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Dealing with Mortarion


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41 replies to this topic

#26
Jorin Helm-splitter

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The preview datasheet from warhammer community had silence at 3 + D3 damage, did that change? Either way I think they would use the reaping scythe profile (so 21 attacks at str 8 -2 ap) with full re-rolls to hit from himself, he should go through them a bit quicker (plus its a plague weapon so re-roll ones to wound).



#27
Iron Sage

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The preview datasheet from warhammer community had silence at 3 + D3 damage, did that change? Either way I think they would use the reaping scythe profile (so 21 attacks at str 8 -2 ap) with full re-rolls to hit from himself, he should go through them a bit quicker (plus its a plague weapon so re-roll ones to wound).

With above average rolls, sure. But this goonhammer article does some math (it even suggests 21 attacks hits, which imo is not entirely likely even with re-roll 1s, although I haven't done the math for that) and finds his output against transhuman astartes to be 12.35 unsaved wounds on Intercessors with 3+ armour. https://www.goonhamm...-talks-tactics/



#28
Karhedron

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You are right, sorry it is D3+3 so each failed save is a kill. But Reaping mode is only S6 AP-2 D1. That profile does have the advantage of no wastage.

Morty can give himself full rerolls but if he does then it is not going on a unit which might get more mileage out of it.

Edited by Karhedron, 22 January 2021 - 09:16 PM.

Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#29
Iron Sage

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You are right, sorry it is D3+3 so each failed save is a kill. But Reaping mode is only S6 AP-2 D1. That profile does have the advantage of no wastage.

Mortarion has STR 8 naturally and you should probably calculate that you are on -1 T unless you play Nurgle soup.

 

Here is a link to the legally downloaded  sheet:

https://www.warhamme...2Gr4FLhroGm.pdf


Edited by Iron Sage, 22 January 2021 - 09:14 PM.

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#30
Karhedron

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Mortarion has STR 8 naturally and you should probably calculate that you are on -1 T unless you play Nurgle soup.
 
Here is a link to the legally downloaded  sheet:
https://www.warhamme...2Gr4FLhroGm.pdf


And let that be a lesson to me to pay attention to what I type. smile.png

To be fair, with THP in play, there is no difference between S6 and S8.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#31
Jorin Helm-splitter

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The math from goon hammer is pretty close to what I was basing my estimate on. Its real close to 2 dead blade guard a combat phase, and between psychic powers, the pistol, and the helpers I think Morty would get the 5th. That said, if a squad lasts past his movement phase I'd consider it a success.

 

I really think the key to beating deathguard is going to be scoring 15 primary points turn 2 & 3, and getting rid of their indirect fire and scoring ASAP. I'm actually looking forward to the matchup, even though its going to be a bit rough lol.


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#32
Kallas

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Hmm, can Mortarion use the "damage carries over" Stratagem? Or is that tied to a keyword he doesn't have?



#33
Dark Shepherd

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Pop Transhuman again and pistol has a 25% chance max of taking one out

Command rerolls for saves will help too.

That said, youre looking at 4 or 5 cp to tie him up for a full battle round, without touching Psychic Phase

Very unlikely 5 BGV would last past your charge, his turn, combat in your next turn. And theyre only taking 5 or 6 wounds off him

#34
Iron Sage

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Hmm, can Mortarion use the "damage carries over" Stratagem? Or is that tied to a keyword he doesn't have?

Only Death Guard Core units can use that. Would be unbalanced and OP if not (unless you have extremely narrow pro-Death Guard glasses on).

 

So those who can use it are: Plague Marines, Blightlords, Death Shroud, Helbrute and Posessed. So no characters can use it.


Edited by Iron Sage, 23 January 2021 - 05:45 PM.

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#35
Kallas

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Hmm, can Mortarion use the "damage carries over" Stratagem? Or is that tied to a keyword he doesn't have?

Only Death Guard Core units can use that. Would be unbalanced and OP if not (unless you have extremely narrow pro-Death Guard glasses on).

 

So those who can use it are: Plague Marines, Blightlords, Death Shroud, Helbrute and Posessed. So no characters can use it.

 

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.


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#36
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Pop Transhuman again and pistol has a 25% chance max of taking one out

Command rerolls for saves will help too.

