20 replies to this topic

[Prot]

Since we are in such a big holding pattern for a new codex, I thought maybe we can take some time have a look at some units that need improvement, and some changes we are hoping for.

 

I'd love to hear what you guys think a reasonable Legion ability would be. At this point I have no idea. I've always hated ours, and really never been able to leverage it in any meaningful way (especially in competitive play).

 

Rules for Abaddon could change a bit.

 

Haarken the Worldclamer is in dire need of a rules teardown.

 

Actually since we have an incredible amount of HQ's, I wouldn't mind seeing some move the Elite section.

 

What would you guys change for 9th?

[battle captain corpus]

I’d love for Chosen to get a big old bump. I’m talking a big ol’ table to roll on and gods gifts etc. That would be great. Even make them command squads esque for a Chaos Lord.

Relic terminator suits to boost those of us who take Tartatos & Cataphracti.

BCC

[Prot]

Absolutely. I'd love to see Chosen become a fearful potent signature unit. Kind of like Blood Angels have a few units that fit that criteria where they are very 'fluffy' yet have real game implications.

[battle captain corpus]

Absolutely. I'd love to see Chosen become a fearful potent signature unit. Kind of like Blood Angels have a few units that fit that criteria where they are very 'fluffy' yet have real game implications.

Definitely. Chosen are after all far along the path of damnation let’s face it. Having them get a bump to say Legion rules for in stance would be nice. So say Black a legion get their own rules like they do now, units with a certain experience fluff wise get an extra rule specific to that Legion maybe.

BCC

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Speartip Assault - units coming from reserve can move after arriving onto the battlefield. Black Legion Terminators, Raptors, Warp Talons, and Mutilators would be nasty. Very fitting with the legacy of the Sons of Horus coupled with the brutal raiding tactics of Abaddon and other Black Legion warlords.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

1.  Expansion of the model line with appropriate rules. 

-new chosen which are troops for BL, i hope GW would get a bit creative with these guys rather than just having them be CSM with more guns.

-new daemon engines... especially the defiler, that kit really sucks

-new possessed marines

-new character kits... exalted champ?  

-a new unique character!  Khayon imo

-a new daemon prince kit

-a third oblit sculpt lol

 

2.  New rules for cultists

I would really like to see cultists have some sort of flavourful rules that play up how deluded they are.  Meat for the meatgrinder!

 

3.  Marks that actually do something beyond keywords.

I want marks to cost points and do something cool.  Like.... Mark of Khorne, 20 points, +1 str for your unit.  Mark of Tzeentch, -1 to enemy invulns.  Mark of Slaanesh, auto advance the max, Mark of Nurgle, ignore ap -1.  Chaos undivided, obsec or 2x model count if you already have it.    Something LIKE this.. with a bit more than the 30 seconds of thought I put into it.  

 

4. Buff Abaddon.  

This guy is clearly a galactic scale badass that is easily a match for a primarch in terms of combat ability and generalship.  He should be somewhat nastier.  How about letting him keep his oldschool reroll aura and fearless bubble rather than giving them the 9th edition treatment.  

 

5.  The Bringers of Despair.

Space marines have chapter specific datasheets so why not chaos space marines also?  I want terminators in black armour with fricking laser beams.  2+ WS/BS, 4++ save, 6" move, ld 10, with ap -1 bolters and some cool special rule that interacts with Abaddon.  

 

6.  Make the Nocwhateveritscalled Crown good.  

Maybe just cutting this things points to like 50 is enough.  I dunno.  It needs something though.

 

7.  Proper Daemon weapons.

I would like to see daemon weapons that rip and tear and not some nonsense that costs you the game because you rolled a 1 superfluous rules fluff.  A daemon weapon should take existing marine relics to a place of daemonic absurdity.  For example, how about an evil thunder hammer that bypasses invuln saves and shrugs but also takes them away from the wielder?  Or a helmet that causes LD tests to automatically fail for both friend and foe within 6"?  What about a daemon bike relic that flies, does mortal wounds on the charge, and once per game lets you automatically make a charge move without rolling?  Daemon weapons need to be crazy, not OP but very uneven or extreme in their effect.    

