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BA vs DG - Prep and Batrep (coming Sunday)


Morticon

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Hey all.

So, the new DG codex has dropped, and all I can say is that I was really looking forward to some serious rebalancing from what I felt were some ugly, ugly combos.

 

Unfortunately, I think they are even stronger now :unsure.:

 

That being said, I'm looking forward to the challenge.

I'll be up against one of the top local DG players and I'll be taking my angels to try best him.

 

I'm looking at the following:

 

*******

 

Librarian Dread - Champion of Humanity, Unleash Rage, Quickening

Librarian in Phobos Armour - Tome, Unleash Rage, Temporal Corridor, Shrouding, Stealth Adept.

Primaris Chaplain on Bike- MoS- Soulwarden, Chatechism of FIre, Exhortation of Rage.

 

5x Incursors- Mine

5x Infiltrators - Helix

5x Infiltrators - Helix

 

5x Terminators - 4Hammers, 1Claw, Homer

8x Death Co - 4Infernus Pistol, 2Hammers, JP

10x VanVet - 2Hammers, 5Claws, 10 Shields (Maybe MC Hammer), JP

 

3x Attack Bikes - 2MM, 1HB

2x Attack Bikes- 2MM

 

5x Devastators- 3LasCan, 1HB, Cherub

 

Lucius Pod

 

*******************

 

 

So let me break this down section by section.

 

Firstly, the HQ.

 

Phobos Libby- The Stealth Adept combo on a phobos HQ is just gold. The ability to totally protect a Character (even from sniping!) is incredible. What this does is allow you to have a character that can support your army, but also camp on key objectives without ever being shot off (assuming you are playing aggressively).

 

His ability of shrouding gives the same ability to another phobos unit within 18" - meaning you afford the same protection to another phobos unit - usually the first wave Phobos that are in the middle ground (since Vanguard, Terms and DC usually helm the assault.

 

On top of this, the extra exploding 6's help out a little!

 

Libby Dread - This is one of my beat sticks. I am toying playing with a DC dread who also puts out a fantastic amount of hits. But, I feel that this guy, can help deal with Mortarion (not by himself obviously) and also help vs a load of other hard units in addition to giving me some options to play with in terms of Mortal wound output. At best, he will have 10x attacks at damage 2(3-1) and one extra with the halberd. Exploding 6s are available too, as are wisdom of the ancient rerolls for whenever Gloaming Boat is not activated (which I feel vs BA you will ALWAYS see). I have given him Champion of Humanity, because i think that the +1 to hit will be golden, and an extra attack to boot is great.

 

Added to this, he will be arriving in a Lucius, meaning I get to place him where I want him, AND, with the character rule, it means the pod protects him from return fire until its dead.

 

Chaplain - I usually run the Chappy with the second trait and give him Rites of War and Soulwarden. This is on account of the Vox relic which means that he has 9" bubble- which is exceptional. The problem here is that Mortarian will be turning off the auras - which is super dumb- meaning I dont even get my saves against the MWs vs him. But, I dont know if he will be taking Mortarion or not ...so, I need to play what I would in a tourney/TAC list. I'm also unsure about the build vs the DG . I feel like I may be better off with a beatstick Benediction/Mantra build.

 

Next the TROOPS:

 

The inclusion of Phobos units allows me to make use of Guerilla Tactics to take care of Actions like scramblers and also two of the Libbies powers - Temporal corridor acting like wings giving them an extra 12" of movement.

 

On top of this, a cheaky MW source in the Incursors means I can chip away at the bigger threats.

 

ELITES:

 

The DC are clutch - now sporting 4 Infernus pistols. and some thunderhammer backup. I'm seriously considering trying to find more points for more infernus pistols, because the multidamage will be key. Vs. a unit like Mortarion, theyre likely to be a once off unit - charging in, shooting and then dying in return . But against other units, they may have a little more staying power.

 

Vanguard - another source of sneaky MWs - 2d3 MWs from meltabombs and then the MC Hammer, meaning termies can be one-timed. The claws are solid, but are unlikely to see much use with Gloaming Boat in the mix. (I have a feeling though, he may opt for the reduce movement ability instead though- but will see).

