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Dealing with Mortarion


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#1
Brainpsyk

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Watching a couple battle reports, Mortarion is an absolute beast with 18W, T8, 3+/4++/5+++ and -1 dmg!  I watched a 5-man squad of BA Assault Termies and a BA assault squad just bounce off him (granted there was a lot of bad dice rolls).  If Morty gets his -1 to hit psychic power off, it really hurts (especially with turning off Auras within 9"). 

 

So I'm thinking SWs have a nice counter to that - Keen Senses + Morkai Bolts, so I'm trying to think of ways of best utilizing it.

 

My first inclination is a 6-man Aggressors squad with boltstorm gauntlets & fragstorm.  The 1 dmg ignores his -1 dmg, and the tactical doctrine gives -1 AP essentially mitigating his 3+ armor without being too expensive.  This works from 9.001-18" away, so we ignore Morty's aura negation.

  • 1 CP Outflank (Gotta keep them alive)
  • 1 CP Keen Senses
  • 1-2 CP Morkai's Bolts+Thane
  • 1 CP Chaplain Commanding Oratory for +1 Wound (Catechism of Fire)

Mathhammer:

  • Shooting (assuming Tactical doctrine, the -1SP is key here)
    • without Morkai: 57 shots (36 boltstorm + 21 Fragstorm), 44.3 hits, 14.8 wounds, 9.85 get past the FNP
    • with Morkai: 57 shots, 44.3 hits, 17.2 wounds, 11.5 get past the FNP
  • Melee
    • without Morkai: 19 attacks, 15.8 hits, 7.9 wounds (no +1 wound), 5.2 past the FNP
    • With Morkai: 19 attacks, 15.8 hits, 9.2 wounds, 6.2 past the FNP

So that's ~17.7 wounds with Morkai, and ~15 wounds without.  That's enough to bracket him pretty severely, or with a slight advantage on rolling, killing him outright. 

 

I liked the Aggressors, because they can withstand his rebuttal with Transhuman and 3W, and the 6-man squad can also be combat-squadded for non-DG battles.  And if the DG don't come in with Morty, I could just use these guys to delete a flank or a demon prince or 2...

 

The downside is the Aggressors are 270 points, + 105 for a JP chaplain and a LOT of CP, but that's 375 you're trading for a 500 point model, not to mention that Morty's going to be the key to his strategy and potentially his strong flank.

 

Any thoughts?  What would be your counters?


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#2
techsoldaten

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For Deathwatch, I was thinking SIA on 6-man Aggressor squads. But the math does not work out as favorably.

 

I'm going anti-tank and flyer spam. That might be the one 'weak' flank for Death Guard.

 

This is based on concerns about reliability. With that many rolls, expect wide deviations from the mean - +/- 9 wounds per turn.



#3
Vassakov

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Try and kill everything else. Play the mission. The danger with trying to kill Mortarion is if you over commit to taking him down, and fail, you've probably lost the game.

 

Admittedly, I fear that Death Guard will be a very tough matchup for us, as we've a lot of D2 weaponry especially in Combat (with Power Fists being back on the menu) and that's where their Contagions are going to be most dangerous. 


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The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.



#4
Dark Shepherd

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That depends on Morty being near the edge

IMO he needs a multiphase approach to be killed, so some mortal woundsin psychic phase, some d6d heavy weapons shooting, and a serious charge maybe with Wulfen stone involved in ideal circumstances

But no half measures. Either commit to killing him or kill everything else

Theres a turn factor too plus his starting position

#5
L30n1d4s

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@Brainpsyk,

Great question, you bring up quite a relevant issue here.

WRT you Math Hammer on Aggressors, I think you forgot the Invul save step and went straight to FNP on Mortarion... so, basically, those Aggressors are getting 50% less wounds through than you calculated.


What I do think works is massed Thunder Hammers, either 10 TH/SS WG Terminators or 10 TH/SS Wolf Guard with Jump Packs.

Using Keen Senses, +1 to wound from a JP Wolf Priest, and Morkai's Bolts like you outline above, plus the generic Space Marine Strat "Death to the Traitors" (reroll hits in melee against Heretic Astartes for 1 CP), 10 WG Terminators get 30 attacks, 34-35 hits (this is counting the unmodified 6s to hit generating additional hits due to Savage Fury), 26-27 wounds, 13-14 failed 4++ saves by Mortarion, 26-27 damage inflicted (THs become Dmg 2 from Disgustingly Resilient), and 17-18 wounds lost on Mortarion, after his 5++ FNP saves.

