White Scars teaser maybe?

[CCE1981]

In the latest Warcom article, https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/27/field-an-all-bike-army-with-new-rules-and-stratagems-for-the-ravenwing/ , they teased how they could “...practically hear the White Scars howling from here.” Is this a suggestion that when the White Scars Supplement roles out that White Scars will get something similar to the Ravenwing?

[Gederas]

No, it's because of the running gag of "who's the best bikers in the Imperium? White Scars or Ravenwing?" and the answer is always a resoundingly "Ravenwing" despite what the Scars want to think ;)

[Prot]

I agree with Gederas. As much as I'd like to think it meant something for White Scars, it's basically giving some bragging rights to Ravenwing.

[Riddlesworth]

this one always bugs me. Ravenwing should be the best bikers in the imperium as their entire way of waging war as the second company is on bikes or in land speeders. Replicating that over an entire chapter is silly. Lightning assaults includes transport mounted infantry and tanks.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't see this as precluding something similar for White Scars, nor do I think it really makes much sense for them to get something similar. Ravenwing deploys as a full, independent fighting force, which is why they would secure objectives with bikes, and why they have historically had this rule in previous editions. A white scar deployment would include Codex-compliant companies, so should have a somewhat normal Astartes army composition. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Rik Lightstar]

this one always bugs me. Ravenwing should be the best bikers in the imperium as their entire way of waging war as the second company is on bikes or in land speeders. Replicating that over an entire chapter is silly. Lightning assaults includes transport mounted infantry and tanks.

More silly than one Chapter having the best Terminators, the best bikers AND Battle Companies on a par with everyone else?

 

Rik

[Rik Lightstar]

I don't see this as precluding something similar for White Scars, nor do I think it really makes much sense for them to get something similar. Ravenwing deploys as a full, independent fighting force, which is why they would secure objectives with bikes, and why they have historically had this rule in previous editions. A white scar deployment would include Codex-compliant companies, so should have a somewhat normal Astartes army composition. 

 

All Codex Compliant Chapters are capable of fielding more than a company of dedicated bikers and speeders.

 

In many previous editions of the Marine Codex and it hasn't been contradicted in the current one, these are as follows:

 

The Second to Fifth Battle Companies can deploy Assault and Tactical Squads as Bikers and Land Speeders as required.

 

The Sixth Tactical Reserve Company train specifically to be deployed as Bike Squads.

 

The Seventh Tactical Reserve Company train specifically to be deployed as LandSpeeders.

 

The Eighth Assault Reserve Company can also be deployed as a fully bike mounted formation.

 

But ONLY the Dark Angels can remember how to hold objectives in this situation "coz they're the super bestest at all of the things" it's just dumb.

 

Rik

Edited February 2, 2021 by Rik Lightstar

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't see anything productive to be gained from continuing given the response.

 

This is a rule that has historically existed for DA, prior to 7E. It was brought back in 9E. If they extend it further to others, that would be great, but that somehow anything was 'taken' from WS when a preexisting rule is restored is completely absurd.

[CCE1981]

White Scars were once able to take bikes as troops, being able to take them as objective secured would help bring that back. White Scars once deployed on bikes en masse, they should have that option again.

[6262]

As long as the chapter tactics don't get focused exclusively on bikes, speeders, and planes.

 

I much prefer being able to take a varied list with Scars than being pidgeonholed into bikes only.

 

Speed should be the focus of the chapter, not the delivery system.

[CCE1981]

I totally agree, I wrote the lore of my Custom Chapter to be a White Scars Successor. I don’t want to be forced into a specific list, I want to have options.

[Gederas]

this one always bugs me. Ravenwing should be the best bikers in the imperium as their entire way of waging war as the second company is on bikes or in land speeders. Replicating that over an entire chapter is silly. Lightning assaults includes transport mounted infantry and tanks.

More silly than one Chapter having the best Terminators, the best bikers AND Battle Companies on a par with everyone else?

Seeing as how the First Legion is the best Legion and was the prototype for all other Legions....

 

It's not silly when the fact is the Dark Angels are the best Bikers and Terminators in the Imperium

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Gederas

[Guest]

Fluff-wise the first legion was the legion every other legion was based upon. First legion was specialized in every aspect of warfare while other legions doctrine of war was more singular.

 

I don’t find it strange at all that the dark angels have superlative bikes and termies. And that’s only to of the original wings; firewing would surely put the raven guard to shame, dreadwing would put legions like the death guard to the test, iron wing would exceed the iron hands etc etc

 

:)

[Spinsanity]

Fluff-wise the first legion was the legion every other legion was based upon. First legion was specialized in every aspect of warfare while other legions doctrine of war was more singular.

 

I don’t find it strange at all that the dark angels have superlative bikes and termies. And that’s only to of the original wings; firewing would surely put the raven guard to shame, dreadwing would put legions like the death guard to the test, iron wing would exceed the iron hands etc etc

 

:)

Back in 30k maybe, but after 10 thousand years, you’d expect the few years of epertise the I Legion had over the others to have been overcome by the other specialists.

