BGV v Relic/Normal Terminators v Aggressors: which and why?

[XeonDragon]

So, as per the title of thread, why would you select BGV, relic/normal terminators or aggressors? What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of each for your chapter and your play style?

I play RG successor. I run normal terminators with cyclone missile launches, relic terminators with combi-bolters and LCs + grenade harness and aggressors. I find the terminators native deepstrike great for teleporting in turn 2 for a contested objective or to reinforce a unit of mine that needs help. I find it can contribute in both the shooting and melee phases, and the CML pitches in with AT/AV firepower. I like the aggressors as they can advance, shoot, melee and are good for the master of ambush strat, and are positively deadly in the tactical doctrine when the +1 to hit and +1 to wound vs characters is active.

Relic terminators I teleport forward in turn 2 to back up the aggressors (if needed), or deploy forward on the board to provide more anti-infantry firepower with the aggressors and act genuine anti-charge deterrent, allowing me to holt or significantly slow my opponents forward movement towards objectives.

What I like about all three units is that they can contribute decently in both the shooting and melee phases, are are durable. Whereas my experience with BGV to date is that they don't do much in shooting (but can shoot in combat, so that is something), are just as durable and better in melee.... but don't seem to act as good as a 'solid brick wall' as blobs of Aggressors or Terminators, at least for me.

Looking forward to hearing your opinions and experiences :D

[Tokugawa]

If you play RG, centurions may also be included in discussion.

[XeonDragon]

If you play RG, centurions may also be included in discussion.

 This is very true :)

[Karhedron]

I play Space Wolves so normal Terminators are the winners for me due to flexible loadout. I am currently thinking

 

Leader with Thunder Hammer Storm Shield

Assault Cannon + Power Fist

Storm bolter + Chain fist

2 x Storm bolter + Storm Shield

[Ishagu]

Aggressors for me because the models look better, more imposing and more well proportioned. There are combinations of chapters/rules that can make Terminators very compelling, however.

[Brother Kraskor]

TH/SS Terminators backed up by a Chaplain popping Canticle of Hate makes for pretty reliable deep strike charges for BT with their innate re-roll. 

 

I like the idea of Centurions but short of a Land Raider their delivery is difficult. And then you're sinking a lot of points.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Brother Kraskor

[XeonDragon]

Aggressors for me because the models look better, more imposing and more well proportioned. There are combinations of chapters/rules that can make Terminators very compelling, however.

 

Any particular examples you would like to share? 

[Ishagu]

Dark Angels have fantastic synergies with their Terminator units, allowing for great durability and reliable assaults from reserves. Not all chapters can do this.

 

Generally speaking, a generic Aggressor Unit is more offensive than some generic Terminators, but less durable. Aggressors can be supported with Trans-Human and a 5++ invul psychic power that is readily available.

 

It all depends on what Chapter you play and what you expect the unit to do. For examples the Ultras don't have any particular perks of note for using Terminators, so I use Aggressors as the models are nicer in my eyes.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Ishagu

[SkimaskMohawk]

Point for point, the BGV are arguable the most durable; they have 3 wounds, a 2+ 4++ and have access to transhuman. But they're least damaging as they're strength 5 can only carry them so far and have no ranged weapons.

 

The aggressors are a good anchor unit because they can shoot and also benefit from transhuman while being pretty cheap.

 

Terminators have the highest damage potential due to fury of the first, but are arguable weaker defensively because their invul is worse than the BGV and can't access transhuman. Their native deepstrike and flexiblish builds let them be taken in a few different situations though.

 

Now centurions are pretty much aggressors on crack. They have the same flamer output, but far better melee and tend to crush whatever they touch. Their only negative in comparison is lack of access to transhuman, but they do have that 4th wound and a 2+ to ruin any 3 damage season's efficacy.

 

As a raven guard successor you can make a lot out of strike from the shadows and raven's blade on the three units without native deepstrike. They'll all be frustrating to deal with, but the best for deepstrike is the centurions since the rest can get into position with master of ambush.

[Ishagu]

Centurions aren't core, and that makes them the weakest option imo.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Centurions aren't core, and that makes them the weakest option imo.

I can see why people think that, but it's a fairly incorrect assumption.

 

Flamer+launcher centurions run you 275 for 5. The flamers by themselves tend to burn down most objective units on, especially when paired with the bonus ap from tactical and their big punchy hands destroy everything they touch.

 

In the context of raven guard and being a successor, the only combo you need is strike from the shadows (deepstrike) and ravens blade (all units charging the marked unit exclusively get rerolls to charge). There's no reliance on the core keyword; the best character to pair with them is an apothecary. Now for successor traits you can either go for born heroes+whirlwind where you guaranteed don't need a character for any extra bonuses, or drop born heroes for hungry for battle to give you more charge reliability.

 

For other chapters I'd agree that they might not win out over the other options, but for raven guard they're the clear winner as a flexible deepstrike unit. Especially since you can just take the other units and master of ambush them in conjunction to the centurion threat.

[Ishagu]

If you can get them where they need to be then great, for that particular variant. This is again, very chapter specific.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea I agree. The nice thing for marines is that there's a pretty big swathe of capable melee units to pick from and you can kind of interchange them to some extent.

