Why only the Milky Way?

[Subtleknife]

 

 

I was always under the impression from old lore that ftl travel was not possible far from the milky way due to a psychic darkness/lack of astronomican.Furthermore, look at the troops under the command of Solar Macharius, they crumbled in fear at the prospect of exploring without the emperors light and refused to follow him.

To be fair that's because it's meant to be a literal parallel of Alexander the Great's troops mutinying against him and refusing to go any further when they got to India.

I know lol...

 

It still stands as a reason though because the astronomicon does not cover the entire milky way. As such without a way to travel ftl then its going to take a hell of a long time to get to another galaxy.

[Vermintide]

For all we know, DAoT humans did travel to other galaxies. Or, perhaps more accurately, are still travelling there on generation ships or under cryostasis as the events of the 41st millennium unfold. The nearest galaxy to the Milky Way is 25,000 light years away, so even travelling at light speed, they'd still barely have made it half way by the present day of the setting.

 

Of course, even when they arrive, the distance involved is so incomprehensibly vast that communication and interaction is effectively impossible and meaningless. If you look at the list of "nearby" galaxies, the distances are measured in millions of light years. But it's probably the closest thing to the possibility of a "happy ending" for humanity this setting offers.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Vermintide

[Ryltar Thamior]

 

I think making the galaxy a "closed space" mostly is also a way of upping the stakes - we're fighting over this finite number of inhabitable planets and moons, if we destroy these, there's nowhere to run to

 

^This.

 

Also, I think the closest real-world analogy would be the ancient Polynesian cultures, but magnified to literally astronomical scales. You know how big the Pacific Ocean is? Answer: REALLY FREAKIN' BIG. Imagine crossing that in canoes*. Now magnify everything about that thought process only you have to bring the air to breath with you as well. And that's what it would be like trying to go from one galaxy to the next. The only craft even feasible to make the attempt would be an Eldar Craftworld, and even then it would be a stretch.

 

...really puts the Tyranid threat in perspective

 

I imagine that the Tyranid invasion is only 1/2 its true size, maybe even only a 1/3 of what it was when it left its previous galaxy since it cannibalized its own biomass to make the journey. 

 

 

*historically it was more sophisticated then that, but for the sake of this convo I'm making a point

 

As applies the Polynesian navigation of the Pacific point ... not quite what you were saying, but I'll run with it in a different manner - 

 

Apart from the fact that yes, yes it turns out that the Polynesians actually did manage to make it all across the Pacific to the Americas (recently confirmed via archaeogenetic analysis of some Polynesian populations showing an infusion of Indigenous American DNA a little less than a thousand years ago iirc) ... 

 

... the thing about the Pacific is that especially in the eastern waters thereof, there's really not a lot there. Like .. *really* not a lot there. This therefore means that an awful lot *more* happens in direct proximity to those bits that *are* there - or, at least, we tell more stories about what's going on there in those places rather than the 'empty spaces' that are the otherwise relatively inhospitable ocean. And we tell far *more* stories about the more familiar and more heavily travelled spaces that are largely to the west of the international date line. 

 

As applies the Galaxy, therefore, we feel the whole place is significantly smaller than it actually is. Because instead of the whole Pacific Ocean, we only focus on i) the landmasses in said ocean; ii) usually disproportionately upon a much smaller quotient of even those where most of the 'history happens'. And the total land area of i) is obviously quite a small area - even if there's dozens upon dozens of atolls, small islands, or even relatively large islands that most people will never have heard of [or, for that matter *would* never have heard of but for a World War Two battle occurring thereupon or nearby].

 

I suppose where I'm going with this is .. further west again - Micronesia has ~2,100 islands within its general sphere. That's ... quite a lot of islands. Some of which *are* actually semi-prominent in the perception of a fair few people, because as noted above .. famous World War Two occurrences (or for  that matter, Andersen Air Force Base being situated on Guam even post-War). 

