feel like too much on more run-of-the-mill squads like Tacticals. They are fun to build and come with so many options that they can fulfill completely different purposes in different armies. This is an option for people to make their armies more varied or to have units pull double duty if they want to be able to run several different RoW. Fluff wise, Crusade tells us that one of the reasons the Dark Angels were so successful as a force was because the hosts and wings heavily relied on their veterans teaching new recruits and sharing their wisdom with them - as such, I wanted to give people the ability to display that on the table. Once Wings are assimilated into proper forces, the veterans pull together in much larger numbers and the expertise of all wing-members becomes apparent - or so I imagine it at least.

 

If you have made it this far, then I want to say thank you for taking your time to read this. Thank you even more, if you contribute anything to this - be it kind words or sharp criticism, I appreciate both in equal measure and am very reliant on what you think concerning balancing and power-levels.

 

The next post will contain my attempts at working out a new/less confused version of Farith Redloss as well as an overhaul of the Scions of the Hekatonystika.

 

Have a good one,

 

The Observer

Edited by The Observer, 18 January 2021 - 01:27 AM.

[Metaliptica]

Only my humble opinion here :

 

I like the change to the LA DA and points adjustments to the scions rule. That said : the additional weapons aren't really necessary and the calibanite Hidebreaker is too powerfull IMO (compare it to the WS glaive and you'll start to know why). The change to the original LA rule is already powerfull and is sufficient enough.

As for the RoW : not going to lie I like what you did here. At least the idea and fluff behind them. 

Can't wait to see your take on the rest  

[The Observer]

Thanks, Metaliptica! I've logged your suggestions in my file. I think it might be the smartest to cut the additional rules as you suggest - the new LA does seem to take care of most issues in hindsight, if not all of them.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Ok, so the first thing I’m going say, and you’re not going to like this, is that your legion is in an incredibly privileged position. I get that some of the rules are less competitive, but that is something that is common to almost all legions.

The Alpha legion are my main force, headhunters lack synergy and are overcosted, lernaeans have odd mixed weapon options. I could argue the headhunter leviathanal is unusable. But non of that stops me using those options, in fact one of my most enjoyable games was using headhunters and their RoW, I lost by virtue of the victory conditions, but the game was so immersive and fluffy, that didn’t matter.

I too long for a day when all options to every legion are fully useable, and balanced, but the history of 30k (and its haphazard support) and the complexity of rule writing suggests this will never happen.

Onto the rules, bravo for taking the time to consider the improvements. I’m not going to comment on everything, I’m not a DA player, but I will make a comment on a few obvious issues.

Generally, small rules tweaks are all that’s needed to move something from being terrible to viable. So try making a small adjustment first and then play test the outcome.

The obvious issues for me are:

1. Eskaton imperative, this is a fluffy and useable RoW without any tweaks. The fact you have to all take dedicated transports is actually a balancing factor. Giving access to rad and phosphex whilst fluffy, encroaches on the death guard RoW. It’s not needed. Your basic troops (destroyers etc) already have access, avoiding the tactical tax is advantage enough.

2. Veteran tactical squads in all RoW as compulsory troops, again unnecessary. It invalidates “chosen duty” and “pride of the legion”, it takes away from the flavour of your DA RoW. Pride of the legions only real benefit is to put vets and terminators into the troops slot, at the cost of potential lost VPs. Chosen duty requires you to run a delegatus, so no LoW and your probably only going to run it at low points levels. There’s nothing to balance the inclusion of veterans in each RoW.

3. Wide access to AP2 initiative CC weapons. Again this detracts from other legions unique ability (BA/WS). AP2 initiative CC weapons should be a rarity, to those legions who posses them it adds character they are both famed for their martial skill and speed in combat.

It’s widely supported that the DA were masters of all forms of legionary warfare. But I still believe that individual legions that focus on a particular variant of war would outperform them. IH with their tanks and mechanicum ties, DG with their predilection for rad and phosphex, WS for their rapid strike tactics etc etc.

I think the current DA rules represent that reasonably well, access to a lot of options, at a cost.

Hope that helps in some way,

Cadmus

[Varyn]

I intended to provide some feedback and suggestions and having read over the details I honestly couldn't have put it any better than Cadmus!

 

I think the biggest takeaway is Cadmus' comment that small tweaks are the way forward. This is echoed in the 2019 FAQ with the tweaks to some of the older units; the changes are relatively small but make the units feel a lot more viable. 

 

I feel that a lot of the problems that are trying to be addressed are the result of comparisons against some of the perceived imbalances in other legions, which leads players to feel that their own legion has been overlooked or left behind.

