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White Scars vs. Death Guard Tactics

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#26
SanguinaryGuardsman

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It may be the case that this matchup is so awful that a new supplement is the only fix.  For tournament players, if  DG turns out not to be a meta threat it might be best to design lists as if they didnt exist and just take the L should you face them but hopefully maximize your efficiency vs everyone else.  


Edited by SanguinaryGuardsman, 12 February 2021 - 07:22 PM.


#27
Prot

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That's true. It's a different take but a lot of people will probably just do that; play your own game, and if you face DG, it's just an L and move on.

 

I am having fun trying to shift my 'ideal' White Scars into something different that can evolve into a better all comers type list.

 

Personally, I always found myself a bit... too aggressive with my White Scars. In those match ups where I faced something that was very good at handling a charge, or simply just dishing out a lot of close range/close combat damage, I would be too quick to get in with the Scars and often I'd nearly lose as a result or suffer a very unnecessary loss. 

 

Lots of what 'clicks' with White Scars is not even necessarily tied to Close Combat. I've realized this over the past year or two. Having speed, and strats that assist with speed, and even their Psychic powers have great utility.

 

I should be able to make a list that can concentrate on softening up targets just using marine based units that do this well for every chapter. Then capitalize on the stuff that Scars do well in T3+. 


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#28
Johanhgg

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Resurrecting this thread since death guard has a new codex. I’m struggling real hard against this army. Playing objectives I usually win but they are so hard to beat.

The relic that hinders the charging part to go first is a real nightmare tbh, and even the DG marine squads hits very hard.

How do you guys handle death guard?

#29
SanguinaryGuardsman

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Resurrecting this thread since death guard has a new codex. I’m struggling real hard against this army. Playing objectives I usually win but they are so hard to beat.

The relic that hinders the charging part to go first is a real nightmare tbh, and even the DG marine squads hits very hard.

How do you guys handle death guard?

 

I can't really tell you how to handle them since im 0 for 3 with all games being disasters but I could tell you what doesnt work.  

 

Engaging in close combat near the stench vats just doesnt work at all.  Even if you have your own fight last their's is better and they will trade up so efficiently it isnt worth getting close to them.  IMO White Scars can only win this matchup with a more shooting oriented list that has close combat elements.    



#30
brother_b

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I’m new to White Scars and don’t know what shooting elements to even consider outside eradicators and Redemptors. I’m trying to stay primaris only if possible. I’m also a noob to SM armies in general.

#31
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I haven't played a lot with my Scars this edition (space wolves are my fav), but in general I've found that against death guard I have to slow down. With a close combat focused army we typically need to get in some devastating charges in early to win. With DG these early assaults are a trap, they are an anvil army. To beat them you have to concentrate on the primary objectives, and movement based secondary objectives to force them to spread out. Then just try to keep the board control, react when they try to steal objectives. You don't beat them with a knockout blow, you just have to keep scoring. That said its still a really tough matchup and there is a reason DG keep showing up in top 8's.

 

I will admit that I don't have experience against the demon engine lists (most I've fought is 2 PBC, 3 MBH, and a couple of drones). They don't seem to be as popular though. From a theory crafting perspective I've tried to lower the amount of d2 weapons because of DG and Orks (ramshackle is going to be strong). For what its worth I do think Redemptors are pretty strong against both strategies. I do run them with the heavy onslaught cannons for crowd control because I think marines need that volume of fire. 

 

I'm also leaning into shooting a bit more with my wolves and would be approaching Scars from the same perspective. I just don't think we can make good trades in CC with a lot of the stronger armies. Sisters in particular have embarrassed my wolves in close combat enough IMO prove that point (I don't have any experience with DE but I imagine the results would be pretty similar). So finding that balancing point where we can take advantage of our doctrine bonus while at the same time being balanced enough to adapt is key. 

 

  


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#32
Prot

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Some good thoughts. I do agree that the 'trap' against DG is with assaulting too soon. Some of the DG units do shoot shockingly well though. 

 

I have been playing against DG with my Thousand Sons, and the point of mentioning that here is even with -2AP bolters, it's so difficult to adequately damage them with shooting at T5 and -1 Damage. This is partially why I've swapped out my Redemptors for Macroplasma, always overcharging. That 3Damage is at least a bit annoying to them.

 

My second last game against DG was with my Ultramarines, and I probably made the mistake of taking Oath as a secondary against them. It's nearly impossible to hang out in the center of the table with them (with my UM anyway). You can't trade effectively with them without SERIOUS assault capabilities. I even had my relic Seal of Oath targeting the 10 Blightlords... no dice. I just could not damage them enough, and bolters are hot trash against them. 

 

For my scars I'm thinking of going back to some Aggressors. Combined with the Chaplain on Bike, I hope to get +1 to wound with flamers/bolt gauntlets working. D3 fists +1 damage actually isn't that bad.

