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9th Ed. Wishlist?


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#226
sairence

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Dozerblades should let you ignore difficult terrain and let you makeup use of breachable. Then they'd have a use on vehicles with short-ranged guns.
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#227
Brainpsyk

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Dozerblades should let you ignore difficult terrain and let you makeup use of breachable. Then they'd have a use on vehicles with short-ranged guns.

 

Another really good idea. yes.gif I like this over the +1 WS/A/T/Sv because I think the blade should be about movement (along with track guards).  Maybe we bring back Extra Armor for +1T.  Going from T8 to T9 might actually be too good, because even a multi-melta would be wounding on 5s.  But it would boost the survivability of a tank quite a bit, but if it's too good we'd take it everywhere. 

 

But more than that, the Dozer Blade would allow us to hide tanks Turn 1, then move thru breachable terrain, which would be HUGE for survivabilty turn 1.  (I'm soooooo having visions of Kelly's Heroes right now!).

 

I really like the 'Button UP!' order, and I think we're on the same page with 'Back Pedal!', we need a way to fall back and shoot especially with how fast units get into melee in 9th.

 

Fuel Barrels could now be a strategm, that would take away the points cost, but give flexibility instead of having to put it on a specific unit (and pray you put it on the right unit!).

 

One of my hangups is that I don't want HQs to be giving specific orders to specific units.  HQs shouldn't be ordering squads or individual tanks, their orders should affect the army, and reflect the battle strategy.  I want a reason to keep him alive, as I don't think my army commander should just run up to the enemy with his power sword, get 3 swings and die.  Something like

  • Cadian "Superior Tactical Training" - while your warlord is alive, on a 4+ any Lt/Platoon commander within 12" of the warlord can issue one more order (this additional order may not generate any additional orders).
  • Catachan - "Lead from the front" - units within 12" of your warlord get +1A/+1AP
  • Valhallan - Tenacious - models within 12" of your warlord get a 6+++ save

Those would just be 'Regimental Doctrine" abilities that you combine with warlord traits, and (if you take my idea) of pick a spot and get re-rolls to hit around that table, and your commander is a beast that impacts the entire battle.

 

Then we just need to fix the warlord traits...


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#228
Commisar Necros

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I'm not sure about the officers orders changing the whole army, that seems more for what stratagems are for. These are mid range officers too, someone overseeing 100 guys cant change much in a regiment of a million. I think what you want would be better done with more and more diverse relics, which i think we need.

 

What I want is better baneblades. Maybe some kind of force field 5++, better BS. It feels like a lodestone in my collection. I like the old platoon system I grew up with, but the detachments replaces it thouroughly. Maybe some kind of CP discount if we take certain units. Or a junior officer that doesn't take a slot every 3 inf/vet/HWS/SWS/Con. Help keep the form of platoons and give more variety for orders without changing the core. Then keep the available command squad for each, but shunt it out of the force org too. And I want my old platoon banners back too, my regiments lore is for a bunch of nobles so more flags, more better. Maybe give them some cheap morale reroll for the platoon and a bigger bonus than +1ld for the company banner. Maybe even a relic banner or something. The guard should be about buffing than giving one guy a bonus so I'd like more relics going that way.



#229
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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I'm not sure about the officers orders changing the whole army, that seems more for what stratagems are for. These are mid range officers too, someone overseeing 100 guys cant change much in a regiment of a million. I think what you want would be better done with more and more diverse relics, which i think we need.

What I want is better baneblades. Maybe some kind of force field 5++, better BS. It feels like a lodestone in my collection. I like the old platoon system I grew up with, but the detachments replaces it thouroughly. Maybe some kind of CP discount if we take certain units. Or a junior officer that doesn't take a slot every 3 inf/vet/HWS/SWS/Con. Help keep the form of platoons and give more variety for orders without changing the core. Then keep the available command squad for each, but shunt it out of the force org too. And I want my old platoon banners back too, my regiments lore is for a bunch of nobles so more flags, more better. Maybe give them some cheap morale reroll for the platoon and a bigger bonus than +1ld for the company banner. Maybe even a relic banner or something. The guard should be about buffing than giving one guy a bonus so I'd like more relics going that way.