[Metaliptica]

In an attempt to give you ideas and feedback : this is the custom rules we are using at my LGS when playing DA. YOu'll notice some similarities as I suspect we did gather thoughts and ideas from the same place.

LA rules:

·           Legiones Astartes: Units with this special rulke may always attempt to Regroup at their normal Leadership value, regardless of casualties.

·           An Order of Knights: When fighting in an assault with a close combat weapon and when fighting a model with an equal Weapon Skill, a model with this special rule hits on a 3+.

·           Scions of the Hexagrammaton: Eligible models with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule may select additional options from both the Scions of the Hexagrammaton or Scion of the Hekatonystika section.

·           Inviolate and Alone: Models with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule may never benefit from the Leadership characteristic or any Leadership related bonus or special rule from any model which does not also have the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) or Sire of the Dark Angels special rules.

 

Both Scion rules now cost 15 points and are as follow (Hekatonystica options remain unchainged):

·           Scion of the Stormwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of make Snap Shots at a Ballistic Skill of 2.

·           Scion of the Deathwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of have the Feel no Pain (6+) special rule.

·           Scion of the Dreadwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of Have the Move Through Cover special rule.

·           Scion of the Ironwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of gain the Rending special rule when attacking a vehicle.

·           Scion of the Firewing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of have the Precision Strike special rule.

 

·           Scion of the Ravenwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of gain the Acute Senses and Night Vision special rule.

 

Legion wargear and wargear prices is unchainged

 

Concerning the RoW:

 

The Dreadwing Protocol:

Effects:

·           Dread Legion: Legion Destroyer Squad and Dreadwing Interemptors may be taken as Troops choices in a primary Detachment using this Rite of War.

·           Marshall of the Eskaton: All enemy models within 12” and that can draw line of sight to an Independent Character with the Scion of the Dreadwing of Sire of the Dark Angels special rule have their Leadership value reduced by 1. This effect does not apply to units that are immune to the effect of the Fear special rule. This effect is not cumulative, and any given enemy unit may only be affected by it once regardless of how many models with this special rule are within range and line of sight.

·           Masters of the Blackened Earth: Before any models are deployed, the Dark Angels player may choose to place up to three Eskaton markers anywhere in the playing area that is 6” from any table edge. The area within 6” of an Eskaton marker, including terrain pieces within the zone of this effect is counted as Dangerous terrain in addition to any other effects for the duration of the game.

·           Salt the Earth, Burn the Sky: All Infantry units with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule that include at least one model with the Scion of the Dreadwing special rule, and all Independent Characters with the scion of the Dreadwing special rule may take the following additional options:
 - Any model in the unit may be equipped with rad grenades …………………………………………………………………………………………………..+10 points per model

 - Any model in the unit may be equipped with stasis grenades ………………………………………………………………………………………………..+20 points per model
 - All models with the option to select a Heavy weapon may instead take a plasma incinerator .………………………………..………………….+15 points per model

- All models with the option to select a Heavy weapon may instead take a plasma incinerator with suspensor web………………..……….+20 points per model

Limitations:

·           All compulsory troops choices in a detachment must include at least one model with the scion of the Dreadwing special rule.

·           If the enemy has any units that are not falling back in your deployment zone at the end of the game then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

·           The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Dreadwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

·           All infantry units and Independent Characters included in this army without the Scion of the Dreadwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule must be deployed embarked within a Transport vehicle, including those placed into Reserves.

 

·           The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.

 

The Ironwing Protocol:

Effects:

·           Iron Brethren: All Infantry units that include at least one model with the Scion of the Ironwing special rule gain the Fearless special rule during the turn they Disembarked from a transport.

·           Marshall of the Steel Fist: Every time an Independent character with the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule Roll on the Vehicle damage table, Crew Shaken results apply the effect of Crew Stunned instead.

·           Armored Assault: All vehicles with the Tank type in a detachment using this Rite of War automatically ignore the first Dangerous Terrain test they failed.

·           Goliaths of War: All Dreadnoughts (of any type) included in detachments that use this Rite of War have the Fear and Tank Hunters special rules.

Limitations:

·           All infantry units in the army must begin the game deployed in a transporting vehicle with the Tank type that has sufficient Transport capacity to carry them

·           At least half of the units in the army must consist entirely of Vehicles with the Tank type.

·           Should all the tanks in the force be destroyed in the battle, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

·           The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

·           The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.

