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Dealing with Mortarion


OldWherewolf

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The preview datasheet from warhammer community had silence at 3 + D3 damage, did that change? Either way I think they would use the reaping scythe profile (so 21 attacks at str 8 -2 ap) with full re-rolls to hit from himself, he should go through them a bit quicker (plus its a plague weapon so re-roll ones to wound).

With above average rolls, sure. But this goonhammer article does some math (it even suggests 21 attacks hits, which imo is not entirely likely even with re-roll 1s, although I haven't done the math for that) and finds his output against transhuman astartes to be 12.35 unsaved wounds on Intercessors with 3+ armour. https://www.goonhammer.com/nick-nanavati-reviews-codex-death-guard-and-talks-tactics/

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You are right, sorry it is D3+3 so each failed save is a kill. But Reaping mode is only S6 AP-2 D1. That profile does have the advantage of no wastage.

 

Morty can give himself full rerolls but if he does then it is not going on a unit which might get more mileage out of it.

Edited by Karhedron
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You are right, sorry it is D3+3 so each failed save is a kill. But Reaping mode is only S6 AP-2 D1. That profile does have the advantage of no wastage.

Mortarion has STR 8 naturally and you should probably calculate that you are on -1 T unless you play Nurgle soup.

 

Here is a link to the legally downloaded  sheet:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/65cgr2Gr4FLhroGm.pdf

Edited by Iron Sage
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Mortarion has STR 8 naturally and you should probably calculate that you are on -1 T unless you play Nurgle soup.

 

Here is a link to the legally downloaded  sheet:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/65cgr2Gr4FLhroGm.pdf

And let that be a lesson to me to pay attention to what I type. :smile.:

 

To be fair, with THP in play, there is no difference between S6 and S8.

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The math from goon hammer is pretty close to what I was basing my estimate on. Its real close to 2 dead blade guard a combat phase, and between psychic powers, the pistol, and the helpers I think Morty would get the 5th. That said, if a squad lasts past his movement phase I'd consider it a success.

 

I really think the key to beating deathguard is going to be scoring 15 primary points turn 2 & 3, and getting rid of their indirect fire and scoring ASAP. I'm actually looking forward to the matchup, even though its going to be a bit rough lol.

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Pop Transhuman again and pistol has a 25% chance max of taking one out

 

Command rerolls for saves will help too.

 

That said, youre looking at 4 or 5 cp to tie him up for a full battle round, without touching Psychic Phase

 

Very unlikely 5 BGV would last past your charge, his turn, combat in your next turn. And theyre only taking 5 or 6 wounds off him

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Hmm, can Mortarion use the "damage carries over" Stratagem? Or is that tied to a keyword he doesn't have?

Only Death Guard Core units can use that. Would be unbalanced and OP if not (unless you have extremely narrow pro-Death Guard glasses on).

 

So those who can use it are: Plague Marines, Blightlords, Death Shroud, Helbrute and Posessed. So no characters can use it.

Edited by Iron Sage
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Hmm, can Mortarion use the "damage carries over" Stratagem? Or is that tied to a keyword he doesn't have?

Only Death Guard Core units can use that. Would be unbalanced and OP if not (unless you have extremely narrow pro-Death Guard glasses on).

 

So those who can use it are: Plague Marines, Blightlords, Death Shroud, Helbrute and Posessed. So no characters can use it.

 

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

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Pop Transhuman again and pistol has a 25% chance max of taking one out

 

Command rerolls for saves will help too.

 

That said, youre looking at 4 or 5 cp to tie him up for a full battle round, without touching Psychic Phase

 

Very unlikely 5 BGV would last past your charge, his turn, combat in your next turn. And theyre only taking 5 or 6 wounds off him

I wouldn't pop transhuman for 1 pistol shot. My brother has DG and we played a 1500 game yesterday. He doesn't have Morty but there are plenty of units that are capable of wounding on 2's once you factor in auras. So I burned through command points fast, and I don't think I could justify investing more in the tar pit when indirect fire is knocking me off of objectives. It was a close game though and I was running both my units of bladeguard with Ragnar to see how the -1 damage would affect them (it wasn't pretty but they did accomplish things).