 

Terminators - Another source of 2damage (3-1) weapons and a sturdy enough unit. I played with these guys originally, then moved to the BladeGuard because i was enjoying their style, and now, thanks to the rules of DG, I'm back to the Terms. The mobility with the homer helps loads too!

 

 

FAST:

 

The attack bikes are my auto-include unit. Multimeltas are clutch. I threw a HB mode in there too to make use of the Hellfire shots for more cheeky MWs.

 

HEAVY:

 

Devastator squad used to be Grav/HBs - but since those weapons are all but gimped vs them I've moved to Lascannons and HB (backup source of MWs). If i was playing a tourney, Id probably lose one Las and throw in a Grav just for sake of TAC. The Lascannons are there on account of the pesky T8 units - and while D6-1 is swingy, it is still better than D1 or D2.

 

 

 

 

So- that's it! A lot of hidden MW units and some hard hitting, fast moving units that can hopefully try to give the DG a little run for their money! !

 

I'll upload a batrep with pics after the game on Sunday.

Edited by Morticon
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A word of advice (not from me, but one of my local rules-nerds) - watch out for Bilghtspawn's Revolting Stench ability. Apparently it can now be increased to 12" for a CP. It forces your units to be activated as if they were not charging. I don't think it turns-off our Shock Assault, +1 to wound roll , etc., but it does mean your chargers within range will get hit before they hit themselves.

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A word of advice (not from me, but one of my local rules-nerds) - watch out for Bilghtspawn's Revolting Stench ability. Apparently it can now be increased to 12" for a CP. It forces your units to be activated as if they were not charging. I don't think it turns-off our Shock Assault, +1 to wound roll , etc., but it does mean your chargers within range will get hit before they hit themselves.

 

 

I may have missed this.  Revolting strench is now only 3" and can be increased either by the Vats relic or the Fugaris helm - which is a max of 6".  I'm not sure where they get other Aura boosts ! 

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Libby Dread - This is one of my beat sticks.  I am toying playing with a DC dread who also puts out a fantastic amount of hits and has access to visions.  

 

ELITES:

 

The DC are clutch - now sporting 4 Infernus pistols. and some thunderhammer backup.  I'm seriously considering trying to find more points for more infernus pistols, because the multidamage will be key.  Vs. a unit like Mortarion, theyre likely to be a once off unit - charging in, shooting and then dying in return.  (maybe using a lucky d3+3 mortals from Slay the Warmaster!) .  But against other units, they may have a little more staying power. 

 

Vanguard - another source of sneaky MWs - 2d3 MWs from meltabombs and then the MC Hammer, meaning termies can be one-timed. The claws are solid, but are unlikely to see much use with Gloaming Boat in the mix.  (I have a feeling though, he may opt for the reduce movement ability instead though- but will see). 

 

 

You might need a rethink there - Death Co and DCD's dont have the Death Visions rule, that's only for Characters upgraded to "The Lost". Death Visions is a separate rule to Black Rage, and it's not on their datasheets. 

 

Otherwise, looks good. I'd normally avoid infernus on DC, but if they're big game hunting it makes sense. No thoughts on Null Zone to help get wounds or Mortarion, or too risky with your own reliance on storm shields? Shame the Flakk Missile strat only works on AIRCRAFT now instead of FLY. Could have swapped a lascannon out for one for some extra mortals on morty.

Edited by Xenith
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Looks promising. You have clearly done your homework on the DG's new abilities and I don't think there are any obvious weaknesses in your list. I look forward to a BatRep to see how it went.

 

No thoughts on Null Zone to help get wounds or Mortarion, or too risky with your own reliance on storm shields?

The problem with Null Zone is that Morty is pretty good at Denying. A 58% chance of casting with a decent chance of it being denied means it will probably go off less than 50% of the time on average. Nice if it works but I am not sure it is worth the near certain sacrifice of a Libby if it fails. As you note, it also cripples your own Invulns.

Edited by Karhedron
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A word of advice (not from me, but one of my local rules-nerds) - watch out for Bilghtspawn's Revolting Stench ability. Apparently it can now be increased to 12" for a CP. It forces your units to be activated as if they were not charging. I don't think it turns-off our Shock Assault, +1 to wound roll , etc., but it does mean your chargers within range will get hit before they hit themselves.