 

Also I tried a few times... it was a goofy thought, but it worked.... I put a Repulsor in Encirclement, for 1 CP which had Assault Intercessors in it (Not sure if this is legal), it had a great effect though.

 

Finally another new idea.... I've been hooked on Vanguard Vets with shield/claw, but I'm actually considering Dev's in Rhino's! Use the Rhino's as cover, get the Rhino's up the board, in range. Then use the strat to get the squad out and fire without penalty (I believe that's how it would work. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

The squad would be loaded with MM/Grav.


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#33
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Disclaimer: I don't play WS, I play RG successor, Tyranids and BA mostly, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think Aggressors and Terminators are good choices against DG, as the damage 1 weapon doesn't care about the -1 damage reduction. Weight of fire is good. I've found assault hellblasters very, very effective against DG. 3 shots at S5 natively is great against them.

I've also found grav cannons OK. Also, whirlwind with the S6, D1 weapon is good. DG are slow, so you can plink away out of LOS all game if you screen it right to soften key units up before you charge in. 

 

Agree that movement-based secondaries are gold against DG. 


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#34
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Grav is a good call I think. I have been considering a Dev squad with MM/Grav for a while. I've seen we have the ability to move a Rhino, get out, and shoot up something. That's potent against DG in my opinion.


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#35
XeonDragon

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Yeah, that or a drop pod. Take 3 grav cannons and 1 MM, use the cherub on the MM :)


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#36
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I actually just did this with my Ultra's. I think the effect is nearly identical... I put them in a pod, and dropped T1. Although with UM I get to use Sons of Guilliman to reroll 1's and it helps with the -1 to hit for getting out of the pod and shooting.

 

But other than that I immediately thought I have to do this with my Scars. It's just kind of silly that both armies are going to be using Pod + Devs and my typical Eradicators. ( I just can't think of anything better for my Scars... heck even my UM for putting down vehicles/dreads).

 

The Melta/Grav is flexible enough to stay relevant against DG I think.


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#37
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Bit of a disclaimer here as I haven’t been able to play a game of 9th yet, but for my white scars I’m planning around 2x 5 man assault hellblasters for the reasons mentioned above for dealing with tough resilient infantry by volume of high AP just strong enough 1 damage plasma. While keeping some faster units like inceprors and scout bikes in reserve and encirclement for late game objective grabbing.

Has anyone played around with heavy intercessors? I know they’re expensive both in cost and points but I keep coming back to the thought that with DG and now orks at toughness 5 that a unit or two with the assault heavy bolt rifle could be useful centreline unit as a way to get you back to wounding on 4’s if your local opposition has enough orks and DG.
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#38
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I have considered Heavy Intercessors with the Hellstorm guns for my Scars. I used them with my UM but not impressed. I think they are perhaps a better fit with the scars if you don't take vehicles because we typically lack a deep home zone objective guarding unit.


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#39
WatchCaptainNavar

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I nearly brought some recently before switching to even more blade guard at the last moment.
it is tempting as scars can advance and shoot the hellstorm without penalty and i have a feeling as the codexes continue to arrive having some with there toughness 5 and strength 5 shooting will be increasingly useful with how the factions stat lines are evolving compared to how they were a bit of a pointless unit on release. Plus I do like gravis armour.

Besides the direct counter units, I’ve also got a unit of eliminators for my scars as the number of supporting characters seems to be on the rise in 8th and 9th so even if they can’t kill a character and shut down there ability, they’ll hopefully push them into less optimal positions. this came about from my usual opponents but would hopefully work against the more resilient DG characters.

#40
Tokugawa

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Deathshrould is one of the most favorite units of DG players, and they have bodyguard rule. Sniper just don't work against DG.

If you have eliminator models, why not just use the lasfusils? DMG3 could one shot ko plaguemarines, and deal okay damage to other units like terminators. Phobos tricks could help you grab objectives, too.
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#41
Karhedron

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I’m new to White Scars and don’t know what shooting elements to even consider outside eradicators and Redemptors. I’m trying to stay primaris only if possible. I’m also a noob to SM armies in general.


Plasma Inceptors have been doing very well for me in 9th. They are really good against DG who favour large blobs of Infantry so Blast kicks in frequently meaning you will usually get 6 shots per model.

The fact that DG have the -1 Damage rule just means you don't need to worry about Overcharging them. Just fire normally. A 5-man squad will kill 5-6 Plague Marines per round of shooting before you start looking at buffs. Assault Hellblasters are also good and pair well with an Apothecary and Ancient. Both squads are armed with Assault weapons so Scars can Advance and fire without penalty giving them great mobilty.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#42
Karhedron

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Has anyone played around with heavy intercessors? I know they’re expensive both in cost and points but I keep coming back to the thought that with DG and now orks at toughness 5 that a unit or two with the assault heavy bolt rifle could be useful centreline unit as a way to get you back to wounding on 4’s if your local opposition has enough orks and DG.