 

8. The Relic of Lost Cadia.

I want the BL to have a relic of this name that when facing imperial guard lets you reroll all hits and wounds against them within 12" of the character that wields it and d3 additional units out of range because you were too lazy to move the models in range.  I also want guard to get exploding 6s in close combat vs chaos so that when I table a guard player on turn 1 and they complain about the Relic of Lost Cadia I can respond with "hey man, you've got exploding 6s in close combat so it is fair".  I want this relic for the entirety of 9th edition and for it to bleed into 10th edition.  

 

All I got. ><

Edited by SanguinaryGuardsman, 23 January 2021 - 07:06 AM.

[BrainFireBob]

Any of three things.

The BL is cream of the CSM, all bloodlines represented, specialist terminators and bikers, the best gear.

Path 1) More characters. Elite characters, make "Council of Traitors" consume 1 HQ slot for the Apostle/Sorc combo- in short, increased buff stacking. Alternately, introduce Chief Librarian/Chaplain/Techmarine upgrades for BL only. Represents their elite recruitment.

2) Formation options. Bringers, Hounds of Abaddon, etc.

3) Give them limited use of other Legion traits, either purchased by unit, or as one-off strats. Deactivate the BL bonus, make the unit ineligible for Legion strats.

Or flip that. Give BL their trait- but they can use any legion aligned strats. Maybe declare eligible units in list building (these are WB CSMs, they know no fear)

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

Oh boy are there some things I want changed.

First off some general CSM things:

-Custom warband traits. I always thought it was weird that chaos wasn't the first to receive this considering our lore.

-A buff to Chaos Space Marines. As one of our only troops choice I want them to pack a punch

-Transfer over Veterans of the Long War. But give it to all CSM, but have a more powerful version for the old legions, like +1 to wound and hit rolls. Maybe have it cost 2/3cp

-Have us pay less cp for allies. Or get two free detachments as long as they don't have they same legion keyword.

-Have a strat/Relic that lets us do DthFE on any enemy

-Give each legion a special prayer

-Make Marks good.

-Lastly, and I know it is just a pipe dream, add a none helbrute dread datasheet. Make so you can only field one, but give it a bunch of cool options

Onto the BL stuff:

-A new legion trait. I was think get the +1 Ld, but before the battle begins you get to pick a trait from the custom ones/other legions.

-Give Abaddon a buff. Let him take 2 warlord traits. Like always have him take FAT but let him choose from the other BL traits. Let him keep his Old school rerolls, like Guilliman.

-Have a BL specific chapter command thing for the Ezekarion.

-Make chosen, possessed, and terminators get a buff for being BL. Ex, possessed get an aura that gives them +1 attack or +1 to wound if they're within 6'' of another BL possessed unit.


That's about it for my stuff. The rest of my ideas are far to outlandish for even wishful thinking.
One last point however

GIVE US SOME DAMN NEW CODEX COVER ART!! Like we've had the same art for the last 4 codexs.

Edited by Ezekyle_Abaddon, 27 January 2021 - 01:51 AM.

[ApulianAbaddon]

My 2 cents (strictly talking about BL and not Chaos marines as whole)

Legion trait.

This was so weak compared to Marine traits and also some Chaos ones (see Red Corsair).

Could be something like: remove -1 to hit when shooting and advancing, reroll 1 to wound in close combat if you have more models than opponent.

Nothing too crazy, but fluffy

 

Warlord traits.

These are mostly fine I think, Death to the False Emperor may be removed as it was from Death Guard codex.

 

Stratagems.

I would like to see a Bringers of Despair strat. 2/3 CP, select a Terminator units, it gets 2+ to hit and Bodyguard rules, or improved stats.

 

Model wise:

- Tweaked Abaddon Rules. More than a dozen attacks, he should hit stronger. Something like 6 attacks from Talon and 2/3 from Drachyen but dealing mortal wounds (it's a sword that rends reality)

- Improved Haarken Rules. As a Raptor lord he should improve Raptors and Warp Talons more, with something like full rerolls. His spear should deal mortal wounds or be much stronger (it's a demonic spear weaker than a plasma gun currently). His Worldclaimer rule should allow him to interact with Objectives (maybe cancelling ObjSec)

- New Chosens. Give them something peculiar and differentiate them from Terminators. They should not be special weapons holders as they currently are. They could have daemon weapons or something similar, maybe Bodyguard rules.

