Why only the Milky Way?

[Domhnall]

As applies the Astronomican ... I am trying to remember if I once read something about there being relay stations or local extenders for it. If it existed, it'd be in a 90s issue of White Dwarf (and therefore rather before the concept of wifi routers let alone extenders were a common thing); and it's entirely possible that I'm misremembering. 

 

 

I'm sure you are right about that, and it would have been waay back in the 90's as I was convinced I had read something like that before you posted. Most likely going back to 2nd edition? 

Though I'd say that since I've not read anything about them since, and the lore has been tightened up a bit since then, it's been left behind. 

[Hrvat]

Wasn't one such amplifier on Volistad in Final Liberation?

[Ryltar Thamior]

 

As applies the Astronomican ... I am trying to remember if I once read something about there being relay stations or local extenders for it. If it existed, it'd be in a 90s issue of White Dwarf (and therefore rather before the concept of wifi routers let alone extenders were a common thing); and it's entirely possible that I'm misremembering. 

 

 

I'm sure you are right about that, and it would have been waay back in the 90's as I was convinced I had read something like that before you posted. Most likely going back to 2nd edition? 

Though I'd say that since I've not read anything about them since, and the lore has been tightened up a bit since then, it's been left behind. 

 

 

 

Wasn't one such amplifier on Volistad in Final Liberation?

Just went and checked the 40k wiki [which, as per usual, some slight caveats may apply]. This is what it had to say:

 

"For the past 2,560 standard Terran years, Volistad has been a planet strongly loyal to the Imperium. Volistad possesses two factors that make it of strategic importance to the Imperium -- Astropaths and Titans. Nestled in the central region of the world called Tollcharin lies a monastery of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The Astronomican is a navagational reference point, essential for safe and successful traversing of the perilous realms of the Warp. The Astropaths' role on Volistad is to provide a stabilising influence at this temperamental Warp site, allowing the Astronomican to perform its function and maintaining relatively safe Warp navigation through this vital corridor of the Segmentum Tempestus. Should the distortions become too great to stabilise, or should any starships find themselves in jeopardy within the Warp, the Volistad Astropaths act as what is effectively a psychic lighthouse.

 

The Astropaths had to cease their "work" once the Orks of WAAAGH! Skroll arrived for fear that the Ork Weirdboyz might discover them and their purpose. Should the Astropaths be destroyed, the Orks could cut off the whole sector from Imperial navigation and entire regions of space would be at their mercy. It would certainly extinguish any hope of long range reinforcements arriving in time to save Volistad."

 

Probably worth noting that the area was subject to a rather major warp-storm prior to this, so that may be why there's a 'stabilization' effect required. 

 

The phrasing's a bit odd, but seems to imply a spectrum of roles - including both i) enabling the main (Terran) Astronomican to be 'seen' by stabilizing the warp in the general vicinity and/or ii) potentially acting *as* a localized Astronomican in the event that ii) is not possible due to interference between where they are and Terra. 

 

Now, of course, we don't know the *range* nor power of the beacon thus created, but it's still interesting and of potential use. Especially as it was likely constructed relatively recently [within the last three millennia or so, given when recontact with the Imperium occurred]  

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I'd imagine a space station or something could be placed between the galaxies and packed with psykers/astropaths to make a beacon but the question is, is it worth it for the imperium to to make such an investment?

Talking about likely millions of personnel, several regiments of guard and skitarii as a garrison, an entire battle group from the navy, hundreds of thousands of psykers, and enough personnel to support all of that.

[Domhnall]

I'd imagine a space station or something could be placed between the galaxies and packed with psykers/astropaths to make a beacon but the question is, is it worth it for the imperium to to make such an investment?

Talking about likely millions of personnel, several regiments of guard and skitarii as a garrison, an entire battle group from the navy, hundreds of thousands of psykers, and enough personnel to support all of that.

 

If you placed enough stop overs on a route, then would I be right in saying having so many people in one area 'create' currents in the warp due to all the emotions in that area, which would 'help' warp travel as well? 