That either kills him or leaves him on 1-2 wounds with average rolling, which hopefully the JP Wolf Priest can finish off for you with his own melee attacks.

Edited by L30n1d4s, 19 January 2021 - 04:05 PM.


#6
Dark Shepherd

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As a general nugget if youre facing a big or high value target, 1cp for a master crafted thunder hammer on a wolf guard/twc pack leader (or character) for flat 4 damage
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#7
Karhedron

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Try and kill everything else. Play the mission. The danger with trying to kill Mortarion is if you over commit to taking him down, and fail, you've probably lost the game.

 

I think this is the key to it. People playing against the Silent King have reported similar results. In a 2000 point game, both models cost around a quarter of the army and are very tough but can only be in one place at a time. Kill everything nearby that he can buff and spread out slightly. 9th edition favours MSU so as long as you are careful, the best Morty can do is swat one unit per turn (and he may not manage that if you put THP on a unit with a decent invuln).

 

Focus on the Objectives and don't get distracted by the gribbly big bad.


Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#8
Karhedron

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Having said that, you DO want to kill Morty (either for mission or just for bragging rights), Eradicators with Heavy Melta rifles are probably the way to go. 6 of these will do a lot of damage but you should add some support if possible.

 

Jump Rune Priest with Null Zone to turn off Morty's 4++ (risky as Morty is quite good at Denying though).

1CP to Outflank them

1CP for Keen Senses

 

Any other units that add rerolls or bonuses to Hit would be good.

 

Let's imagine that you throw them at Morty without any other supporting units and just stratagems to support them. Assume you manage to bring them on within 12" of Morty. This is not as hard as it sounds as keeping >18" from table edges on the new, smaller battlefields is quite hard while still contributing to the battle. Let's have a look at average damage

 

12 shots hitting on 3s thanks to Keen Senses gives 8 hits.

S8 vs T8 means you get 4 wounds and 2 get through his invulnerable save,

2 failed saves translates to 15 wounds since the heavy melta rifles do D6+4 damage close range.

The -1D trait reduces that to 13 and then DR reduces that to about 8-9 wounds.

 

That means you have taken off half of his wounds in a single volley and most likely bracketed him for just 300 points of unit with no additional support. If you add any supporting characters to this mix, Morty suddenly starts to look very unwell indeed. Heck, if you do manage to pull off Null Zone, he will very probably be dead from that volley alone since he relies on that 4++ to stop half the damage. Even without the Null Zone, a reroll or two will quickly ramp up the damage.

 

And if Morty is not on the table, you can combat squad those Eradicators to hunt different targets. They are quite effective vs Daemon Engines and can one-shot DG from 24" as they are still D6+2 at 12-24". DG Termies also die on anything but a 1.

 

The moral of the story is fewer high damage attacks are key against Deathguard and melta is where to find it in 9th edition.


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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#9
Jorin Helm-splitter

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For me personally I'm going to concentrate on the rest of their army. I'm actually a bit more concerned with plague burst crawlers, and daemon engines. Until Morty proves that I have to take him down to win, I'm going to rely more on winning the primary and I see those other units as larger obstacles.

#10
Karhedron

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Do we know if daemon engines still have both DR and an Invuln?

 

Not getting the 5+++ will help make them more manageable because I regularly faced 5+ daemon engines in 8th.


Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#11
The Saint Ragnar

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Daemon engines do get DR and the demon save. A bunch of battle reports from Tabletop Tactics, Winters SEO, and Tabletop Titans have shown them having an invunerable.

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#12
Iron Sage

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Do we know if daemon engines still have both DR and an Invuln?

 

Not getting the 5+++ will help make them more manageable because I regularly faced 5+ daemon engines in 8th.

Daemon Engines:

 

Defiler: Old rules, but 5 attacks on his profile now and WS and BS 3+ now. Scourge nerfed. Does not have Disgustingly resilient and does not have Inexorable Advance. Everything else is like before, including daemonic 5+ invul and the regen 1 one per turn.

 

Land Raider: Like before, only smoke is a strat that gives -1 to hit. Much like loyalists. Has Inexorable Advance. Can not get Monstrous Contamination and thus DG, so you probably will never face one in a competitive game unless it drops a lot in points or the upcoming campaign supplement that is supposed to feature Death Guard. I am not hopeful though. My land raider will probably collect dust, a shame since I worked a lot on conversions for it.