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Had my first competitive match against DG today...brutal

 

Was testing my GT list which is intended for sneaky CQC combat...bad match

 

 

The combination of defensive buffs are just brutal and cut the threat out of the core of my style of lists.

 

BCs and WG with LC buckets of dice are no longer a serious melee threat b/c T5 and armor saves of 2+/4++

Melta guns are hit or miss because wounding on 3 and having to punch through a 4++ with D-1 is not reliable...when you have 4 total it isn't enough

I was firing at his terminators with melta bonus so 2+ on the damage roll kills a terminator.

Rolled 1 with CP reroll of 1 multiple times over the course of the game lol

 

 

DG also have a character who can get a 12" aura and cut all movement in half as well...I had aggressors in dense and difficult terrain that he moved over and reduced to 1" of movement and froze in place essentially

 

PBC have been buffed and are much more deadly.  BS3 for the mortar and they have what are basically super LC sponsons as well

My army is built around infantry using LOS blocking walls and coming through to attack...PBC DGAF about that and mauled me...and they have a strat for flat 3 damage shots so primaris like aggressors/BGV aren't safe either

 

 

Mortarion didn't even need to come at me to nerf my army.  He went middle of the board and had bubbles to shut off all rerolls.  When I pushed on the mid left and mid right objectives I really felt the lack of rerolls in combat.

 

I took some pot shots at Mortarion just out of curiousity.  Managed 6 damage to him over the course of the game with las fusil eradicators and heavy plasma cannon shots

 

My big fail of the game was a captain with a MC TH.  Landed 6 attacks.  I rolled 1-1-2-2-4-5 for wound rolls.  No rerolls possible so only 6 damage and I got blendered in return.

 

 

I might need to rethink my army completely.

 

Probably going to swap back to heavy eradicators as my ranged unit and rely on a death star unit with full buffs to punch through in the future.

Edited by TiguriusX
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Yeah Deathwing should be a good answer for him. The silver lining for us, is that alot of the tools we'll want for deathguard will be pretty good against deathwing as well.

 

Personally I'm looking at using the tome relic to grab null zone for my rune priest, and then to try to take advantage of our different fights last abilities. I'm also probably going to lean into Redemptors a bit harder, and run a second squad of eradicators. My Intercessors already have thunder hammers. So I'm hoping that's enough to shore up the matchup, without over doing it and creating a new weak spot.

Edited by Jorin Helm-splitter
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  • 2 weeks later...

Has anyone either tested or math hammered a combo that actually works? Seems like charging in to midfield against him is a terrible decision; which is problematic, as it's what our army and the primary wants you to do.

My theory craft list is in an RTT that includes DG and mortarion...if we get paired up I'll post results good or bad

 

6 heavy melta eradicators for range

 

Combat chaplain (mantra of strength and relic crozius + Imperium sword for S8 d4 before damage reduction)

 

Also have a smash captain with MC TH and Beastslayer

 

We can change WL traits and relics pre game so I can custom into morty pretty hard

 

I fear the new PBC more though to be honest

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  • 1 month later...
Had a match v Deathguard Mortarion


Lists are locked in this tournament so no changing pre game




My army


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Space Wolves) [107 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++


+ Configuration [12CP] +


**Chapter Selection**: Space Wolves


Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]


Detachment Command Cost


+ Stratagems [-3CP] +


Relics of the Chapter [-2CP]: 2x Number of Extra Relics [-2CP]


Thane of the Retinue [-1CP]


+ No Force Org Slot [3 PL, 40pts] +


Company Veterans [3 PL, 40pts]

. Company Veteran [20pts]: 2x Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades

. Company Veteran Sergeant [20pts]: 2x Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades


+ HQ [20 PL, -3CP, 410pts] +


Captain on Bike [6 PL, -1CP, 130pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Hunter, Rites of War, Storm shield [10pts], Stratagem: Warrior of Legend [-1CP], The Armour of Russ, Thunder hammer [20pts], Twin boltgun, Warlord