- New Mutilators. Align them to Obliterators size and stats

- New Defiler. Old model is nice but it's so old. Maybe give it a couple of different builds (current, more support, more shooty)

[MegaVolt87]

CSM won't be outnumbering anyone due to points. I would change it to- no -1 to hit penalty for shooting + advancing, re-rolls of 1 in melee and +1 Ld for all BL models. Its time CSM are on par or in some ways better than SM again, how can we be a serious nemesis like we are made out to be otherwise in the lore? You are only as strong as your enemies- so SM are pretty pathetic then.... 

 

Chosen need extra rules yes, but being specials holders should still be an option. Actually, instead of a terminator upgrade strat, have a reavers upgrade strat for chosen. Something like re-roll all wounds against T3 units, auto pass all required attrition tests needed. This would show reavers proficiency and talents for their war skill against their lesser fores + shows them as the bullies they are. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

CSM won't be outnumbering anyone due to points. I would change it to- no -1 to hit penalty for shooting + advancing, re-rolls of 1 in melee and +1 Ld for all BL models. Its time CSM are on par or in some ways better than SM again, how can we be a serious nemesis like we are made out to be otherwise in the lore? You are only as strong as your enemies- so SM are pretty pathetic then.... 

 

Chosen need extra rules yes, but being specials holders should still be an option. Actually, instead of a terminator upgrade strat, have a reavers upgrade strat for chosen. Something like re-roll all wounds against T3 units, auto pass all required attrition tests needed. This would show reavers proficiency and talents for their war skill against their lesser fores + shows them as the bullies they are. 

I kind of like the idea of BL being all about the obsec.  World Killers is an interesting stratagem but very clunky to use.  How about just having the BL trait be army wide obsec and 2x obsec for troops combined with exploding 6s in close combat?  Seems like it would be pretty strong and in keeping with their higher purpose.  

[SmiteThemAll]

Liking a lot of the ideas I'm reading.The general consensus seems to be that marks/chosen/Hqs need some serious tweeking and I'm in agreement.

 

 

 

I'd like to see something like this for black legion units- 

 

-All black legion units that do not already come with a mark of chaos (Beserkers/plague marines/noise marines etc etc) are considered chaos undivided.

 

-For 1 command point you can upgrade a unit to have a chaos mark and receive some sort of stat boost, something like-

 

Nurgle. +1 Toughness, shrug wounds on a 6+

Slannesh +1 Movement/advance/charge DttFE on 5+

Khorne + 2 Attacks or advance and charge (Advance and charge seems more flavourful but also broken)

Tzeentch +1AP to range/melee attacks and a 5 or 6+ Invuln ? (Not sure about these guys, the invuln seems like a no brainer, the +1 to ap could be magic damage?)

 

Also if there are decent god specific strategems then giving these units a mark allows them to use them.

 

 

 

 

 

For chosen if they do not choose a mark upgrade then they may choose one of the following veteran skills (for free)

 

Tank hunters +1 to damage rolls vs vehicles/monstrous creatures

Ferocious fighters + 1 attack and -1 AP to melee attacks

Sharp shooters + 1 to hit with ranged weapons/ignore modifiers 

Stealth troops 6" move before turn 1 and always -1 to hit vs ranged attacks

Veterans of the long war/world killers. Count as 2x for obsec and ignore leadership.

 

I'm just pulling some of these out of my behind and whilst most are probably not realistic and maybe too broken, I think some have merit.

[Danielatar]

I would want stratagems that are both lore/fluffy and average to great that simulate Black Legion's way of war a.k.a Sons of Horus speartip, terminator teleportation to cut off enemy leadership..

 

-X" teleportation away from enemy units for terminators, closer than 9". Add some condition to this. Similar to what Custodians have for their 3" teleportation.

-Completely change the "tip of the spear" stratagem from Vigilus Ablaze into something that actually works for CSM and BL's strengths. A reroll of hit rolls on first shooting phase for closest unit is not really something that works well. Too many conditions.

-New legion trait.

[Prot]

So many good ideas guys.

 

Also Ezykyle good call out on the codex art. It's been really lacking. The only new art I have managed to grab is from Vigilus and box sets. (I have the print on my wall.) I'm an art nut and love that stuff and I hate that it's been lacking so much for us.

 

I've been thinking a lot about this and of stuff offered up so far, I strongly agree with:

 

- Marks should do something. Bring back those vet skills. Vet skills were HUGE back in the day and they can be tweaked to be a beautiful add on for Black Legion.

 

Black Legion wise:

 

- I still see us as the Anti-Ultramarines. If Guilliman dictates how the Astartes should work, then Abaddon has managed to turn 'warbands' into an organized force of destruction and has maintained the resources to do so.