 

The Stormwing Protocol:

Effects:

·           Masters of the Storm: All Infantry units with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule that include at least one model with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule, and all Independent Characters with the scion of the Stormwing special rule may take the following additional options:
 - Independent Character may upgrade their armor to Hardened Armor…………………………………………………….……………………….…….+5 points
 - All models from a squad may be equipped with Hardened Armor .………………………………..………………………………………….……….….+25 points

·           Marshall of War: Independent character with the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule gain the Interception special rule.

·           Field Maneuvers: each turn, one unit may come out of Reserve automatically and gains the outflank special rule

·           Hold the Line: When a unit with at least one model with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule did not move in its precedent movement phase, it automatically pass any Fear and Pinning test.

Limitations:

·           All Compulsory Troop choices must include at least one model with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule.

·           At least half of the units your army must be Infantry.

·           Should all of your Scoring units with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule in the force be destroyed in the battle, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

·           The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

 

·           The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.

 

The Deathwing Protocol:

Effects:

·           The Hammer of Caliban: Legion Veteran Squads and Legion Terminator Squads may be selected as Troops choices in this detachment.

·           Marshall of the Unbroken Vow: Independent character with the Scion of the Deathwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule add +1 to the wound value used to determine which side has won a given close combat. This effect is not cumulative, and any given enemy unit may only be affected by it once regardless of how many models with this special rule are within range and line of sight.

·           Shock and Awe: Units comprised of models equipped with any kind of Terminator Armor may be equipped with teleportation transponders for +15 points.

·           The Unbroken Vow: Models with the Scion of the Deathwing special rule add +1 to their Feel no Pain roll while in a challenge (to a maximum of 2+).

Limitations:

·           All Compulsory Troop choices must include at least one model with the Scion of the Deathwing special rule.

·           Should all of your Legion Terminator and Legion Veteran Squad with the Scion of the Deathwing special rule in the force be destroyed in the battle, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective worth 2 Victory Points.

·           The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Deathwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

 

·           The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.

 

 

The Ravenwing Protocol

Effects:

·           Iron Knights: Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadrons and Legion Outriders Squads may be taken as Troops choices in a primary Detachment using this Rite of War.

·           Marshall of the Seeker’s Arrow: Independent Characters with the Scion of the Ravenwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule ignore the effect of defensive grenades and the effect of difficult/dangerous terrain when charging at enemy units.

·           Search and Destroy: Jet Bikes and Skimmers (including those taken as mounts by Independent Characters) may leave the table in their own movement phase and be placed into Ongoing Reserves. These units re-enter play using the Outflank special rule

·           Graceful, Unerring and Deadly: Units that include at least one model with the Scion of the Ravenwing special rule may add +2 to one of these each turn: Charge rolls or Turbo-boost distances.

Limitations:

·           All compulsory troops choices in a detachment must include at least one model with the scion of the Ravenwing special rule.

·           If the enemy has any units that are not falling back in your deployment zone at the end of the game then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

·           The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Ravenwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

·           Your army can only include Vehicles with the Fast or Flyer type.

 

·           The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.

 

 

The Firewing Protocol:

Effects:

·           Decapitation Force: Legion Assault Squads and Firewing Enigmatus Cabal may be taken as Troops choices in a primary Detachment using this Rite of War.

·           Marshall of the Serpent’s Bane: Independent Characters with the Scion of the Firewing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule make Precision Strike on a roll of 5+.

·           Priority Target Kill List: At the end of Deployment, after infiltrators have been set up, nominate 3 Units with the HQ, Elite or Lord of War role. all Units that include at least one model with the Scion of the Firewing special rule may add 1 to the wound roll (to a maximum of 2+) when targeting designated units

·           Forward Deployment Protocol: At the beginning of the game, you can nominate up to 2 Units. These units (and any transport they are embarked in) gain the Scout special rule.

Limitations:

·           All compulsory troops choices in a detachment must include at least one model with the scion of the Firewing special rule

·           Should any of the designated targets from the Priority Target Kill List did not get removed from play as casualties or aren’t retreating at the end of the last turn, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective worth 2 Victory Points.

·           The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Firewing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

 

·           The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.

 

I hope this helps.

[The Observer]

Okay, work's done and I see there is quite some feedback! I've decided to put each specific response into spoilers just so that we save some pagespace - my answers/questions/thoughts/whathaveyou are coloured in each time.

 

Cadmus Tyro

 

Spoiler

Ok, so the first thing I’m going say, and you’re not going to like this, is that your legion is in an incredibly privileged position. I get that some of the rules are less competitive, but that is something that is common to almost all legions.

The Alpha legion are my main force, headhunters lack synergy and are overcosted, lernaeans have odd mixed weapon options. I could argue the headhunter leviathanal is unusable. But non of that stops me using those options, in fact one of my most enjoyable games was using headhunters and their RoW, I lost by virtue of the victory conditions, but the game was so immersive and fluffy, that didn’t matter.