Librarian [7 PL, -1CP, 140pts]: 2. Murderous Hurricane, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 5. Storm Caller, 6. Jaws of the World Wolf, Boltgun, Chapter Command: Chief Librarian [1 PL, 25pts], Force sword, Frag & Krak grenades, Jump Pack [1 PL, 25pts], Psychic Mastery, Smite, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP], Tome of Malcador


Primaris Chaplain on Bike [7 PL, -1CP, 140pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, 6. Canticle of Hate (Aura), Absolver Bolt pistol, Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity [1 PL, 25pts], Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter [-1CP], The Wulfen Stone, Twin Bolt rifle, Wise Orator


+ Troops [18 PL, 270pts] +


Blood Claws [6 PL, 90pts]

. 4x Blood Claw [72pts]: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Blood Claw Pack Leader [18pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades


Blood Claws [6 PL, 90pts]

. 4x Blood Claw [72pts]: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Blood Claw Pack Leader [18pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades


Blood Claws [6 PL, 90pts]

. 4x Blood Claw [72pts]: 4x Astartes Chainsword, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

. Blood Claw Pack Leader [18pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades


+ Elites [39 PL, 705pts] +


Bladeguard Veteran Squad [10 PL, 140pts]

. 3x Bladeguard Veteran [105pts]: 3x Frag & Krak grenades, 3x Heavy Bolt Pistol, 3x Master-crafted power sword, 3x Storm Shield

. Bladeguard Veteran Sergeant [35pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted power sword, Storm Shield


Murderfang [8 PL, 150pts]: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter, The Murderclaws


Wolf Guard [7 PL, 140pts]: Jump Pack [1 PL, 10pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]


Wolf Guard [7 PL, 140pts]: Jump Pack [1 PL, 10pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader [26pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Lightning Claw [3pts], Storm shield [4pts]


Wulfen Dreadnought [7 PL, 135pts]

. Great Wolf Claw and Blizzard Shield [15pts]

. . Blizzard Shield [10pts]: Blizzard shield [5pts], Heavy flamer [5pts]

. . Great Wolf Claw [5pts]: Great Wolf Claw, Heavy flamer [5pts]


+ Fast Attack [2 PL, 30pts] +


Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]

. Cyberwolf [15pts]: Teeth and claws


Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]

. Cyberwolf [15pts]: Teeth and claws


+ Heavy Support [21 PL, 475pts] +


Eradicator Squad [14 PL, 300pts]: Heavy melta rifle [30pts]

. 5x Eradicator [225pts]: 5x Bolt pistol

. Eradicator Sgt [45pts]: Bolt pistol


Long Fangs [7 PL, 175pts]: Armorium Cherub [5pts]

. Long Fang [38pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta [20pts]

. Long Fang [38pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta [20pts]

. Long Fang [38pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta [20pts]

. Long Fang [38pts]: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Multi-melta [20pts]

. Long Fang Pack Leader [18pts]: Astartes Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Morkai's Teeth Bolts

. . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol: Bolt pistol, Boltgun


+ Dedicated Transport [4 PL, 70pts] +


Drop Pod [4 PL, 70pts]: Storm bolter


++ Total: [107 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++




His army


++ Supreme Command Detachment +2CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [25 PL, +0CP, 490pts] ++

LoW1: Mortarion [25 PL, 490pts]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 6. Gift of Plagues, Warlord: The Droning


++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Heretic Astartes Mixed) [24 PL, -0CP, 451pts] ++

HQ1: Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [9 PL, 170pts]: Diabolic Strength, Prescience, Warptime

TR1: Plague Marines [6 PL, 113pts]: Plague Champion: Blight grenades, Boltgun, Krak grenades, Plague knife; 3x Plague Marine w/ boltgun; Plague Marine w/ mace and axe

EL1: Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 75pts]: Revolting Stench-Vats

EL2: Tallyman [4 PL, 70pts]: Blight grenades, Krak grenades, Plasma pistol

FA1: Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts]: Mark of Khorne, World Eaters


++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines Emperors Children) [57 PL, -5CP, 1,059pts] ++