 

And yet even with them two thousand plus islands plus all the other islands of the various regions of the Pacific (there's approximately *TEN THOUSAND* in Polynesia), I'm pretty sure that to most people, the Pacific looks pretty empty [and it's not entirely incorrect]; with some probably presuming that there's 'really' only a few or a few dozen.

 

The Galaxy's a big place. And oddly enough, there's *still* room even after ten thousand plus years for new areas, new swathes of inhabitable worlds, new xenos cultures [e.g. the Tau and their various satrap-client-subject-peoples], and new Crusades or Explorator Fleets to rampage 'cross the stars. 

 

We often forget just how much 'space' there is between inhabited Imperial worlds on the map. 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

@Vermintide. Did they? It is the first time I hear about that. A bit weird, considering they used similar tech to the Imperium so we are back to question "is it possible to use warp travel outside our galaxy?".

Edited January 19, 2021 by Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla

[WARMASTER_]

Some great points above... especially about not being able to travel much further than the astronomican, it feels like the only answer needed to justify it at all really

 

Also have to remember that while some people might feel the galaxy is getting “small” GW are very aware of its scale and how really unknown most of it is.

 

I saw quite a good interview with Stu Black (Head of Warhammer 40K) and he was discussing how few one million worlds really is compared to the actual number of planets in the Milky Way galaxy, the imperium really is still a spec of dust in the grand scale of things. He’s also went of to say that they want to make the galaxy feel it’s true size as they’re aware some peoples perceptions are being boxed in

 

A good example might be people assuming most of the Ultima segmentum consists of just Ultramar where as really the 500 Worlds are a tiny portion

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't know if it's mentioned, but in Book 9: Crusade, the Dark Angels legion do venture a bit outside the galaxy. They go to a cluster of stars a way out that contains human settlement.

 

As said though, another galaxy doesn't add anything to the setting. From a simpler, pragmatic reason, one galaxy can fit on a page or two on a map.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think the feeling of it being small is tied to the newer events. When you have a Galaxy spanning event like the rift then by definition it has to affect everything in the Galaxy. If everything is being affected by this one thing it’s naturally going to make the setting seem a bit smaller than it really is. Now, technically, not everything in the Galaxy may be affected but as we mainly see things from an imperial perspective, then Everything is affected for all practical purposes.

 

For example it’s very hard to imagine a lot of the events/stories/novels that were written before 8th edition being able to happen now without being radically changed by the events of the rift. That’s naturally going to make it feel like a smaller setting.

 

I think the key to making the setting seem larger again is to have some stories/narrative that is happening completely independently of the main events and characters. Then the Galaxy can start to feel larger again.

[Snazzy]

For all we know, DAoT humans did travel to other galaxies. Or, perhaps more accurately, are still travelling there on generation ships or under cryostasis as the events of the 41st millennium unfold. The nearest galaxy to the Milky Way is 25,000 light years away, so even travelling at light speed, they'd still barely have made it half way by the present day of the setting.

 

Of course, even when they arrive, the distance involved is so incomprehensibly vast that communication and interaction is effectively impossible and meaningless. If you look at the list of "nearby" galaxies, the distances are measured in millions of light years. But it's probably the closest thing to the possibility of a "happy ending" for humanity this setting offers.

 

The distance is less the issue than that it is empty space between galaxies.

[Vermintide]

@Vermintide. Did they? It is the first time I hear about that. A bit weird, considering they used similar tech to the Imperium so we are back to question "is it possible to use warp travel outside our galaxy?".

We don't have any evidence, but I was speculating that there's the possibility. I have always under the impression that DAoT tech was more advanced than it is in the age of the Imperium, much of that knowledge having been lost and thus why it is so sought after.

 

I was also working with the assumption that warp travel outside the galaxy itself is either much more difficult or impossible, based on the idea that warp travel requires psychic energy and thus the presence of life.

 

Just something fun to think about, I think.