 

Speaking as an Alpha Legion player myself - yes, the XXth legion has its fair share of issues. However, I'd say that this is comparing oranges to turnips. The Headhunter Leviathal "merely" suffers from having a poorly costed troops choice (One that I have found works better as a CC unit than a Ranged unit - oddly enough) and would profit a lot from gaining Seekers as potential troops too, it does not exactly compare to stuff that is as poorly worded and/or thought out as the Dreadwing and Stormwing RoW for example.

    To quote ShadowCore67 from the tactica thread "Storm of War's list building restriction essentially forces you to take 6 tactical/assault squads, just so you can only take 4 other units." This is compounded further by the issue that only the Centurions attached to your compulsory troops do not occupy a slot in your FoC - which means that whenever you want to take another tactical/assault squad and be able to give it orders - the reason you are taking the RoW, I presume - it needs to be at full strength and it needs a Centurion - who will immediately swallow up the freed up slot in your FoC. The issue there than becomes that you either A.) have a massive army of bodies with access to orders but literally nothing else or B.) you need to take token Assault/Tactical squads in order to gain access to other selections in your army, which is a massive detriment considering how much points are being sunk in here.

   The Dreadwing RoW is poor not in the sense of what it provides by itself, but by how it limits fluffy and reasonable choices due to the way it is written. As mentioned, Marduk Sedras - an Eskaton of the Dreadwing and pretty much "our" HQ for Dreadwing lists in terms of fluff - can only confer his rule Ancient of War to units that begin play within 6" of him - but he can only do that if he isn't embarked in a vehicle, which he must be if he is run in an Eskaton Imperative list. The other issue being that rapiers with quad launchers - another fluffy, if powerful choice - are unavailable to the list because technically their crew (which is infantry) would need to be embarked in a vehicle too. Here, the issue is less power-level and more just poor interplay of pieces that should, by all accounts of fluff, make sense when put together.

   The Unbroken Vow, I don't even know where to start - it's a massively worse version of PotL that essentially hands out free VP to your enemy like they are free samples.

   I've played plenty of games with sub-par choices just because I enjoyed the fluff and the image (Alpha Legion Headhunter Leviathal, Iron Warrior Recon Company, Blackshields of any variety etc.) but the issue here - and this is a subjective issue, yes, but one I have seen several times online - is that the crunch gets in the way of the fluff in quite a significant way. So while I understand what you are getting at here, I don't exactly think that it is a fair comparison as breadth of choice doesn't do much for me if the choices are poorly worded, overcosted or unfairly limiting comparative to what they give you.

I too long for a day when all options to every legion are fully useable, and balanced, but the history of 30k (and its haphazard support) and the complexity of rule writing suggests this will never happen.

 

Oh I absolutely agree with you there - GW or FW will never give us fully balanced rules. That's why my friends and I got so interested in Homebrewing - none of us are really tournament players or get to play much outside of our group so we usually find something to agree on and if we happen to "play outside our turf" we also all have armies that we can field with rules as is and be happy (I wouldn't take my homebrew DA to play someone I don't know at Warhammerworld for example, I've got an Alpha Legion and Blood Angels army for that).

Onto the rules, bravo for taking the time to consider the improvements. I’m not going to comment on everything, I’m not a DA player, but I will make a comment on a few obvious issues.

Generally, small rules tweaks are all that’s needed to move something from being terrible to viable. So try making a small adjustment first and then play test the outcome.

The obvious issues for me are:

1. Eskaton imperative, this is a fluffy and useable RoW without any tweaks. The fact you have to all take dedicated transports is actually a balancing factor. Giving access to rad and phosphex whilst fluffy, encroaches on the death guard RoW. It’s not needed. Your basic troops (destroyers etc) already have access, avoiding the tactical tax is advantage enough.

 

-As outlined above, I agree that it is a decently playable RoW, but it does interact poorly with pieces that should be playable and viable with a Dreadwing list as per the fluff. I've been mulling however over your suggestions concerning the grenades (just so you know, Rad grenades are granted by the Eskaton Imperative as is, I just toned down the points slightly) and I might limit Phosphex bombs to Independent characters instead of characters in general - that way the fluff is still there but it doesn't encroach quite as hard on the DG The Reaping RoW.

2. Veteran tactical squads in all RoW as compulsory troops, again unnecessary. It invalidates “chosen duty” and “pride of the legion”, it takes away from the flavour of your DA RoW. Pride of the legions only real benefit is to put vets and terminators into the troops slot, at the cost of potential lost VPs. Chosen duty requires you to run a delegatus, so no LoW and your probably only going to run it at low points levels. There’s nothing to balance the inclusion of veterans in each RoW.