Most regiments aren't a million strong, some might be but that's probably more of an exception rather than the rule, but a company commander in reality for most would be in an HQ and not on the field of battle proper any way.

But if you need a lore justification it's just the company commander relaying orders from higher up to the men in this specific battle or part of the battle
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#230
Diagramdude

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Baneblades need a rules/stats boost for sure, but they also could really use some sort of "no force org slot" allowance like a battleforged REGIMENT army/detachment where every unit is the same REGIMENT can bring a superheavy REGIMENT vehicle without using a LoW slot. It's extremely unattractive to spend 3-4 CP just to field it right now.


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#231
jarms48

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I'm not sure about the officers orders changing the whole army, that seems more for what stratagems are for. These are mid range officers too, someone overseeing 100 guys cant change much in a regiment of a million. I think what you want would be better done with more and more diverse relics, which i think we need.

What I want is better baneblades. Maybe some kind of force field 5++, better BS. It feels like a lodestone in my collection. I like the old platoon system I grew up with, but the detachments replaces it thouroughly. Maybe some kind of CP discount if we take certain units. Or a junior officer that doesn't take a slot every 3 inf/vet/HWS/SWS/Con. Help keep the form of platoons and give more variety for orders without changing the core. Then keep the available command squad for each, but shunt it out of the force org too. And I want my old platoon banners back too, my regiments lore is for a bunch of nobles so more flags, more better. Maybe give them some cheap morale reroll for the platoon and a bigger bonus than +1ld for the company banner. Maybe even a relic banner or something. The guard should be about buffing than giving one guy a bonus so I'd like more relics going that way.


Most regiments aren't a million strong, some might be but that's probably more of an exception rather than the rule, but a company commander in reality for most would be in an HQ and not on the field of battle proper any way.

But if you need a lore justification it's just the company commander relaying orders from higher up to the men in this specific battle or part of the battle

 

 

Considering most company commanders would be Captain, or maybe Major grade officers. They'd certainly be fighting on the front lines. Your regimental officers like Colonels, or even higher senior command staff would be the ones off the battlefield.


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#232
duz_

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Having company commanded being able to issue the same order to multiple squads count as a single use would allow some flexibility and I don't think would be game breaking

#233
Commisar Necros

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Ya the guys on the field are mostly mid-range commanders from my understanding. Regimental and divisional HQ are in like leviathans and back fields from my memory of the lore from the ghosts series. Maybe having them interact with the battle field would be cool, but really the doctrine system does that, and the master of ordinance, fleet, ect work well in showing the interconnected-ness with regimental command. Maybe that could be the supreme commander thing we get, some LoW style high command thing, since a guardsmen no matter how senior is still just a guy.



#234
Brainpsyk

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I was watching Tabletop Titans yesterday, AdMech vs. Black Templars, and I realized something...

 

We're not going far enough with these ideas

 

AdMech literally outfought BT in HtH, with solid shooting to back it up.  Our weakness is HtH, and there's twice as much of HtH as there is shooting, so our shooting has to be~2x as lethal as it currently is to bring us up to new codex standards (DE & AdMech).

 

Think about it, a 9th edition Ironstrider is 35 points, a sentinel is 35 points, but the IS has 6 autocannon shots (vs our 2) or 2 Lascannon shots (vs our 1, with D3+3 vs our D6), for the same T and W, not to mention the better BS and far better Dogmas, WL Traits, etc.  So the Sentinel has to be 2x as lethal just to keep up.

 

Since Rangers+GR are the basic AdMech troop, let's compare that to the guardsman LasGun.  @99point, a Ranger will do 3.6 wounds to a T4 MEQ BASE.  No doctrines, Forge World buffs, re-rolls, etc.