 

The distance is less the issue than that it is empty space between galaxies.

Well, if we are working on the previously stated assumption that it being empty space makes this setting's FTL method impossible, yeah, it rules that possibility out entirely.

 

However, to low-tech travel it's not an obstacle- The thing about space flight, in theory, is that in the frictionless vacuum of space, you maintain momentum indefinitely; and it only takes a relatively small amount of force in order to accelerate to speed because your acceleration would effectively be infinite. If you could build a ship with a self-sustaining ecosystem, people could theoretically live on that ship over generations until it reaches its destination, which I think is just a fascinating idea and opportunity for storytelling. The society that emerges after a 25,000 year long journey would be radically different to the one that set off.

 

But again, that's why the distance is relevant. If it's not possible to make the journey FTL, or transmit information FTL, it would take thousands upon thousands of years. It may as well be another universe.

 

Incidentally this stuff is why I hated (HATED) the Mass Effect: Andromeda game. Trash writing in a series that had previously treated the concepts of space travel pretty well.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Vermintide

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s worth pointing out Ultramar is farther from Caliban than from The edge of the galaxy to the closest galaxy.

[Vermintide]

Given FTL is possible within the galaxy, they may as well be next door for all narrative intents and purposes.

[Marshal Rohr]

FTL travel is not possible, using the warp is not faster than light even if the outcome is arriving somewhere faster than light could arrive. Humanities ability to travel great distances is restricted to the Astronomicon, which isn’t visible at the edges of the galaxy, much less beyond the edges of the galaxy.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

FTL is possible, Tyranids do it, and noone knows how.

[Marshal Rohr]

FTL is possible, Tyranids do it, and noone knows how.

News to me, when did that happen? Is it a post-5th retcon?

Edited January 20, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Sword Brother Adelard]

They seem to be able to distort gravity when away from star systems to achieve really fast speeds, nothing on warp drive, but pretty damn fast all the same. They don't use the warp for travelling.

 

I imagine the Necrons also have FTL? They don't use the warp either do they?

[Brother Kraskor]

Is the webway not FTL? 

[Vermintide]

FTL travel is not possible, using the warp is not faster than light even if the outcome is arriving somewhere faster than light could arrive. Humanities ability to travel great distances is restricted to the Astronomicon, which isn’t visible at the edges of the galaxy, much less beyond the edges of the galaxy.

... Not being funny mate, but if you arrive somewhere faster than light could arrive... That's faster than light travel. This is just being pedantic over terminology.

 

Travelling faster than the speed of light is straight up impossible according the the laws of physics as we know them, so any reference to "FTL" in fiction or speculative science necessarily involves some cheat or short-cut that's not technically travelling faster than the speed of light, but achieves the same outcome.

 

Hence why every sci-fi universe you care to name has some kind of warp, hyperdrive, wormholes, etc.

[Marshal Rohr]

They seem to be able to distort gravity when away from star systems to achieve really fast speeds, nothing on warp drive, but pretty damn fast all the same. They don't use the warp for travelling.

 

I imagine the Necrons also have FTL? They don't use the warp either do they?

Necrons have those Dolmen Gate things from BFG and advanced teleportation, so they aren’t really ‘traveling’ at all I guess. Bending gravity is one of those theorized alternatives to FTL so I guess that makes sense.

 

As for the webway, it’s also not FTL, it’s moving at sublight speeds through an advanced trans dimensional network.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Brother Kraskor]

 

FTL travel is not possible, using the warp is not faster than light even if the outcome is arriving somewhere faster than light could arrive. Humanities ability to travel great distances is restricted to the Astronomicon, which isn’t visible at the edges of the galaxy, much less beyond the edges of the galaxy.

... Not being funny mate, but if you arrive somewhere faster than light could arrive... That's faster than light travel. This is just being pedantic over terminology.