 

I may have missed this.  Revolting strench is now only 3" and can be increased either by the Vats relic or the Fugaris helm - which is a max of 6".  I'm not sure where they get other Aura boosts ! 

 

I dug some and if DG take the FERRYMEN company rules, then for 1CP they can select a Ferrymen Foetind Virion model (which can be Foul Blightspawn) to increase his aura ability +6" (up to a maximum of 12"). If that Blightspawn got the Revolting Stench Vats relic (making his ability a 6" Aura) it suddenly becomes a really nasty 12" aura. 

 

Another thing is that according to the way the Revolting Stench Vats is worded, while an enemy units is within range of the aura, it "never counts as having made a charge move this turn (!!), irrespective of any abilities it may have"

So my colleague is arguing that it does indeed turns-off shock assault and our +1 to wound roll.... 

 

That surely was not intended by GW, but the wording seems (disgustingly) clear as it is.

Edited by Majkhel
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Another thing is that according to the way the Revolting Stench Vats is worded, while an enemy units is within range of the aura, it "never counts as having made a charge move this turn (!!), irrespective of any abilities it may have"

So my colleague is arguing that it does indeed turns-off shock assault and our +1 to wound roll.... 

 

That surely was not intended by GW, but the wording seems (disgustingly) clear as it is.

 

 

If that's the case, then RAW you wont get the echoes, shock assault, champion of humanity bonuses etc. You'll still get shock assault when charged, there may be a case for the Sanguinor and unleash rage. 

 

A lot of people were complaining about DG, but the way they're stacking up they look broken as hell. -1T to everything within 1" is stronger than our chapter tactic, and they get it as a bonus on top of all the other stuff, and then it extends to shooting. 

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Reading further into the Revolting Stench Vats aura -If he uses the aura extension Stratagem, he has to use it in the command phase, so you'll get a pre-warning. Meaning, if you go first, you're still perfectly safe to FF a squad of DC into his face T1. 
if he goes that route, he will likely keep a blob of nasty things around the Blightspawn, so it should be possible to simply ignore them for a time as most of those nasty things are slow. The only units capable of swift movement are Haulers, Drones, Crawlers (ironic!) and Morty.

 

On another note - DG characters (wounds 9 or less) are now impossible to target with ranged attacks if they are within 3" of Deathshroud Terminators.

Other than that, I'd honestly stay back, shoot and play objectives. Charge and destroy isolated targets. 
Don't you want to take Null Zone to remove some of his Invulns?

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Squishy characters seem to be a key part of DG strategy - can we see a use for snipers like scouts and Eliminators to try and take them out, or at least force the opponent to change their battleplan?

Perhaps, bbut a single Deathshroud Terminator present on the board, can put a wrench into that plan. With the way their Bodyguard rule is worded, characters within 3" and of the same company the Deathshroud are part of, cannot be targeted with ranged attacks. Period. Sniper or "closest target" rules does not matter.

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Squishy characters seem to be a key part of DG strategy - can we see a use for snipers like scouts and Eliminators to try and take them out, or at least force the opponent to change their battleplan?

Perhaps, bbut a single Deathshroud Terminator present on the board, can put a wrench into that plan. With the way their Bodyguard rule is worded, characters within 3" and of the same company the Deathshroud are part of, cannot be targeted with ranged attacks. Period. Sniper or "closest target" rules does not matter.

 

But then they've got these characters stuck with deathshrouds, on one side it's good coz they are making one blob with them so they can't spread buffs on the other side now you have buffed deathshrouds to chew through.

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Yup, Death Guard are shaping up to be very strong. I know existing players are sad about losing some features they were used to (Captain Smash sends them his regards) but honestly it looks like they have had a decent power hike across the board.

 

Previously it was Typhus, Poxwalkers and as many Daemon Engines as you could fit into the army. Now it looks like the Plague Marines themselves are the core of the army with other units supporting them. I guess this is as it should be.

 

The thing that really scares me is Mortarion. Either you devote most of your army to killing him (which will likely take at least 2 turns and allow the rest of the army to close in unmolested) or you try to ignore him and focus on the Objectives and the rest of the army. The trouble is he can do a lot of damage by himself and his masses of auras can throw several spanners in our works, even if we are just trying to kill the stuff around him.