 

Rhino: a rhino, got smoke, no disgusting resilience but has Inexorable Advance (not that it helps it much at all).

 

Pred destructor and annihiltor: Whatever, no one uses these much and few will start this edition as they do not have DG or daemonic etc and there is no way to give them that.

 

Myphitic Blight Hauler: The old star, now a bit pricey and cost inefficient at 140 points, you may indeed face some of them. They are still good after all. All the "special Death Guard vehicles", like this one, has Disgustingly Resilient. Does not contain the Bubonic Astartes key word, so does not have Inexorable Advance. Still is daemonic so get 5+ invul of course, but lost the "give cover" rule.

 

Bloatdrones: Has DG and Daemonic. These are scary now, particular with threshers. 12 attacks on the charge, 10 move. CC set up pretty bad ass tbh.

Plaguespitter drones also okay, but far less efficient.

 

Plagueburst Crawler: This has DG/Daemonic. Is probably a bit better than before. You will see them with entropy cannons in this edition as they are crazy good (D3 + 3 Dam).

 

 

Something to note: All daemon engines have improved Ws and BS to 3+.

 

Note: Some what unclear what you meant by DG from your post. None of the Death Guard units except Mortarion have the old version of Feel No Pain. It is all the nerfed -1 Dam all around, but I guess you know that.


Edited by Iron Sage, 21 January 2021 - 10:47 AM.

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#13
TiguriusX

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I think the chaplain combo with heavy melta eradicators is the best response I have with my army (if TOs let me proxy the indomitus eradicators as heavy melta that is)

Keen senses
Chapter master reroll (not an aura so I think it bypasses the rule)
Morkai bolts for reroll wounds of 1 (not an aura so I think it bypasses the rule)
Catechism of fire for wound +1 (you need to auto chant this because mortarion will kill you if you fail to get the combo off and he lives)

12 shots but they have +1 damage 13-24" and +3 damage 12" and closer.

Ideally hitting on 3 rerolling all and wounding on 3 rerolling 1s

8 or so wounds I believe

Hope the 4++ rolls don't go too crazy and you get to roll at least 4 damage dice

Null zone helps but it is a kamikaze mission for a 140 point librarian and you may be investing more to counter mortarion than he costs

Edited by TiguriusX, 21 January 2021 - 11:56 PM.

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#14
Bulwyf

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I play both SW and DG along with other armies. I think the best way to deal with him is try to kill the rest of the army and play the objectives. Morty is just like dealing with another primarch or Silent King or the crazy good Nightbringer. If you spend your whole list trying to take down one model you are going to give the rest of the army a free pass from shooting.


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#15
lonewolf81

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I think the chaplain combo with heavy melta eradicators is the best response I have with my army (if TOs let me proxy the indomitus eradicators as heavy melta that is)

Keen senses
Chapter master reroll (not an aura so I think it bypasses the rule)
Morkai bolts for reroll wounds of 1 (not an aura so I think it bypasses the rule)
Catechism of fire for wound +1 (you need to auto chant this because mortarion will kill you if you fail to get the combo off and he lives)

12 shots but they have +1 damage 13-24" and +3 damage 12" and closer.

Ideally hitting on 3 rerolling all and wounding on 3 rerolling 1s

8 or so wounds I believe

Hope the 4++ rolls don't go too crazy and you get to roll at least 4 damage dice

Null zone helps but it is a kamikaze mission for a 140 point librarian and you may be investing more to counter mortarion than he costs

 

If he gets the "Gloaming Bloat" warlord trait (i assume he will always have it ) you cant reroll any hit and wound rolls when in contagion range (9 ")  and its a different ability from the "deny all auras" one... So while you stay more than 9" away from that and  more than 3" away from the "deny all auras" one you are good to go tongue.png

 

probably the best tactic would be soften him up with multimelta long fangs or eradicators staying away from the reroll debuff and then charge him to finish him off making him fight last. The kamikazi null zone is a great tactic because the 4+ invu will soak lots of damage and not having it against the meltas make him a lot weaker and possible to drop in one round of shooting


Edited by lonewolf81, 22 January 2021 - 08:12 AM.