 

18 guardsmen (matches the current point cost) with our current lasguns would need 66 shots (3.7 each) to do that same damage to T4MEQ.  Now, buffing the AP to -1 with our current base of 36 shots gives us 3W to T4MEQ, but that assumes rapid firing all the time, so Lasguns would have to change to Rapid fire 2, 24" AP-1 to be roughly comparable, and would still be inferior, and still hasn't made up for our weakness in HtH.

 

Yikes!



#235
sairence

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Yeah, that is something you notice sometimes with Guard players...a lot of great fluff ideas, but often this unspoken worry of going too far and creating a monster. When the id as are actually fairly tame by comparison. :P

Considering we've been near the bottom of the pile for a while and the trend with new books it would be nice to dream a bit more.

Mainly I just hope that whoever writes/wrote the 9th ed Guard codex has solid ideas of what Guard is meant to be able to do and what makes us unique.

Edited by sairence, 23 May 2021 - 10:06 PM.

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#236
Brainpsyk

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Totally agree.  I think we already have a unique codex & rules & playstyle, we just need to be brought up to 9th's level of lethality.  I think we were aiming for something around the SM codex, but that has been far surpassed by the codicies of late. 



#237
jarms48

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Tempted to pick up the new Ad-Mech codex now, as it could give a good idea on how a Guard codex could go. Apparently there's a ton of changes, even for super-heavies.



#238
sairence

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Tempted to pick up the new Ad-Mech codex now, as it could give a good idea on how a Guard codex could go. Apparently there's a ton of changes, even for super-heavies.


They can take a free superheavy aux detacument for a questor mechanicus knight unit, which is pretty neat. Guard could easily get the same for an AM superheavy.
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#239
Diagramdude

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Is there an ETA on the guard codex? Or a rough idea of how many faction codex releases between now and our release?

#240
sairence

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Is there an ETA on the guard codex? Or a rough idea of how many faction codex releases between now and our release?


Nope. AdMech is up now, Sisters should be coming I think and a box for Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights has been teased, so it's likely their Codexes will come around that. No hints about us.

Realistically, we are pretty much the oldest remaining 8th ed Codexes out...GK may be slightly older, not sure. But who knows how much of a role that plays.
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#241
Brainpsyk

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With no rumors, I think we have to wait a while.  From the rumor mill & what GW has teased, I'm guessing SoB are next, followed by GK+Thousands Sons and/or Demons.  It just means the longer we wait, the better our codex will be!
 
Speaking of, I thought of a cool idea for Hellhounds:
 
 

Burn 'em out!

While most armies think cover is a useful tool, Hellhounds strike fear into units by igniting the entire forest around them or turning bunkers into burning tombs.

When attacking a unit in cover with an Inferno cannon, the targeted unit does not gain any benefits of cover, and the Inferno cannot receives a +1 to Wound and and additional -1AP (to a total of -2).


This wouldn't be a strategm, just a baseline rule.  There are many abilities that "ignore cover", but a hellhound with an Inferno Cannon is supposed to be designed against these entrenched units.  This turns the whole concept of cover on it's ear, while providing a unique benefit/rule to Hellhounds


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#242
Diagramdude

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I like that for the Hellhound but take it up a notch and have it turn off cover for that unit for the rest of the phase like the Catachan order.
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#243
Brainpsyk

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Here's an idea


Saturation Fire

 

Sometimes, weight of fire can kill even the most entrenched enemy by hitting the vision slots or weak spots in the armor.

 

When guardsmen, scions and veterans (not conscripts) use FRFSRF:  unmodified 6s with lasguns, laspistols and hot-shot lasguns/laspistols cause a mortal wound.

If lasguns are RF1, then it's on the to-hit roll.  If lasguns are RF2 then it's on the to-wound roll.  Either way, it will cause about 3 mortal wounds with 10 LGs with FRFSRF, not overpowering, but means there's a chance to kill something, rather than just do nothing. 



#244
Shamansky

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Here's an idea

 


Saturation Fire

 

Sometimes, weight of fire can kill even the most entrenched enemy by hitting the vision slots or weak spots in the armor.