 

I see Chief Librarians with Jump Pack and Null Zone being all the rage among Loyalists. Turning off his 4++ is about the only way to put meanigful amounts of damage on him, and even that will probably require masssed melta fire to achieve.

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Libby Dread - This is one of my beat sticks.  I am toying playing with a DC dread who also puts out a fantastic amount of hits and has access to visions.  

 

ELITES:

 

The DC are clutch - now sporting 4 Infernus pistols. and some thunderhammer backup.  I'm seriously considering trying to find more points for more infernus pistols, because the multidamage will be key.  Vs. a unit like Mortarion, theyre likely to be a once off unit - charging in, shooting and then dying in return.  (maybe using a lucky d3+3 mortals from Slay the Warmaster!) .  But against other units, they may have a little more staying power. 

 

Vanguard - another source of sneaky MWs - 2d3 MWs from meltabombs and then the MC Hammer, meaning termies can be one-timed. The claws are solid, but are unlikely to see much use with Gloaming Boat in the mix.  (I have a feeling though, he may opt for the reduce movement ability instead though- but will see). 

 

 

You might need a rethink there - Death Co and DCD's dont have the Death Visions rule, that's only for Characters upgraded to "The Lost". Death Visions is a separate rule to Black Rage, and it's not on their datasheets. 

 

Otherwise, looks good. I'd normally avoid infernus on DC, but if they're big game hunting it makes sense. No thoughts on Null Zone to help get wounds or Mortarion, or too risky with your own reliance on storm shields? Shame the Flakk Missile strat only works on AIRCRAFT now instead of FLY. Could have swapped a lascannon out for one for some extra mortals on morty.

 

 

 

i have NO idea how i missed that- ive been playing them wrong for weeks now :/ damnit. 

 

Changes some considerations. 

 

 

And this thread is proving very helpful. 

 

Thanks guys. 

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FAST: 

 

The attack bikes are my auto-include unit.  Multimeltas are clutch.  I threw a HB mode in there too to make use of the Hellfire shots for more cheeky MWs. 

 

 

 

Hellfire shells is unfortunately INFANTRY only, so it would have to come from your devastator marine.

 

Good luck! I feel Mortarian with the no reroll warlord trait is an auto win for death guard vs melee space marines (BA, scars, SW), but hope you can prove me wrong. 

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Good luck! I feel Mortarian with the no reroll warlord trait is an auto win for death guard vs melee space marines (BA, scars, SW), but hope you can prove me wrong.

Tarpit him with Bladeguard Veterans and THP. Between the Strat and the Stormshields, that will nerf about 75% of his damage output. Sure they won't put a lot of wounds on him but they should hold him in place for a while and stop him chewing through the rest of your army.

 

If you have a Priest/Apotheary to Res them, you can troll Morty even more by bringing them back as fast as he can kill them.

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If you can the points for a whirlwind, the suppresion fire is fantastic for tagging big daddy M (or any nasty close combat unit). The effect lasts until the start of your next turn.

 

Charge multiple hard hitting units into the blight spawn and M. Kill the blight spawn first and then use the rest of the attacks and remaining units to hit Mortarion.

 

Edit: I love your phobos librarian! I’m stealing the idea..

Edited by Are Verlo
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FAST:

 

The attack bikes are my auto-include unit. Multimeltas are clutch. I threw a HB mode in there too to make use of the Hellfire shots for more cheeky MWs.

 

 

Hellfire shells is unfortunately INFANTRY only, so it would have to come from your devastator marine.

 

Good luck! I feel Mortarian with the no reroll warlord trait is an auto win for death guard vs melee space marines (BA, scars, SW), but hope you can prove me wrong.

I whipped out my SM book last night to revise and actually noticed that. Means the Devs are important. Ill see of I can scrape 10 points for another MM on the attacks bike then

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Good luck! I feel Mortarian with the no reroll warlord trait is an auto win for death guard vs melee space marines (BA, scars, SW), but hope you can prove me wrong.

Tarpit him with Bladeguard Veterans and THP. Between the Strat and the Stormshields, that will nerf about 75% of his damage output. Sure they won't put a lot of wounds on him but they should hold him in place for a while and stop him chewing through the rest of your army.