 

The Ravenwing are great bikers, sure, but over time, the White Scars should by far have exceeded any of the Ravenwing’s best. In large part because RW inductees are not chosen for their bike-riding proficiency but rather because of their rise within the shadowy ranks of the Legion; they begin their biking expert training when they join the 2nd company, not as soon as they join the chapter like the scars do.

[Guest]

But ravenwing-members only train mounted warfare. White scars as a chapter dont, at least that is my understanding, so I belive Ravenwing are more specialized in mounted warfare than white scars would ever be.

 

Ravenwing and white scars fight the same enemies so it’s all good tho :)

[Rik Lightstar]

Ravenwing are almost exclusively experienced Marines.

 

There are no Dark Angels bikers outside of the Ravenwing, so where are they getting all this practice?

 

Also the "we wuz first" defence seems a bit weak, a 200 year head start made a difference in the Great Crusade, it's pretty much irrelevant after 10,000 years surely?

 

The White Scars Chapter Tactics are great, but I'd love to see Scars getting Bikers as ObSec. It'd hardly be game breaking, ideally they'd be troops too, but that's a bit optimistic I think.

 

Although in AoS your choice of General does influence which additional units count as Battleline. So it could easily be done with Marine Captains:

 

Biker Captain = Biker Troops

Jump Pack Captain = Assault Marine Troops

Terminator Captain = Terminator Troops

 

As there's no Scouts as Troops any longer, it'd be a lot less open to abuse.

 

Rik

Edited March 14, 2021 by Rik Lightstar

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Fluff-wise the first legion was the legion every other legion was based upon. First legion was specialized in every aspect of warfare while other legions doctrine of war was more singular.

 

I don’t find it strange at all that the dark angels have superlative bikes and termies. And that’s only to of the original wings; firewing would surely put the raven guard to shame, dreadwing would put legions like the death guard to the test, iron wing would exceed the iron hands etc etc

 

Back in 30k maybe, but after 10 thousand years, you’d expect the few years of epertise the I Legion had over the others to have been overcome by the other specialists.

 

The Ravenwing are great bikers, sure, but over time, the White Scars should by far have exceeded any of the Ravenwing’s best. In large part because RW inductees are not chosen for their bike-riding proficiency but rather because of their rise within the shadowy ranks of the Legion; they begin their biking expert training when they join the 2nd company, not as soon as they join the chapter like the scars do.

 

This is completely false. A quote from the codex:

 

The Ravenwing is the Dark Angels' 2nd Company, and is a specialised formation that takes to the field in rapid assault vehicles manned by the Chapter's most capable riders and pilots. The warriors of the Ravenwing are selected for their skills with the fastest assets, and are given more advanced training upon their induction to the company so that they can perform even more incredible manoeuvres, adopting new formations that only the Ravenwing know.

 

There is no ambiguity in those statements.

 

 

But ravenwing-members only train mounted warfare. White scars as a chapter dont, at least that is my understanding, so I belive Ravenwing are more specialized in mounted warfare than white scars would ever be.

 

Ravenwing and white scars fight the same enemies so it’s all good tho

This is the correct reason. There are good bikers in all chapters and some also have proclivities for it, but the reason for the ObSec is because the Ravenwing is a mounted warfare company that can and does operate as an independent fighting force, and is organized that way at all times. The point is to express a formation that is baked into the very chapter organization. This is an armed formation used by unforgiven chapters, other chapters do not use it.

 

I'm not so certain on the suggestion that they'll let bike captains, terminator captains, etc. give you other units as troops. I'm fairly certain they don't plan on adopting Rites of War-style mechanics into Warhammer 40,000.

 

DA as well have scout bikes in the Greenwing, so there are mounted greenwing elements on the tabletop. They almost certainly use bikes as well in the greenwing in the lore, it's just not expressed on the tabletop.

Edited March 14, 2021 by WrathOfTheLion

[Rik Lightstar]

The new "Book of Rust" Campaign Supplement introduces "Armies of Renown" which are indeed focused on themed narrative forces such as Typhus' Terminus Est Strike Force with all infantry, lots of Zombies and Teleporting Terminators with some bonus Stratagems and Relics for accepting the restrictions.

 

I can totally see future "Armies of Renown" being Cato Sicarius' Second Company, Kor'Sarro Khan's Third Company, Iron Hand Straken and his Catachans, Yarrick and Armageddon Defenders, etc among other notorious commanders and their associated forces and they're a great way to introduce new special characters down the line.

 

Rik

[Prot]

To me I have to agree that the Dark Angels have segregated their forces to be specialized on certain 'equipment'. They also were the 'first' and it's documented they saw, and used some stuff back in the day (pre heresy) that either doesn't exist now, or is just still used sparingly in the Dark Angels.

 

So the White Scars (imo) differ in that the "equipment" isn't as important, it's the means to a common goal... as cheezy as it sounds, it's about the lightning strike. I mean even their fleet has been altered to the Khan's desires to be lighter, and faster, and use maneuvers that no other legion uses. (That's taken from the moment the Alpha Legion tried to intercept the Scars on their way to terra.)

 

There's a great references to this in many of the novels. It's actually one of the things that attracts me to the legion. It doesn't matter if they're sitting on a bike, in a speeder, or on foot, they'll find a way to you, and commence the hunt on their terms. (Ignoring common Astartes practice if necessary).