 

When guardsmen, scions and veterans (not conscripts) use FRFSRF:  unmodified 6s with lasguns, laspistols and hot-shot lasguns/laspistols cause a mortal wound.

If lasguns are RF1, then it's on the to-hit roll.  If lasguns are RF2 then it's on the to-wound roll.  Either way, it will cause about 3 mortal wounds with 10 LGs with FRFSRF, not overpowering, but means there's a chance to kill something, rather than just do nothing. 

 

If that aplied Infantry squad would cost as a Primaris unit I'm afrad


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gallery_30308_9518_1600.png Regiments Of The B&C   Warrant Officer Class 2

 


#245
Captain Smashy Pants

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Would be alright, but I would make it a Stratagem and the attack sequence for any given attack would have to end once the MW is dealt. It wouldn't be overpowered that way, you'd need to use a CP to activate the Stratagem, then use up an order on FRFSRF, then roll to hit and finally the MW would count instead of the weapons attack rather than in addition to it. Both fluff and rules wise it shouldn't be something that could be counted on to wipe :cuss out, but you could throw caution to the wind and end up doing some serious damage with luck. Sort of a Hail Mary.

Edited by Captain Smashy Pants, 27 May 2021 - 07:31 AM.

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I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#246
Brainpsyk

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Since Rangers+GR are the basic AdMech troop, let's compare that to the guardsman LasGun.  @99point, a Ranger will do 3.6 wounds to a T4 MEQ BASE.  No doctrines, Forge World buffs, re-rolls, etc.

 

18 guardsmen (matches the current point cost) with our current lasguns would need 66 shots (3.7 each) to do that same damage to T4MEQ.  Now, buffing the AP to -1 with our current base of 36 shots gives us 3W to T4MEQ, but that assumes rapid firing all the time, so Lasguns would have to change to Rapid fire 2, 24" AP-1 to be roughly comparable, and would still be inferior, and still hasn't made up for our weakness in HtH.

Ok, I was a little off on my math, but not too far.  We're taken in squads of 10, so 55 points, keeping RF1 that means we do 2.2 base wounds to a MEQ with FRFSRF.  With 6s to wound doing mortals, 40 shots, hitting on 4s (20 hits), yields ~3.3MW for a total of 5.5 wounds, or 2.5 T4MEQ, or ~50 points of models. 

  • Now we do almost nothing in the next 2 HtH phases. 
  • The enemy is within 12" for the 40 shots
  • It's 10 models so we suffer from blast
  • Hitting on 5s drops that to 2.2MW, overwatch to 1 MW.

So basically we're just getting our points back.  Combine that with 10 ObSec bodies on a point, and you get a fairly balanced unit for 9th.  Now take them in platoons, and you've got a really strong army that has a ton of bodies that has to be dealt with, which boosts the survivability of other units (like our tanks...) because firepower has to be diverted to take care of our now-effective massed infantry.

 

edit: minor correction


Edited by Brainpsyk, 27 May 2021 - 02:27 PM.


#247
Juggernut

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Gimme back my stormhammer rules, is my wish. I don’t wanna run it as another baneblade variant…

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#248
EnsignJoker

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Don’t forget orks are coming too. Four armies ahead of us at least. I’d actually prefer to have the codex drop later, to let the edition and meta sort itself out to avoid FAQ bombs so soon after release
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#249
Diagramdude

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I would like the concentrated fire stratagem extended to all infantry units not just the HWT. If your infantry unit all targets the same unit, +1 to hit and wound. Would give infantry squads or veterans or SWS a needed boost without breaking the game with mortal wound lasguns.
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#250
sitnam

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We're not going far enough with these ideas

Think about it, a 9th edition Ironstrider is 35 points, a sentinel is 35 points, but the IS has 6 autocannon shots (vs our 2) or 2 Lascannon shots (vs our 1, with D3+3 vs our D6), for the same T and W, not to mention the better BS and far better Dogmas, WL Traits, etc. So the Sentinel has to be 2x as lethal just to keep up.


Where did you get 35 points from? I just checked the codex and it lists Ironstrider as 65 points
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