 

If you have a Priest/Apotheary to Res them, you can troll Morty even more by bringing them back as fast as he can kill them.

THP is so important. Didnt think about it in relation to damage vs resilience. Was thinking like a BA with aggro. But that's smart

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Mort - I think you are really missing out without a sang priest. The ability to trigger savage echoes T1 and 2 on up to 2 units is huge. Sang guard/DC/VVs absolutely murder things with it. Plus rezzing/healing is just icing on top

 

I FULLY agree with you, buddy. I'm just finding it tough to find the space for him when I need the points for other units, rather than HQs.  I totally, totally agree with you, though. 

 

 

Also, taking the advice of the group here, I switched the list out a lot.

 

 

Chaplain on Bike- Imp Swd, Soul Warden, Benediction, Mantra, Exploding 6s. 

Libby - Chief - Tome, JP, Might, 5++, Nullzone, Wings. 

 

5x Incursors - Mine

5x Infiltrators - Helix

5x Infiltrators - Helix

 

10x VanVet - MC-Hammer, Hammer, 5LC, 10SS, JP. 

8x DC - 2Hammer, 4Infernus, JP.

5x Blade Guard

 

2x Attack Bikes- MM

2x Attack Bikes- MM

2x Attack Bikes- MM

 

5x Devastator - 3Lascan, HB, Cherub

3x Eradicators - Heavy Melta Rifles. 

 

 

 

****

 

So, after doing a bunch of math, I realised that I was in for a VERY tough time if he brought Morty.  I REALLY wanted to play the libby dread in the pod, but, as noted after doing the numbers, it just wasnt working out in my favour- so the two units I REALLY wanted to use (Pod Lib and Stealth Lib) had to go.  Even the Chaplain build changed - I realised that with Might and Sword and Mantra, the chaplain (with D3(4-1)) could be really, really good- even vs Morty! 

 

I also took the advice of the group with NullZone- thinking that if I came up against either him, or termy spam (which I think is gonna be a thing), this ability would be clutch. 

 

Eradicators I threw in for the terms- thinking that with the heavy melta rule, they would really be a solid unit. 

 

The rest was pretty much similar. 

 

 

******

 

 

Game was GREAT. 

 

He did bring Mortarion in the end <_<  so....i felt I was perfectly primed for it. 

 

Batrep and pics coming soon.....

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Edit: I love your phobos librarian! I’m stealing the idea..

By all means!! That's what these threads are for!

 

Same here, I will be using that idea in future.

 

Having said that, I can see the value in a JP Null Zone libby if you expect high value targets like Morty. Looking forward to the BatRep when you find the time. :smile.:

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So, I had asked my opponent to bring the most dastardly thing he could think of. 

I had a feeling with all the hype around Morty he may swing that way- despite me (and many otehrs?) thinking that a Morty build wont necesarily be the strongest.  (Terminator spam incoming, fyi). 

 

He wound up taking a bit of an unoptimised list to try a few things out. 

 

This was it:

 

Mortarion

Demon Prince - wings, stuff

Biologus

 

Foul Blightspawn

Plague Surgeon

3 Deathshroud Terminators

 

10x Plagues- 2Grenades, Flail

7x Plagues - Flail

10 (or so?) Poxwalkers

 

Crawler

Foetid Drone-lesh mower

Rhino

 

Pretty sure im missing one more character- but cant recall at the moment.  

We-Chat-Image-20210126100200.jpg

(ignore the DA-green incursors Im borrowing from my mate- i left mine at home!) ><; 

************

We played a long board mission (6 objectives, but the name I forget) which suited me well.   It meant I could control the pace of deployment a little and then potentially choose a flank, fully expecting Mortarion to take center point. 

 

I kept my DC util the last deployment in order to see the best potential target for Forlorn Fury - assuming I could get first. 

 

I edployed reasonably lightly on my left and right flanks.  On the left was an Infiltrator squad and two attack bikes along with the Dev squad, which had a nice long fire corridor to everything.  Half the board up from the left flank, I put the incursors out on the other side of a ruin, to try bait out whatever would be coming.

 

On the right flank I put an infiltrator squad on the home plate objcetive, also behind a nice ruin.  This was supported with 2 attack bikes and the heavy melta rifle Eradicators. 