And obviously the increased risk of daemonic activity, as it's generally not going to be happiness and delight at being posted so far out into unknown space! 

Not to mention risking the next galaxy over, as I'm sure the daemons would love some fresh meat as it were... or they'd find something even worse! 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Domhnall

[Ryltar Thamior]

I'd imagine a space station or something could be placed between the galaxies and packed with psykers/astropaths to make a beacon but the question is, is it worth it for the imperium to to make such an investment?

Talking about likely millions of personnel, several regiments of guard and skitarii as a garrison, an entire battle group from the navy, hundreds of thousands of psykers, and enough personnel to support all of that.

 

 

 

I'd imagine a space station or something could be placed between the galaxies and packed with psykers/astropaths to make a beacon but the question is, is it worth it for the imperium to to make such an investment?

Talking about likely millions of personnel, several regiments of guard and skitarii as a garrison, an entire battle group from the navy, hundreds of thousands of psykers, and enough personnel to support all of that.

 

If you placed enough stop overs on a route, then would I be right in saying having so many people in one area 'create' currents in the warp due to all the emotions in that area, which would 'help' warp travel as well? 

And obviously the increased risk of daemonic activity, as it's generally not going to be happiness and delight at being posted so far out into unknown space! 

Not to mention risking the next galaxy over, as I'm sure the daemons would love some fresh meat as it were... or they'd find something even worse! 

 

It would almost certainly not be worth it for the Imperium in M42 to do this on any significant scale ... which would not, perhaps, mean that some Inquisitor or Magos with an agenda might not try a test, or that somebody hadn't taken a stab at such a thing in the past. 

 

Apart from the aforementioned issue of the difficulty in building beacons/lighthouses [the only two we definitively know of being effectively irreplaceable archaeo- or xenos- tech in terms of the Astronomican proper and the Pharos respectively; although I suppose the Pharos machinery might be out there somewhere if it wasn't destroyed per order of Guilliman; and there's definitely other Pharos-like sites aorund the place, so open question as to how easy/difficult it would be to 'transplant' such to another site elswhere in space], the resource issue you mention is pretty significant.

 

Megalomaniac scale efforts *do* happen in 40k from the Imperial side of things [the relocation of the seat of the Ecclesiarch from Terra to Ophelia VII, for example .. and then back again] ; and as we can see from the HH example I'd briefly mentioned above around Pylon construction, it would appear that even at the height of a galaxy-spanning war of cataclysmic scale, some groups are able to marshal the resources to do some otherwise peculiar things. 

 

However, it's still a huge sink of resources at a time when they're sorely needed elsewhere. 

 

Now, as applies the *other* issue ... how do you get all the way out there to park a beacon station in the void between galaxies in the first place. I suppose the idea would be that you'd set up one within our galaxy upon its fringe and push off to the edge of the range of this first extender, etc. - although I"m not sure one way or the other whether there'd be warp-currents to actually move upon to head out beyond the galaxy even if it *were* illuminated. 

 

It's not impossible that bringing a large enough concentration of sentient beings with you would have an impact upon the warp and 'extend' its non-becalmed status with them; although I would suspect that it would have to be a pretty large concentration of them and pretty psychically resonant (either in general or because they're engaged in conduct of a resonant nature ... preferably without causing a realspace-crossover warpstorm or Eye of Terror in the process) in order to accomplish this.

 

And there's still that issue of how you get them out there in the first place to act as an 'inducer' for the currents of the warp to start picking up in that direction. 

 

Generation-ships would be one possibility, sure - although one that would take an awful long time to bear any sort of even vaguely possible fruit. 

 

Also, further issue:

 

If the Tyranids are heading for, variously, Sotha due to the Pharos and then Terra due to the Astronomican ... 

 

then putting a great big shiny thing out in the void between galaxies [which is, of course, where the Tyranids have come from, both as applies the Eastern Fringe and up from below the galactic plane] may prove to be a drastically short-lived experiment in slathering yourself up in bacon-fat and going for a run round the lion enclosure.