I have been having a lot of luck with my Heavy Intercessors in my Space Wolves list. The S5 shooting is good (I normally favour the Assault 3 guns) but it is defense where they really shine. I normally find it either takes a ridiculous amount of effort for my opponent to shift them or they simply don't bother and effectively concede whatever Objective the Heavy Intercessors are holding. Now granted I do not play in the most cut-throat meta so YMMV. I also run a fairly aggressive list so my opponent usually is more worried about the Bladeguard and Dreads bearing down on him than the Heavy Intercessors smugly holding an Objective and plinking away with S5 guns.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#43
WatchCaptainNavar

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Deathshrould is one of the most favorite units of DG players, and they have bodyguard rule. Sniper just don't work against DG.

If you have eliminator models, why not just use the lasfusils? DMG3 could one shot ko plaguemarines, and deal okay damage to other units like terminators. Phobos tricks could help you grab objectives, too.


I’m afraid there already built, pre COVID my regular opponents were krieg, sisters, GSC or tau so they came about as both a way to kill t3 supporting characters and as I had hole in my points that I couldn’t fill with other primaris units without having to buy several new units to redo the list.

But good point on the bodyguard rule, my thoughts there would be if they can be a ‘threat in being’, with the snipers forcing the deathshroud and characters to bunch up to use the aura. then hopefully it forces them into quite a tight slow moving formation that can be skirted around to play the objectives.

When I can start playing locally again, I will have to read through the stratagems for the Phobos units as your right that there movement shenanigans can be just as useful as there shooting.

#44
Prot

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Eliminators aren't bad. I guess if you need to fill... 75 points in a list? 

 

With scars I think an MM bike would be a better fit perhaps. The Phobos trickery is good though as well. If the opponent doesn't start the Deathshroud on the table, you still have use of them I suppose. 

 

I'm still using Eradicators + encirclement.

 

One thing I don't know that I've tried is actually expensive, but it has worked: Encirclement on a Repulsor, with Eradicatos, or even Assault Intercessors and a character of choice.

 

What I don't know if is if it's legal to put all that in the Repulsor and 'encircle' it for 1 CP. If so, I'd love to revisit that tactic against DG. (I haven't tried it for a while.)


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#45
WatchCaptainNavar

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Exactly, A 75 point gap and no spare HQ slots. I’m trying to keep the army primaris only for power armour so that ruled out the attack bikes even if they were the strongest choice.

I have some eradicators but I’m trying to avoid including them as they’re already my main anti tank in my deathwatch army using the teleportation strat and also I’m trying to keep my scars beer hammer friendly as possible as my regular opponents are all still on 8th codexes. In fact my main anti tank is the hell blasters and 2 redemptors with macro plasma.

I’m not sure about encirclement and transports, a quick google seems to show a lot of Reddit thinks it’s the transport and the embarked unit for the stratagem. But do you really need to deepstrike a close combat unit and transport? With move, advance and charge most of our units can get across the board pretty quick as is. I’d think the main benefit would still be dropping a unit in melta range of something important. So would the points spent on the repulsor not just be better used on more eradicators and assault intercessors to ensure more survive into later turns.
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#46
brother_b

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I have an unbuilt unit of heavy intercessors and plan to put them in my list with their assault bolters. I will use them to push forward with my assault elements and sit on an objective. In turn two they’ll have the -1 AP and can put out a lot of shots.

 

I know there is a gravis armor strat available too for rolling saves if needed. All in all I’m looking forward to getting these guys some play time. They’re also primaris and I’m trying to keep my army all primaris.

 

One of our players uses death guard so having the S 5 guns and a tough unit in its own right will be perfect.


Edited by brother_b, 16 September 2021 - 04:57 PM.

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#47
Prot

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That's my hope as well.

 

They don't do well getting anywhere near Death Guard, but from a distance the extra wound will help and the S5 is definitely welcome in this match up. I find typical intercessors vs the DG are just horrible.


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#48
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I played a game into DG this week where my opponent literally killed more of his own models rolling mortal wounds on Spread the Sickness than I did in shooting and melee.

I had a run of bad dice worthy of a gypsy curse and I may have gotten a bit too fixated on killing Morty, so I don't think that's a particularly good reflection of the matchup overall.
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#49
TheNewman

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Got at least a little redemption at a tournament over the weekend. It wasn't a great game and I still lost by 35 points (which was 10 more than I should have lost by, I made a very poorly advised charge on my last turn), but I killed Morty this time.
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#50
WatchCaptainNavar

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Congrats on killing Morty, even if you lost the battle it’s a mighty trophy for your khan to banish a deamon primarch.

What list were you running at the tournament?
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