 

Travelling faster than the speed of light is straight up impossible according the the laws of physics as we know them, so any reference to "FTL" in fiction or speculative science necessarily involves some cheat or short-cut that's not technically travelling faster than the speed of light, but achieves the same outcome.

 

Hence why every sci-fi universe you care to name has some kind of warp, hyperdrive, wormholes, etc.

 

 

+1, we're asking a lore question about 40k not the semantics of actual physics. Start at point A, get to point B before light does = FTL travel in layman's terms! 

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s not really pedantic, the warp can spit someone out before they left which is not something even things moving faster than light could do. You can slow time down by manipulating or being manipulated by large gravitational fields, but you can’t move time backwards. In 40K things can and do appear two places at once and then pull themselves along to their new location, as in you can leave Terra and arrive at Fenris before you left Terra, but you cannot then not leave Terra and exist simultaneously. Ghazghkull is the best example of this, showing up in new warzones while still being present in other warzones and then leaving that warzone to show up where he already is. 40K is a deterministic universe. Edited January 20, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Snazzy]

I hate to say it, but there may be humanity in another galaxy already.  They would just be descendants of travels from the pre-Age of Strife.

 

I agree with the concept that restricting the stakes to the Milky Way creates peril.  If humanity could travel to other galaxies it would suggest they could run to the far corners of the universe.  Being stuck in one galaxy means it is stand and fight.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

They seem to be able to distort gravity when away from star systems to achieve really fast speeds, nothing on warp drive, but pretty damn fast all the same. They don't use the warp for travelling.

 

I imagine the Necrons also have FTL? They don't use the warp either do they?

I think that like with Necrons' ships  it is nowhere stated whether they travel at FTL speed. Necron ships are likewise said to be incredibly fast and even in the newer fluff cross quickly great distances without Dolmen Gates, but that's it. In theory, IF inertialess drives are still a thing and IF their name should be taken seriously, they have FTL technology, but these are huge ifs and lore is not consistent describing how Necron ships appear on the battlefield (as I recall in some cases they seem to teleport, but i may be wrong).

 

As for DAoT, the basic rules of travel were similar: warp + Gellar fields + navigators. The technology was certainly more refined and effective but I can't see any fundamental difference (aside from calmer warp due to no Eye of Terror/Great Rift).

Edited January 20, 2021 by Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla

[Hrvat]

Once long ago while 40k galaxy was a big thing and distances mattered there used to be a chart of average time/speed distortions for Warp travel. 

I no longer have the original WD but I am sure through avid search you could locate it if you try

 

 

 

TIME DISPLACEMENT

The time differences between real space and warpspace are quite drastic. Not only does time pass at different rates in both kinds of space, but it also passes at very variable rates. Until a ship finishes its jump, it is impossible for a ship's crew to know exactly how long their journey has taken. Time passing in real space is referred to as real time. Time passing on board a spacecraft is referred to as warp time. The relationship between real time and warp time is shown on the chart below.

 

Light Years / Minimum Warp Time / Minimum Warp Time / Minimum Real Time / Maximum Real Time

1 / 2 mins / 6 mins / 43 mins / 4.5 hrs

5 / 7 mins / 30 mins / 3.5 hrs / 1 day

10 / 14 mins / 1 hr / 7 hrs / 2 days

50 / 1.25 hrs / 4.75 hrs / 1.5 days / 9 days

100 / 2.5 hrs / 9.5 hrs / 3 days / 3 weeks

500 / 12 hrs / 2 days / 2 weeks / 3 months

1000 / 1 day / 4 days / 1 month / 6 months

5000 / 5 days / 3 weeks / 5 months / 3 years

 

So, for example, a 100 light year jump will seem to take from 2.5 to 9.5 hours to a spaceship's crew, but between 3 days and 3 weeks will have passed in real space. These times do not include journey times out to and from jump points on the edge of the star systems. It takes from days to weeks of travel at sub-light speeds to reach a drop from the spaceship's starting planet, and a similar time to re-enter the destination system.