 

So that being what it is I think we need new Relics something fierce. 

 

I would like to see an anti-Seal of Oath (UM relic):

 

Oath of the Undivided: Black Legion character only, must be used by an Undivided Character.

Pick an enemy unit after deployment, before the game starts. When any Black Legion unit is within 6" of Oath of Undivided Character, and they attack the predetermined target, that target cannot receive the benefits of cover, or any re-rolls, or modifiers of any kind to damage, or saves. The target cannot receive the benefit of any aura's, or damage ignoring powers.

 

It's a bit wordy but the idea being that the dark gods combine to 'rob' the target of any divine intervention of any type.

[undivided_apostle]

For CSM in general I would like to see the Master of executions in the elite slot. The exalted champion should go there as well.

Chosen need to be looked at.

For Black Legion:

Haarken needs help.

I don't actually mind that we have a bland legion trait. It allows for more freedom in list construction.

I would like to see stratagems for the major subfactions hounds of abaddon, sons of the cyclops, etc.

[Irate Khornate]

For CSM in general I would like to see the Master of executions in the elite slot. The exalted champion should go there as well.

Chosen need to be looked at.

For Black Legion:

Haarken needs help.

I don't actually mind that we have a bland legion trait. It allows for more freedom in list construction.

I would like to see stratagems for the major subfactions hounds of abaddon, sons of the cyclops, etc.

The Master of Executions I could see go to the elite slot, however I disagree with the Exalted Champion going there. The Exalted Champ is our Lieutenant equivalent and is likely to stay in the HQ slot.

[Lord_Valorion]

If i look at the DG special weapon misery, i would not hope for Chosen with special weapons. Or Chosen at all.

[techsoldaten]

Most of what I'd like to see has to do with fluff. I want Black Legion to be distinct from other chapters.

 

The main thing I'd like to see for Black Legion in 9th is allowing Terminators and Chosen to count as troops. It's fluffy and, more importantly, means you are not sacrificing CPs for detachments to make a purely elite army. 

 

Second, I'd like to see the World Killers Stratagem preserved from Vigilus Ablaze. Denying objective points is important in 9th, it was decisive for me in a number of games in 8th. Can be a very powerful mechanic to build around, and maybe there's a way to expand on this. Many of the Strats from Vigilus Ablaze related to morale, a slight buff to their effects could make Black Legion the board control Legion.

 

Third, regarding the Legion trait - 9th favors mobile armies. Being able to advance and shoot with any kind of gun, not just rapid fire, could be powerful.

 

Fourth, buff Abaddon. Saying this because there are now much better cc characters out there, he's losing some of his luster. He doesn't need to be Mortarion level good, but should be a threat against any other character in the game.

[undivided_apostle]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Irate Khornate" data-cid="5659892" data-time="1611723680"><p><p>The exalted champion is not as versatile as a lieutenant. He lacks access to a jump pack and his aura only works in the fight phase. He does get an extra attack and a good reroll ability.A lieutenant can hang back with core units or advance with them buffing them in every phase. The exalted champion fits in very specific lists and even then there are better choices. If he stays in the HQ slot they should rework him.

Edited by undivided_apostle, 28 January 2021 - 05:07 PM.

[Irate Khornate]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Irate Khornate" data-cid="5659892" data-time="1611723680"><p><p>The exalted champion is not as versatile as a lieutenant. He lacks access to a jump pack and his aura only works in the fight phase. He does get an extra attack and a good reroll ability.A lieutenant can hang back with core units or advance with them buffing them in every phase. The exalted champion fits in very specific lists and even then there are better choices. If he stays in the HQ slot they should rework him.

There's no doubt that the Exalted Champion will get reworked.However I have to point out that CSM in 8th edition were geared to be the more aggressive and melee oriented power armor army which is where the Exalted Champ was introduced and given their aura abilities. While they weren't as versatile, it still fit the theme of the faction and had it's abilities in the fight phase boosted.You also have to take into consideration that one of the main factions in the book is World Eaters, who loose 2 hq options off the bat. If they further remove the Lieutenant equivalent and the MoE to the elite slot then they must take a Dark Apostle. (I know they did it to Death Guard unfortunately).

[undivided_apostle]

Yeah it wouldn't be a big deal if they left the exalted champion in the HQ slot. I just have never observed any anyone actually use an exalted champion.