 

Although I suppose hypothetically producing a large psychic flare/beacon like that might be of some use in attempting to draw away various adversarial groups *towards* whereever it is. Your mileage and strategic boldness may, of course, vary. 

[Hrvat]

Where is this notion of Warp travel being inhibited outside the galaxy coming from. 

 

I have not been up to date with background since the latest Cadia event and merely just glossed over the whole Guilliman revival thing but as far as I can remember from the old lore currents in the warp exist regardless of the presence of living things since the dimension is still there. What living things cause is turbulence. 

 

Normal Warp is like a calm sea with the currents beneath the surface. Presence of life creates "waves". While lots of life and specific activities make the thing to churn and froth. "Storm" in the Warp happen naturally it is just that emotions make them more common and more powerful. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

People have explained it relatively well in this thread. The warp exists, but away from lived in space, where there are no souls, it's almost inert, and very difficult to sail through.

[templargdt]

(Astronomy nerd hat on.)

The milky way really is incredibly vast, beyond human comprehension.  As someone in thread mentioned, astronomers actually don't even have a great estimate at how many stars are in the Milky Way.  Its a fine canvass to paint a story on.  

That said, the galaxy actually has a large number of satellite galaxies,  the closest of which is actually significantly closer to the Milky Way than the galaxy's diameter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_Dwarf_Spheroidal_Galax), although there may be one even closer but it's disputed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_Major_Overdensity). 

It's estimated that the SDSG is about 70K LY from earth, so if the Astronomicon reached mostly across the galaxy, you're talking about, as a guess, .9*120K LY, at least 100K LY range, which is plenty to reach the SDSG.     

[Marshal Rohr]

(Astronomy nerd hat on.)

 

The milky way really is incredibly vast, beyond human comprehension.  As someone in thread mentioned, astronomers actually don't even have a great estimate at how many stars are in the Milky Way.  Its a fine canvass to paint a story on.  

 

That said, the galaxy actually has a large number of satellite galaxies,  the closest of which is actually significantly closer to the Milky Way than the galaxy's diameter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_Dwarf_Spheroidal_Galax), although there may be one even closer but it's disputed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_Major_Overdensity). 

 

It's estimated that the SDSG is about 70K LY from earth, so if the Astronomicon reached mostly across the galaxy, you're talking about, as a guess, .9*120K LY, at least 100K LY range, which is plenty to reach the SDSG.     

 

That would assume the warp extends beyond the milky way, which given the way the IP has the explained the warp, probably isnt the case. If there is nothing there, and nothing nearby, the gulf between galaxies would have no warp activity. 

[nanosquid]

But in-universe everything seems so... small? The greatest reality rending event is just a tiny tear across one tiny galaxy.

Do you know how big a galaxy is

[Hrvat]

People have explained it relatively well in this thread. The warp exists, but away from lived in space, where there are no souls, it's almost inert, and very difficult to sail through.

I get that. What I am asking is the source. :)

[Kastor Krieg]

For all we know, DAoT humans did travel to other galaxies. Or, perhaps more accurately, are still travelling there on generation ships or under cryostasis as the events of the 41st millennium unfold. The nearest galaxy to the Milky Way is 25,000 light years away, so even travelling at light speed, they'd still barely have made it half way by the present day of the setting.

 

Of course, even when they arrive, the distance involved is so incomprehensibly vast that communication and interaction is effectively impossible and meaningless. If you look at the list of "nearby" galaxies, the distances are measured in millions of light years. But it's probably the closest thing to the possibility of a "happy ending" for humanity this setting offers.

The problem is that most in-game factions do not seem to have a problem jumping all around the Milky Way which is about 100k ly across itself. So what's a mere 25k ly? Why travel there at relativistic speeds?

 

Have the Old Ones never reached out? Has the Webway ever been contained to just Milky Way? Is there no Warp in the void or is it just calm? We also know there are many other options for navigation outside of Astronomican's reach.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

There are, but it used to be written in the rulebook that exploration beyond the "borders" of the galaxy (Ghoul stars etc.) has to be made without using warp for whatever reason.