 

The Imperium is approximately 75 thousand light years from edge to edge. A journey of this length would take between 75 and 300 days in warp time, and between 6 years and 40 years real time.

 

 

This ensured in the old background why it took Ultramarines 7 years to reach Terra during the HH without needing any "side quests". The galaxy was simply that big.

 

 

On top of that Warp travel was and is possible without both navigators and the astronomican and is done by the onboard computer but it is any jump longer than 5 light years is considered to risky. 

 

 

 

One thing that always bothered me even in the old lore was that range of an astronomican is not a circle but a strange elipse with Terra being to the side of one of the centres of the elipse. 

 

[Tyriks]

 

They seem to be able to distort gravity when away from star systems to achieve really fast speeds, nothing on warp drive, but pretty damn fast all the same. They don't use the warp for travelling.

I imagine the Necrons also have FTL? They don't use the warp either do they?

 

I think that like with Necrons' ships  it is nowhere stated whether they travel at FTL speed. Necron ships are likewise said to be incredibly fast and even in the newer fluff cross quickly great distances without Dolmen Gates, but that's it. In theory, IF inertialess drives are still a thing and IF their name should be taken seriously, they have FTL technology, but these are huge ifs and lore is not consistent describing how Necron ships appear on the battlefield (as I recall in some cases they seem to teleport, but i may be wrong).

 

As for DAoT, the basic rules of travel were similar: warp + Gellar fields + navigators. The technology was certainly more refined and effective but I can't see any fundamental difference (aside from calmer warp due to no Eye of Terror/Great Rift).

Necrons do still have FTL in the form of inertialess drives, in addition to the Dolmen Gates.

[Ryltar Thamior]

As applies the Astronomican ... I am trying to remember if I once read something about there being relay stations or local extenders for it. If it existed, it'd be in a 90s issue of White Dwarf (and therefore rather before the concept of wifi routers let alone extenders were a common thing); and it's entirely possible that I'm misremembering. 

If such a concept *did* exist , they'd likely still be hugely technologically and manpower intensive to run, and almost certainly beyond the ability of the current Imperium to construct. [...er ... with the exception of the strange shenanigans one Belisarius Cawl appears to be able to come up with and then bring into more full-scale production]; so would therefore not be feasible to attempt to build 'stepping stones' out beyond the current Light . [and in any case, would likely require some large-scale thing to build *upon* such as a planet, so wouldn't be hugely conducive to extra-galactic 'island hopping' due to the relative dearth of any 'islands'] 

Having said all of that, and speaking of Cawl ... another possibility which might exist are the other Pharos-esque devices he's supposedly now aware of ; which, per the events of Unremembered Empire, would appear to be capable of replicating the Astronomican's effects on a more localized scale (although ideally as part of a network on defined routes rather than acting as a general beacon; although it also seems capable to do both). These obviously aren't really replicable, but would have some probative value for future endeavours. 

Also, in terms of one of the key problems of intergalactic travel being the lack of warp turbulence / currents to actually facilitate such a thing ... Necron technology would, once again, be a potential way to work around this problem. Only not the way you think. 

We know from various stories both 30k and 40k that it's possible for Imperium tech-level groups to build artificial Pylons [akin to those on Cadia ... but interestingly enough, in at least one case, empowered via a constant stream of human psyker sacrifices. Remind you of anything ...?] and to utilize these to 'calm' areas of the warp, which also have the 'displacement effect' of increasing turbulence elsewhere nearby [the metaphor used is one around creating an atmospheric high-pressure system and the warp like winds blowing *away* from it, or something like that]. 

It *may* therefore be possible to construct sufficient pattern of them to get a warp-current blowing out in the desired direction and extend the zone of warp motion in a particular frontier-space of the galaxy out somewhat. Although I really do doubt that it'd make it *anywhere near* far enough to be of use for the purposes of reaching other galaxies.