 

Good points again - been thinking about that. Removing them from the Dreadwing Protocol will definitely happen, since Interemptors and Destroyers are quite enough as you already mention. Firewing this'll probably happen too as Seekers are nifty as is anyways - but I am hesitant to keep them out of the Stormwing, both due to the fluff outline in Crusade as well as the limitation (i.e. ban) placed on Infiltration and Deepstriking. So essentially, you'd be trading bodies (tacticals/assault marines) for versatility (access to specialist weapons, combi weapons and power weapons). Lots to think about, but definitely something to revisit!

3. Wide access to AP2 initiative CC weapons. Again this detracts from other legions unique ability (BA/WS). AP2 initiative CC weapons should be a rarity, to those legions who posses them it adds character they are both famed for their martial skill and speed in combat.

 

-Good point. As in my response further up the thread, I think that cutting them out might just be the best way to go about this. It was an attempt to make the crow's beak hammers from 40k fit into 30k as something unique but I think keeping them as simple thunder hammers might be a better idea at this point - particularly seeing as Stasis Shells for combi grenade Launchers are still a thing and the tweaked LA(DA) takes care of most of my worries.

It’s widely supported that the DA were masters of all forms of legionary warfare. But I still believe that individual legions that focus on a particular variant of war would outperform them. IH with their tanks and mechanicum ties, DG with their predilection for rad and phosphex, WS for their rapid strike tactics etc etc.

I think the current DA rules represent that reasonably well, access to a lot of options, at a cost.

 

I agree with you on this in terms of fluff - but sadly what was delivered to us in terms of Legion Rules and Rites of War just seems like an entirely different pair of shoes to me. The Stormwing and Deathwing RoWs are downright unplayable, the Dreadwing RoW fudges with what should be sensible and logical choices in terms of both fluff and crunch, and the Hexagrammaton rules are very poor both in terms of point balancing and in terms of what they actually do. Again, no reason to pick Scion of the Deathwing (A single reroll for your sergeant for 25p that does nothing for the unit attached - which is one of the main points of taking the Scions rule) when you have Scions of the Firewing available (25p for Hatred (Characters) for your character and attached unit). Scion of the Ironwing (a 25p upgrade) is pretty much fully negated by Extra Armour (a ubiquitous 5p upgrade). Scions of the Stormwing gives snapshots at BS2 (It's okay, I guess, but is it 25p good?). Finally, the Scions of the Ravenwing upgrade - weirdly enough - is least useful to bikes of any variety. As is, I don't think that our Legion rules and RoWs in Crusade represent the DA that we read about in the fluff - like at all. The units do! I love what they did with almost all of the units!

    DA to me - as progenitors of most forms of legion warfare - should receive unique spins on preexisting forms of Warfare; which is why I like the Ironwing and Ravenwing Protocols from book 6. Both felt like unique variations of both generic and legion-specific Rites of War - not better or worse, really. They felt like sidegrades - if that makes sense? This was kind of the aim here but obviously a lot more filing is needed.

Hope that helps in some way,
 

Helps heaps! I didn't respond to everything in particular but I've taken note of everything and I'll be sure to make use of lots of your suggestions! Thanks a bunch! Also, I just wanna make sure to say that even if I disagreed several times here, that does not mean a dismissal of your suggestions and ideas - it's more of a game of tug of war between fluff, the OG Protocols and balancing, really.

 

 

Varyn

 

Spoiler

I intended to provide some feedback and suggestions and having read over the details I honestly couldn't have put it any better than Cadmus!

 

Awesome! Then I think you might find some responses in the above spoiler that may be of interest to you - thanks for chiming in!

I think the biggest takeaway is Cadmus' comment that small tweaks are the way forward. This is echoed in the 2019 FAQ with the tweaks to some of the older units; the changes are relatively small but make the units feel a lot more viable.

Full agreement there - the 2019 FAQ made Destroyers actually viable and I am eternally grateful for that. Cadmus' and your's suggestion concerning small tweaks in conjunction with Metalipticas own homebrews will definitely see reworks closer to the OG RoWs spawned as blueprints and for playtesting.

I feel that a lot of the problems that are trying to be addressed are the result of comparisons against some of the perceived imbalances in other legions, which leads players to feel that their own legion has been overlooked or left behind.