NA1: Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon

HQ2: Dark Apostle [4 PL, 80pts]: Blissful Devotion, Dark Zealotry, Remnant of the Maraviglia, Soultearer Portent

HQ3: Lucius the Eternal [5 PL, 90pts]

TR2: Noise Marines [15 PL, 345pts]: Icon of Excess; 2x Marine w/ blastmaster; 12x Marine w/ sonic blaster; Noise Champion: Astartes chainsword, Doom siren,Sonic blaster

EL3: Terminators [16 PL, 234pts]: Icon of Excess, 7x Terminator: Dual Lightning Claw; Terminator Champion: Dual Lightning Claw, Combat Drugs

EL4: Terminators [16 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, 7x Terminator: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw; Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw: 2x Terminator w/ Lightning Claw, Reaper autocannon

++ Total: [106 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++



We played Vital Intelligence and I got first turn


My secondaries

Engage

Data intercept

Warrior pride


His secondaries

Engage

Data intercept

Banners


Recap


gallery_49686_6333_63169.jpg


I have the full heavy eradicator squad + null zone combo and it scared Morty...he started the game in the back corner

Without Morty as a threat his army just didn't have enough bodies


I started with a slow play throwing cyberwolves onto objectives so he would expose himself and I could hammer him


Turn 2 I pushed out and wiped his forward units while getting on all the objectives


His noise marine counter attack wiped a bunch of my guys but not enough...it left me with objective control so I could go hunt things down


I never fired at morty all game...since he was willing to stay back I focused on wiping out the other units...and it was very easy to focus fire on his army without morty


Turn 3 Morty was warptimed and charged Murderfang and I fought on death. Got 2 hits through and after FNP I did a mighty 2 damage!!


However...by that point I already had board control and had wiped him out of 2/4 quadrants.


Morty could kill whatever he touched on turns 4/5 but he couldn't be everywhere at once so I was able to score.




So...to circle back to the subject of this post.


Morty is a HUGE chunk of points.


You can counter him by bringing Morty killers and hunt him or you can kill everything else and try to minimize Morty's impact on the game


I brought morty killers and it was enough to scare him away most of the game.


Edited by TiguriusX
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So...to circle back to the subject of this post.

 

Morty is a HUGE chunk of points.

 

You can counter him by bringing Morty killers and hunt him or you can kill everything else and try to minimize Morty's impact on the game

 

I brought morty killers and it was enough to scare him away most of the game.

 

Glad to see this works in practice and not just theory.

 

How do you project the threat range from null zone? The 6" seems really limited.

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So...to circle back to the subject of this post.

 

Morty is a HUGE chunk of points.

 

You can counter him by bringing Morty killers and hunt him or you can kill everything else and try to minimize Morty's impact on the game

 

I brought morty killers and it was enough to scare him away most of the game.

 

Glad to see this works in practice and not just theory.

 

How do you project the threat range from null zone? The 6" seems really limited.

Jump pack and advance gives you a minimum 19-24" null zone range

 

12 move + d6 advance + 6 null zone aura

 

You can kiss the rune priest goodbye after but sometimes it is worth it

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As someone that plays both armies looking at the game Tigurius shared the DG player made a huge mistake. You have to be aggressive with Morty or he's a 500 point waste of points that does nothing for you.

Psychological warfare is an unintentional but very real component of this list

 

The heavy eradicator deterrent and unpredictable LF MM drop pod screw with every opponent

 

My opponent talked about the eradicators and the null zone psyker all game. He did an orbital bombardment on the eradicators turn 1 to try and make me leave my protective wall. I laughed saying that's a first and he said he never used it before either. Only did 2 mortal wounds.

 

He sent his LC Terminators after the RP on turn 2 so he could move morty without fear turn 3.

 

I wiped his Terminators with the eradicators and WG + wolf lord on a counter attack and he had no threats remaining on the left half of a vital intelligence map.

 

I agree not using morty was a mistake. It let me kill his remaining army with my army so it was 2000 points v 1500 points.

 

I am curious what happens next time. I have more than enough melta to wipe morty in 1 turn if he is too aggressive. How would the rest of his army react?