[Vermintide]

I watched this video a couple days ago and it reminded me of this thread and some of the discussion we were having regarding the nature of conventional space travel.

 

 

It gets truly mind-bending when relativity is applied. In essence, since the speed of light is a constant, when you travel at those speeds, it's space and time themselves that change to accommodate it. So there are all kinds of implications for travel without using the Warp- I know 40K is hardly Arthur C. Clarke level hard sci-fi, but I think it's befitting for the overall tone of the setting, given that even the FTL method available in-universe is so fraught with peril, that there is realistically no alternative.

[Snazzy]

The Atronomicon is not the limiting factor of warp travel distance.  Warp drives and navigators came about in the Dark Age of Technology, well before the Astronomicon.  Sure, it helps coordination on a galactic scale.  But, humanity spread across the galaxy without the Astronomicon.  Another factor is that the Imperium believes things like the Halo Region is haunted.  I'd laugh if it was eventually revealed that the Nids were attracted to this galaxy by the Astronomicon.

 

Didn't the AdMech send out non-warp ships during the Age of Strife?  I assume they would meet the criteria of FTL ships.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Tyranids were drawn to the galaxy by the Astronomicon.

[Kastor Krieg]

The Tyranids were drawn to the galaxy by the Astronomicon.

I thought it was Pharos?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah, it was the Pharos exploding.

[Felix Antipodes]

I was recently rereading the ADB Night Lords books and it took them about a year or more to get from the EoT to the Eastern Fringe. That is still a little quick for me but at least it wasn't Guilliman whipping across from Macragge to Terra in a heartbeat. IMHO it should take time as space is vast.

[Ishagu]

I would love a story about a ship that was launched during the Dark Age of Technology that travelled to another galaxy, and avoided the rebellion of the Men of Iron or the psychic catastrophes that followed. Potentially there could be another faction of humans with far superior technology out there, far away, beyond reach.

 

The ship could have travelled at the speed of light and time for them could have been short, whilst 15k years passed in the Milky Way.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Ishagu

[Slave to Darkness]

I have a very simple theory why its just the Milky Way. Ignoring all the fluff from the Great Crusade etc as thats later lore established recently, I would say its only set in the milky way because thats what Jim Bambra, Mike Brunton, Graeme Davis, Phil Gallagher, Richard Halliwell, Stephen Hand, Rick Priestly and Sean Masterton intended back in 1987. There is no reason for it other than 'it is what it is'. 

That and the Imperium only got so far before the Horus Heresy, and they have been plagued by internal fighting and Xenos threats ever since, and never had the chance to push further out in any significant numbers, not like the Great Crusade level of forces anyway. 

I would love to see what is floating about in the Ghoul Stars though, wasnt it supposed to be nightmarish creatures or some stuff like that? I'd love to see some Deadspace kinda gribblies or Mass Effect style reapers/collectors. Something more alien and not as humanoid. 

[Snazzy]

I would love a story about a ship that was launched during the Dark Age of Technology that travelled to another galaxy, and avoided the rebellion of the Men of Iron or the psychic catastrophes that followed. Potentially there could be another faction of humans with far superior technology out there, far away, beyond reach.

 

The ship could have travelled at the speed of light and time for them could have been short, whilst 15k years passed in the Milky Way.

 

I'd be fine with this, as long as this civilization was doomed by the end of the story.  It undermines the peril of the Milky Way if humanity survives in some undamaged form beyond the troubles of the Imperium.

[Felix Antipodes]

I would love a story about a ship that was launched during the Dark Age of Technology that travelled to another galaxy, and avoided the rebellion of the Men of Iron or the psychic catastrophes that followed. Potentially there could be another faction of humans with far superior technology out there, far away, beyond reach.

The ship could have travelled at the speed of light and time for them could have been short, whilst 15k years passed in the Milky Way.

And when they got there they found the Tyranids had consumed everything they needed to survive before they set off for the Milky Way.

 

Nom nom nom...

[Ishagu]

Maybe they have their own Men of Iron uprising, and those Men of Iron eventually start making their way back to the Milky Way. Lol anything is possible.