 

I can't speak to everyone's experience but coming from someone who has played 6-7 legions of various powerlevels (BA, AL, IW, NL pre-crusade, EC and Blackshields) I've never had as frustrating of a time engaging with legion-specific RoWs or LA rules than with the Dark Angels (Again, see the Cadmus spoiler above for some inconsistencies that arise from legion-internal RoW writing. Deathwing, Dreadwing and Stormwing inconsistencies have little to do with comparisons to other legions; they have issues all of their own - in addition, Corswain does not seemingly profit from his LA, which as far as I can tell is a first in the Horus Heresy). I don't think that the DA have been overlooked per se, but it feels like either there has not been any or enough playtesting and that some things have been poorly thought out. Wouldn't be the first time - FW is notorious for its editing and we've had power-level slips in the "recent" past too (See Legio Custodes and Thousand Sons for example) - and while FAQs usually adress some issues, I just can't be bothered to wait an eternity for an FAQ that won't be as extensive as I and some others feel it should be. I don't expect every RoW to be The Days of Revelation or The Court of the Crimson King, but a baseline form of playability should be given - and a lack thereof to me is evident considering how few actual lists I have seen posted online and with how many DA collectors on IG I have talked to who just flat out refuse to play their DAs just because their rules are so confusing. But that's kind of the fun of homebrewing, right? Get a couple of heads together and start fiddling and filing until something likeable emerges.

 

That said, thanks for coming around - I really do value your contribution and it's good to see Cadmus critique supported; I'll be sure to look at it more than just twice

 

Metaliptica

 

Spoiler

In an attempt to give you ideas and feedback : this is the custom rules we are using at my LGS when playing DA. YOu'll notice some similarities as I suspect we did gather thoughts and ideas from the same place.

LA rules:

· Legiones Astartes: Units with this special rulke may always attempt to Regroup at their normal Leadership value, regardless of casualties.

· An Order of Knights: When fighting in an assault with a close combat weapon and when fighting a model with an equal Weapon Skill, a model with this special rule hits on a 3+.

· Scions of the Hexagrammaton: Eligible models with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule may select additional options from both the Scions of the Hexagrammaton or Scion of the Hekatonystika section.

· Inviolate and Alone: Models with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule may never benefit from the Leadership characteristic or any Leadership related bonus or special rule from any model which does not also have the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) or Sire of the Dark Angels special rules.



Both Scion rules now cost 15 points and are as follow (Hekatonystica options remain unchainged):

· Scion of the Stormwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of make Snap Shots at a Ballistic Skill of 2.

· Scion of the Deathwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of have the Feel no Pain (6+) special rule.

· Scion of the Dreadwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of Have the Move Through Cover special rule.

· Scion of the Ironwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of gain the Rending special rule when attacking a vehicle.

· Scion of the Firewing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of have the Precision Strike special rule.

· Scion of the Ravenwing: A model with this special rule and all models in the unit with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule it has joined or is part of gain the Acute Senses and Night Vision special rule.


Legion wargear and wargear prices is unchainged


Concerning the RoW:

The Dreadwing Protocol:

Effects:

· Dread Legion: Legion Destroyer Squad and Dreadwing Interemptors may be taken as Troops choices in a primary Detachment using this Rite of War.

· Marshall of the Eskaton: All enemy models within 12” and that can draw line of sight to an Independent Character with the Scion of the Dreadwing of Sire of the Dark Angels special rule have their Leadership value reduced by 1. This effect does not apply to units that are immune to the effect of the Fear special rule. This effect is not cumulative, and any given enemy unit may only be affected by it once regardless of how many models with this special rule are within range and line of sight.

· Masters of the Blackened Earth: Before any models are deployed, the Dark Angels player may choose to place up to three Eskaton markers anywhere in the playing area that is 6” from any table edge. The area within 6” of an Eskaton marker, including terrain pieces within the zone of this effect is counted as Dangerous terrain in addition to any other effects for the duration of the game.

· Salt the Earth, Burn the Sky: All Infantry units with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule that include at least one model with the Scion of the Dreadwing special rule, and all Independent Characters with the scion of the Dreadwing special rule may take the following additional options:
- Any model in the unit may be equipped with rad grenades …………………………………………………………………………………………………..+10 points per model

- Any model in the unit may be equipped with stasis grenades ………………………………………………………………………………………………..+20 points per model
- All models with the option to select a Heavy weapon may instead take a plasma incinerator .………………………………..………………….+15 points per model

- All models with the option to select a Heavy weapon may instead take a plasma incinerator with suspensor web………………..……….+20 points per model

Limitations:

· All compulsory troops choices in a detachment must include at least one model with the scion of the Dreadwing special rule.