 

In the center, and able to move wherever, and possibly provide counter to Morty, was the bulk of my force- including the heroes and the fighty squads. 

 

 

I had placed the DC on the left flank, where I felt they could use their FF move, and have a tradeoff of a unit and then keeping an enemy bogged down for a turn, allowing me an opp to sneak ahead on primary.  

 

The Libby I placed centrally as counter to Morty - along with the BG - who would be the ones tanking morty. 

 

 

It looked a little like this:

We-Chat-Image-20210126100217.jpg

 

on his side I was up against this:

We-Chat-Image-20210126100220.jpg

 

 

ANd this bugger...

We-Chat-Image-20210126100224.jpg
 

We rolled off, and I got first. He was kinda hoping for second, as he (rightly) sees the benefit of second for the DG at the moment. Especially with the new rules. 

 

So, the DC made their move up....

We-Chat-Image-20210126100228.jpg

The BG advanced up, hoping to draw out some units to allow me to counter.   

Because he packed his Foul Blightspawn in the Rhino, I was actually too worried to shoot the rhino, despite having some decent firepower to put into it.  This would mean that if I killed it, hed pop out and make my DC fight last. So, I risked putting the melta pistols into the Drone. 

This took the drone all the way down to 1 wound.  

 

I took a few pot shots at the rhino but nothing that I knew would be too damaging. 

 

On the right flank, i positioned the meltas in range of the termies.  They sadly made all their 4++.  Morty got shot with 4 lascannons and the Hellfire shell - making all 3 FNP rolls, and shrugging off all but 2 wounds from everything else . 

The DC charged in, and finished off the Mower Drone.  They also had movement enough to get onto the objective, and tag the Rhino.  This at least meant that my DC now had to be dealt with. 

We-Chat-Image-20210126100231.jpg

He advanced his terminators, used his right flank Plagues to raise a banner and then sent Mortarion off to my left to aid with the DC - wanting to avoid too much melta and counter charges from the central blob- fearing the nullzone. 

 

His Crawler made quick light work of the attack bikes on the left flank after moving forward to juuuust clip the center objective. Both cannons hitt and wounded (and doing 4min damage each shot meant bikes were toast:/ ) 

He then charged in the DP to the Bladeguard.  Thanks to THP they only lost one guy, and despite incoming mortal wounds, Soulwarden rolls were on fire. 

 

The DC were nuked quite quickly, but the fact they lured Mortarion over, and deplayed a core unit in his zone for a turn was golden. 

 

***
 

In turn two, I was on the majority of the objectives, giving me a nice 15 point head start.  In order to flip that he would have to dedicate a lot to put forward.  

 

I used mantra on the chappy, and exploding 6s on the VV.  I fell back from combat with the remaining BG and set up the Crawler, the DP and the Terms (possibly even the poxies for a counter). 

 

The shooting from the Eradicators and Melta bikers made quick work of the Terminators and then the DP. (The DP getting some nullzone help into oblivioin from the libby) . 

 

This meant that I only needed to engage with the Crawler and the poxies with the Vanvet.  

 

I was able to take out the Crawler with the help of the D3 (4-1) Benediction relic and then the Master Crafted Hammer from the Vanvets. However, thanks to Flash Outbreak,Gloaming Boat (we played this incorrectly - since Morty doesnt have the  <Plague Company> keywords he cant actually use it) it meant the Vanguard didnt get their rerolls on all the claws- this meant that one Pox walker was still alive- meaning loads of them could come back to life next turn <_< 

However, I had seriously made a dent on the right flank.  

 

We-Chat-Image-20210126100235.jpg


I did however fail to get a unit into his zone this turn, meaning I was behind on the BA secondary.  And on top of that, the mission secondary I chose required me clai an objective in his zone along with two in mine- this meant I was way behind on that too.  I had at least done two scrambler actions. 

 

 

It was still going to be tight.....

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Nice! Really keen to see how this goes on!
I agree the DG list was not optimised. Morty, while great is a significant points-sink. Apart from him, the list has some-of-everything in it, which is usually not that good. 
Too bad you were unable to pop the Rhino after killing-off the Fleshmower. Still, they indeed distracted Morty.

About the missing DG character, I believe I see a Malignant Plaguecaster mini (the one with a fart spell coming out of his hand)

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