#16
Karhedron

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Chapter master reroll (not an aura so I think it bypasses the rule)


I think you are correct. One thing to bear in mind is that CM rerolls must be assigned in the Command Phase. This will not be possible if you are bringing the Eradicators on from Reserve.

Catechism of fire for wound +1 (you need to auto chant this because mortarion will kill you if you fail to get the combo off and he lives)


Auto-chanting would get around the problem of Reserves since it can take place outside the Command Phase.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#17
Dark Shepherd

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Killing Morty is covered in the new Goonhammer article on Deathguard tactics

He can be really tarpitted by Primaris with transhuman fizzy
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#18
Karhedron

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He can be really tarpitted by Primaris with transhuman fizzy


Or an Invuln perhaps. Either will reduce his damage output by around 50%. Bladeguard Veterans should be able to keep him tied up for several rounds. The only downside is their MC power swords are a bit wasted but if you simply want to stop him chewing through the rest of your army, it may be worth the sacrifice.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#19
Dark Shepherd

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He can be really tarpitted by Primaris with transhuman fizzy

Or an Invuln perhaps. Either will reduce his damage output by around 50%. Bladeguard Veterans should be able to keep him tied up for several rounds. The only downside is their MC power swords are a bit wasted but if you simply want to stop him chewing through the rest of your army, it may be worth the sacrifice.

BGV will cling to his leg like a crying toddler in the supermarket
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#20
TiguriusX

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How will the slow BGV catch the fast flying Mortarion?

And can't he just fly away and ignore them while still giving max buffs where needed?

Edited by TiguriusX, 22 January 2021 - 04:42 PM.

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#21
Karhedron

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How will the slow BGV catch the fast flying Mortarion?


Put the BGV near the centre (which is often where you will want them anyway) and Mort either has to face them or avoid a 12"-ish bubble around them.

And can't he just fly away and ignore them while still giving max buffs where needed?


If he flies away he is not shooting or charging. 490 points is a lot to pay just for buffs, even buffs as good as his. And if he flies away those buffs are moving away from your army.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#22
Jorin Helm-splitter

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@Karhedron

In all fairness with the new DR master crafted power swords are basically just power swords against a fair amount of DG units. So BGV do make a lot of sense as a tarpit unit for Morty in that matchup. 

 

@TiguriusX

He only moves 12" at full speed, and he is going to be moving towards the midfield so I don't think lining up a charge with BGVs should be that difficult especially if you have an Implusor. It's true that he can run away, but he doesn't appear to have a way to charge after he does so, so his threat is based on his buffs and debuffs rather than raw damage (plus you get to make fun of Primarch for running away from vets... a moral victory in itself lol).

 

That said I can't see players running away with him very often, even with the transhuman stratagem Mortarion isn't going to be tied up for that long by a unit of blade guard. Its more a question of what you can do with that time to get rid of their other threats, and in the long run to take advantage of Morty's biggest drawback that he can only hold one objective. 

 

If the answer is not enough we may see people move from blade guard. 

 


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#23
Dark Shepherd

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Rough mathammer is Morty only kills 2 Bladeguard (with transhuman) per turn of cc. Plus if hes yours you want him in the middle where he can buff to max effect

Things get funky for the BGV when he gets to use psychic phase and pistols but at the very least you stopped him from moving for a turn with a unit thats 105 points plus transport. If they take any wounds off him then added bonus
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#24
Karhedron

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Actually Morty will be doing well to kill 2 BGV per turn. 7 attacks max on the charge so 6 hits. Only 3 wounds with THP and 1.5 failed saves. The scythe does D6 damage so there's even a 1-in-3 chance that a failed save will not result in a kill. Realistically Morty will only be killing 1 BGV most turns.

Of course in a protracted combat he will be firing the Latern and probably chucking a Smite into the mix. But even so, that is still tactical potential that is being soaked up by the BGVs.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#25
Iron Sage

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Killing Morty is covered in the new Goonhammer article on Deathguard tactics

He can be really tarpitted by Primaris with transhuman fizzy

Yes, he can. What I think many miss with the new Mortarion being so resilient is that his damage output is down a lot, with death to the false emperor and blades of putrification gone. On average, he won't rip through squads like he used to, so you can very often successfully tarpit him with far cheaper units. A lot of those who shout that he is overpowered forget this or maybe doesn't know.

I think ignoring him is the best option unless you already have an army that is very, very good at melting high T, high wounds targets.






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