· If the enemy has any units that are not falling back in your deployment zone at the end of the game then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

· The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Dreadwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

· All infantry units and Independent Characters included in this army without the Scion of the Dreadwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule must be deployed embarked within a Transport vehicle, including those placed into Reserves.

· The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.


The Ironwing Protocol:

Effects:

· Iron Brethren: All Infantry units that include at least one model with the Scion of the Ironwing special rule gain the Fearless special rule during the turn they Disembarked from a transport.

· Marshall of the Steel Fist: Every time an Independent character with the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule Roll on the Vehicle damage table, Crew Shaken results apply the effect of Crew Stunned instead.

· Armored Assault: All vehicles with the Tank type in a detachment using this Rite of War automatically ignore the first Dangerous Terrain test they failed.

· Goliaths of War: All Dreadnoughts (of any type) included in detachments that use this Rite of War have the Fear and Tank Hunters special rules.

Limitations:

· All infantry units in the army must begin the game deployed in a transporting vehicle with the Tank type that has sufficient Transport capacity to carry them

· At least half of the units in the army must consist entirely of Vehicles with the Tank type.

· Should all the tanks in the force be destroyed in the battle, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

· The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

· The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.


The Stormwing Protocol:

Effects:

· Masters of the Storm: All Infantry units with the Legiones Astartes (Dark Angels) special rule that include at least one model with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule, and all Independent Characters with the scion of the Stormwing special rule may take the following additional options:
- Independent Character may upgrade their armor to Hardened Armor…………………………………………………….……………………….…….+5 points
- All models from a squad may be equipped with Hardened Armor .………………………………..………………………………………….……….….+25 points

· Marshall of War: Independent character with the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule gain the Interception special rule.

· Field Maneuvers: each turn, one unit may come out of Reserve automatically and gains the outflank special rule

· Hold the Line: When a unit with at least one model with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule did not move in its precedent movement phase, it automatically pass any Fear and Pinning test.

Limitations:

· All Compulsory Troop choices must include at least one model with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule.

· At least half of the units your army must be Infantry.

· Should all of your Scoring units with the Scion of the Stormwing special rule in the force be destroyed in the battle, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

· The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Ironwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

· The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.


The Deathwing Protocol:

Effects:

· The Hammer of Caliban: Legion Veteran Squads and Legion Terminator Squads may be selected as Troops choices in this detachment.

· Marshall of the Unbroken Vow: Independent character with the Scion of the Deathwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule add +1 to the wound value used to determine which side has won a given close combat. This effect is not cumulative, and any given enemy unit may only be affected by it once regardless of how many models with this special rule are within range and line of sight.

· Shock and Awe: Units comprised of models equipped with any kind of Terminator Armor may be equipped with teleportation transponders for +15 points.

· The Unbroken Vow: Models with the Scion of the Deathwing special rule add +1 to their Feel no Pain roll while in a challenge (to a maximum of 2+).

Limitations:

· All Compulsory Troop choices must include at least one model with the Scion of the Deathwing special rule.

· Should all of your Legion Terminator and Legion Veteran Squad with the Scion of the Deathwing special rule in the force be destroyed in the battle, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective worth 2 Victory Points.

· The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Deathwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

· The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.


The Ravenwing Protocol

Effects:

· Iron Knights: Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadrons and Legion Outriders Squads may be taken as Troops choices in a primary Detachment using this Rite of War.

· Marshall of the Seeker’s Arrow: Independent Characters with the Scion of the Ravenwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule ignore the effect of defensive grenades and the effect of difficult/dangerous terrain when charging at enemy units.

· Search and Destroy: Jet Bikes and Skimmers (including those taken as mounts by Independent Characters) may leave the table in their own movement phase and be placed into Ongoing Reserves. These units re-enter play using the Outflank special rule

· Graceful, Unerring and Deadly: Units that include at least one model with the Scion of the Ravenwing special rule may add +2 to one of these each turn: Charge rolls or Turbo-boost distances.

Limitations:

· All compulsory troops choices in a detachment must include at least one model with the scion of the Ravenwing special rule.

· If the enemy has any units that are not falling back in your deployment zone at the end of the game then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective.

· The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Ravenwing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

· Your army can only include Vehicles with the Fast or Flyer type.

· The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.


The Firewing Protocol:

Effects:

· Decapitation Force: Legion Assault Squads and Firewing Enigmatus Cabal may be taken as Troops choices in a primary Detachment using this Rite of War.

· Marshall of the Serpent’s Bane: Independent Characters with the Scion of the Firewing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule make Precision Strike on a roll of 5+.