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As someone that plays both armies looking at the game Tigurius shared the DG player made a huge mistake. You have to be aggressive with Morty or he's a 500 point waste of points that does nothing for you.

Psychological warfare is an unintentional but very real component of this list

 

The heavy eradicator deterrent and unpredictable LF MM drop pod screw with every opponent

 

My opponent talked about the eradicators and the null zone psyker all game. He did an orbital bombardment on the eradicators turn 1 to try and make me leave my protective wall. I laughed saying that's a first and he said he never used it before either. Only did 2 mortal wounds.

 

He sent his LC Terminators after the RP on turn 2 so he could move morty without fear turn 3.

 

I wiped his Terminators with the eradicators and WG + wolf lord on a counter attack and he had no threats remaining on the left half of a vital intelligence map.

 

I agree not using morty was a mistake. It let me kill his remaining army with my army so it was 2000 points v 1500 points.

 

I am curious what happens next time. I have more than enough melta to wipe morty in 1 turn if he is too aggressive. How would the rest of his army react?

 

 

If I am being honest and your friend/opponent was looking for advise I would tell him to drop Mortarion completely from a competitive game. He's not worth the points. Three PBCs and at least 10 Blightlord termies on the other hand will chew up anything in the game including Eradicators.  I have played a ton of SW vs DG games over the years and Morty just isn't worth his points. 

 

In your list for example you bring enough to kill him especially the null zone. If he's not charging Morty he's a complete waste. As you said it is literally like playing 2000 points vs 1500 with an added kicker: you brought enough heavy shooting to kill Morty. If you can't target Morty then you target everything else and it won't stand up. Even DG can't stand up to that. 

 

I realize this was a tournament but after that game I would have told the DG player that he either needs to play Morty aggro or just drop him. I hate when people make huge tactical mistakes that make the rest of the game basically meaningless like that. 

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As someone that plays both armies looking at the game Tigurius shared the DG player made a huge mistake. You have to be aggressive with Morty or he's a 500 point waste of points that does nothing for you.

Psychological warfare is an unintentional but very real component of this list

 

The heavy eradicator deterrent and unpredictable LF MM drop pod screw with every opponent

 

My opponent talked about the eradicators and the null zone psyker all game. He did an orbital bombardment on the eradicators turn 1 to try and make me leave my protective wall. I laughed saying that's a first and he said he never used it before either. Only did 2 mortal wounds.

 

He sent his LC Terminators after the RP on turn 2 so he could move morty without fear turn 3.

 

I wiped his Terminators with the eradicators and WG + wolf lord on a counter attack and he had no threats remaining on the left half of a vital intelligence map.

 

I agree not using morty was a mistake. It let me kill his remaining army with my army so it was 2000 points v 1500 points.

 

I am curious what happens next time. I have more than enough melta to wipe morty in 1 turn if he is too aggressive. How would the rest of his army react?

If I am being honest and your friend/opponent was looking for advise I would tell him to drop Mortarion completely from a competitive game. He's not worth the points. Three PBCs and at least 10 Blightlord termies on the other hand will chew up anything in the game including Eradicators. I have played a ton of SW vs DG games over the years and Morty just isn't worth his points.

 

In your list for example you bring enough to kill him especially the null zone. If he's not charging Morty he's a complete waste. As you said it is literally like playing 2000 points vs 1500 with an added kicker: you brought enough heavy shooting to kill Morty. If you can't target Morty then you target everything else and it won't stand up. Even DG can't stand up to that.

 

I realize this was a tournament but after that game I would have told the DG player that he either needs to play Morty aggro or just drop him. I hate when people make huge tactical mistakes that make the rest of the game basically meaningless like that.

Yes we discussed that in the post game

 

He said his plan B was reserve morty

 

I told him morty needs to go in hard or die trying.

 

You can't ignore morty if he is in your lines.

 

I have BGV so maybe I could have tarpit morty for a turn but who knows.

 

I hate PBC and all artillery...screws my ist and style of play hard

 

I tell every DG they should have 3 PBC especially after the buff to BS3

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