That said, youre looking at 4 or 5 cp to tie him up for a full battle round, without touching Psychic Phase

Very unlikely 5 BGV would last past your charge, his turn, combat in your next turn. And theyre only taking 5 or 6 wounds off him


I wouldn't pop transhuman for 1 pistol shot. My brother has DG and we played a 1500 game yesterday. He doesn't have Morty but there are plenty of units that are capable of wounding on 2's once you factor in auras. So I burned through command points fast, and I don't think I could justify investing more in the tar pit when indirect fire is knocking me off of objectives. It was a close game though and I was running both my units of bladeguard with Ragnar to see how the -1 damage would affect them (it wasn't pretty but they did accomplish things).
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#37
TiguriusX

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Had my first competitive match against DG today...brutal

 

Was testing my GT list which is intended for sneaky CQC combat...bad match

 

 

The combination of defensive buffs are just brutal and cut the threat out of the core of my style of lists.

 

BCs and WG with LC buckets of dice are no longer a serious melee threat b/c T5 and armor saves of 2+/4++

Melta guns are hit or miss because wounding on 3 and having to punch through a 4++ with D-1 is not reliable...when you have 4 total it isn't enough

I was firing at his terminators with melta bonus so 2+ on the damage roll kills a terminator.

Rolled 1 with CP reroll of 1 multiple times over the course of the game lol

 

 

DG also have a character who can get a 12" aura and cut all movement in half as well...I had aggressors in dense and difficult terrain that he moved over and reduced to 1" of movement and froze in place essentially

 

PBC have been buffed and are much more deadly.  BS3 for the mortar and they have what are basically super LC sponsons as well

My army is built around infantry using LOS blocking walls and coming through to attack...PBC DGAF about that and mauled me...and they have a strat for flat 3 damage shots so primaris like aggressors/BGV aren't safe either

 

 

Mortarion didn't even need to come at me to nerf my army.  He went middle of the board and had bubbles to shut off all rerolls.  When I pushed on the mid left and mid right objectives I really felt the lack of rerolls in combat.

 

I took some pot shots at Mortarion just out of curiousity.  Managed 6 damage to him over the course of the game with las fusil eradicators and heavy plasma cannon shots

 

My big fail of the game was a captain with a MC TH.  Landed 6 attacks.  I rolled 1-1-2-2-4-5 for wound rolls.  No rerolls possible so only 6 damage and I got blendered in return.

 

 

I might need to rethink my army completely.

 

Probably going to swap back to heavy eradicators as my ranged unit and rely on a death star unit with full buffs to punch through in the future.


Edited by TiguriusX, 31 January 2021 - 06:15 PM.

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#38
Dark Shepherd

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Kicker for us is Deathwing Terminators look a good way to deal with Morty

#39
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Yeah Deathwing should be a good answer for him. The silver lining for us, is that alot of the tools we'll want for deathguard will be pretty good against deathwing as well.

Personally I'm looking at using the tome relic to grab null zone for my rune priest, and then to try to take advantage of our different fights last abilities. I'm also probably going to lean into Redemptors a bit harder, and run a second squad of eradicators. My Intercessors already have thunder hammers. So I'm hoping that's enough to shore up the matchup, without over doing it and creating a new weak spot.

Edited by Jorin Helm-splitter, 01 February 2021 - 03:14 PM.

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#40
CrystalSeer

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Has anyone either tested or math hammered a combo that actually works? Seems like charging in to midfield against him is a terrible decision; which is problematic, as it's what our army and the primary wants you to do.

#41
TiguriusX

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Has anyone either tested or math hammered a combo that actually works? Seems like charging in to midfield against him is a terrible decision; which is problematic, as it's what our army and the primary wants you to do.


My theory craft list is in an RTT that includes DG and mortarion...if we get paired up I'll post results good or bad

6 heavy melta eradicators for range

Combat chaplain (mantra of strength and relic crozius + Imperium sword for S8 d4 before damage reduction)

Also have a smash captain with MC TH and Beastslayer

We can change WL traits and relics pre game so I can custom into morty pretty hard

I fear the new PBC more though to be honest

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#42
CrystalSeer

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My initial thought would be cunning of the Wolf' to get good firing position on them with melta fangs or eradicators. If mortarion and multiple pbc's are in a list, I hope they're not going to have enough points left for mass screening.
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