· Priority Target Kill List: At the end of Deployment, after infiltrators have been set up, nominate 3 Units with the HQ, Elite or Lord of War role. all Units that include at least one model with the Scion of the Firewing special rule may add 1 to the wound roll (to a maximum of 2+) when targeting designated units

· Forward Deployment Protocol: At the beginning of the game, you can nominate up to 2 Units. These units (and any transport they are embarked in) gain the Scout special rule.

Limitations:

· All compulsory troops choices in a detachment must include at least one model with the scion of the Firewing special rule

· Should any of the designated targets from the Priority Target Kill List did not get removed from play as casualties or aren’t retreating at the end of the last turn, then the enemy counts as having scored an additional Secondary Objective worth 2 Victory Points.

· The Army Warlord must have the Scion of the Firewing or Sire of the Dark Angels special rule.

· The Army may not include a Fortification Detachment or Allied Detachment.


I hope this helps.

 

This is great, thanks a bunch man! I've logged all of it and I'll be sure to test everything out with my group. It's so interesting to see how some ideas are nearly identical while other bits and bobs have diverged completely. Particularly the changes to the Stormwing RoW have caught my eye.

 

 

Again, thanks to everyone for their suggestions and ideas - they've all been noted and will be taken in account for the homebrew 1.1!

[Brother Sutek]

As long as Deathwing gain access to teleportation for their terminators I'm happy.

[Cadmus Tyro]

I agree that you can’t compare the alpha legion “deficiencies” directly to the DA ones. I think the idea behind mentioning them was to help empathise with the issue and also to give context to the idea that rule writing is not a new issue. But if you’ve played a lot of HH, you already know that! I don’t think comparison with other legions is helpful in any context.

Ive had a think about the deathwing RoW, and I fully agree that it’s unplayable as it is. 3VP per turn if your opponent holds the central objective is far to punishing without the ability to meaningfully hold the objective turn one. Games based on objective turn scoring can be fast paced and bias certain builds, RG and AL have the distinct advantage here as they can set up on any objective.

However, I do like the idea behind the mechanic, it changes the priority of the game and adds another unique dimension. I think it represents a “Forlorn Hope” mission quite well, you have Pride of the legion to represent the Deathwing in a more regular deployment.

I think it needs adapting, and I would do this in two ways (remember my point about small tweaks). First by addressing the deathwing scion rule. I would keep it the same cost and benefit but, I would suggest it also gives the unit that the character is attached to teleportation transponders if the character and unit are equipped with terminator armour, for no additional cost. That way, you gain access to the teleportation rule outside of that RoW, and it encourages you to build more towards terminators.

Secondly, I would adapt the RoW to include a rule that allows up to half of your deathwing scion terminator units to arrive from reserve turn one (via teleportation) in the same way the drop pod assault rule works. This gives you a strong ability to take and hold the central objective turn one, when combined with other units to remove artillery (or anything that poses risk with AP2) and the benefits from attached apothecaries and FNP etc you have a much better chance of holding the centre.

Another option would be to also reduce the number of VP the opponent gets for holding the central objective. But you might find that the above alterations are enough to balance the scenario, and it lends more of a sense of desperation for you to hold the objective. It might be worth play testing the first two alterations and seeing how it runs. The aim is to create a balanced scenario for both players, but also keeping the original theme of the RoW.


Cadmus

[Volth]

3. Wide access to AP2 initiative CC weapons. Again this detracts from other legions unique ability (BA/WS). AP2 initiative CC weapons should be a rarity, to those legions who posses them it adds character they are both famed for their martial skill and speed in combat.

 

Are you mixing up Dark Angels with Space Wolves? Last time I checked the Calibanite War Blade was AP3.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Yes they are, but this thread is a discussion about new play test rules.

[Volth]

My bad. I can't really add to the discussion as I like to stick to official rules no matter how broken they are. Build-a-dex gets eventually to the point that you own an army thats hell expensive and hardly playable outside your gaming group. That said, the Deathwing mess really is a point I'd make an exception for. When to house-rule something about DA it's this.

[Brother Sutek]

I agree that the changes should be as minimal as possible. The object isn't to make the Rite or unit without flaws or an obvious 1+ pick but to make the list as a whole fit the fluff and be balanced both internally and externally. I (as an example) would love to see hvy bolter squads used more often and not just volkite etc. Other than the old Acid rounds I didn't see that. Was that upgrade too strong? Yes but the new version doesn't make hvy bolters too exciting IMO so unless going against bikes or Mechanicus they aren't going to be used by me. That being said no-one will complain about the amount or rolling dice or that they are OP anymore. I'd still prefer if they had gotten rending instead but that's me.