 

I'd place vanguard vets in the mix too, because theyre very capable for their points. A power fist and shield vet is 31 points, easily far faster than the other units, with native deepstrike and pretty durable with the 2+ 4++. Swap out for lightning claws for a bargain unit.

[Dracos]

. . . and XD was clear he wanted to hear from a Chapter’s specific POV. I can’t join this discussion because I’m Primaris biased.

 

 

If I weren’t though I’d look hard at Relic Terminators. ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Relic terminators are the most tactical of the lot.

[XeonDragon]

Just want to quickly say: thanks to all the thoughtful replies. This is what I love about this forum, the depth of content and civility. I posted the same question on another forum and, well, once again this forum is the polite and thoughtful bees knees :D

[Ishagu]

Just want to quickly say: thanks to all the thoughtful replies. This is what I love about this forum, the depth of content and civility. I posted the same question on another forum and, well, once again this forum is the polite and thoughtful bees knees :D

Was it Dakka by any chance? People are so negative and immature there. I tried being positive and started calling people out for the intentionally bad advise they were giving.

 

If course I got banned from the forum lol

[XeonDragon]

 

Just want to quickly say: thanks to all the thoughtful replies. This is what I love about this forum, the depth of content and civility. I posted the same question on another forum and, well, once again this forum is the polite and thoughtful bees knees

Was it Dakka by any chance? People are so negative and immature there. I tried being positive and started calling people out for the intentionally bad advise they were giving.

 

If course I got banned from the forum lol

 

 

Yes, yes it was. I have the same avatar and name there. And yes, you are correct about the tone of the place. So glad this forum is different. I find FB groups hit and miss. I miss Google+, it has the best DnD and 40k groups. Really good discussion, no nonsense. Seriously, this forum is the bees knees compared just about anywhere else :D

[WrathOfTheLion]

For DA, Terminators and BGV take the cake over aggressors being Deathwing. As well in the context of just an army, there's the ability to run a full Deathwing army, which is something I'm looking at doing. As a lot of the army is structured around taking terminators, going to focus a lot on them with some supporting BGV units.

 

I haven't played DA yet for 9E though, I've only been playing Space Wolves so far. I've been using Wolf Guard terminators, which fit for me as my SW army is only firstborn. They're fantastic in melee as Space Wolves, and I like that the storm bolters can do a bit of work if they come in during the tactical doctrine and get the extra AP from that.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually think Ultramarines make great use of Terminators. They provide an attacking option due to Teleport Strike and since they have Twin Bolters, they can hit hard on the drop.

 

Fury of the First is nice but Ultramarines can also use Sons of Guilliman to reroll 1s without a Captain. Even using Tactical Expertise can help boost the killing power of the unit, with 10 dropping down (say minus 2 heavy weapons) will have 32 bolter shots to take advantage of it, as well as the rest of the army.

 

Also, things like Fallback and Re-Engage can cause problems for opponents. You can fall back from a unit you've smashed with melee, shoot another unit, then charge another.

 

I rate teleport, basically.

[Riddlesworth]

I have loved Aggressors since their release. I'm a bullet farmer at heart.

 

White Scars chapter tactics gives them back advance and shoot without penalty, and then charge making them a mobile threat that clears screens pre charge. with the changes to powerfists. 21 S8 ap-4 D3 attacks in assault doctrine from 5 dudes is a good profile against elites, tanks and things with -1 to wound auras (lookin' at you quins bikes). The melee threat range with these chapter tactics is 15.5 inches, which from mid-board, is a very long way, and with an average 8.5 inch advance move, they can be midboard from turn 2 onwards.

 

once you commit to them, they fit well with other support pieces.

- 5++ psychic power. Really good against those -3 multi damage weapons, but not reliable (7+ cast). For White scars it means investing in chapter command and warlord trait for the librarian to make it a 6+ and even then, you'll likely get 1 fail a game without the opponent having a psyker. if they do have a psyker, having your invun fail at the wrong turn to watch the aggressors get vaporised WILL happen

- Chief Apothecary - you know him and love him. Add 6+++ to T5 3+. 1 free rez a turn. heal to handle single damage weapons. great support piece for them

- Chaplain - everyone talks about the charge aura, 17.5 inch threat range is good. Really though, we're here for the re-roll to hit aura. going from 10 hits on the charge to 15 hits is HUGE. As with the apothecary and the 5++ psychic power, wise orator and chapter command make this a near certainty (no CP re-rolls on litanies any more). If you're taking a second litany, +1 to wound isn't that necessary, but +1 to wound when shooting the nearest target or +1 to hit with shooting is great for a unit that wants to advance->shoot->charge

- Captain/Chapter Master - same as the Chaplain, re-rolls to hit on a unit that hits in melee on 4+ is really good.

- Plume of the Planesrunner - any character (apothecary, librarian, chaplain) rocking this relic is a friend to aggressors. That 15.5 inch threat is now a 17.5 threat. Super good.

- White Scars Librarian - Ride the Winds is +2 to advance and charge. that 15.5 is now 19.5. With the way they can clear screens, this gives Aggressors the ability to really go deep and get to the juicy insides. This is a 6+ cast. A relic pick makes it a 5+ cast, freeing up warlord traits for elsewhere if needed. If you wanted to go big, chapter command+warlord trait for +1 to cast+tome of malcador has you popping this AND the 5++ invun power (assuming Tome of Malcador hasn't been FAQd to disallow multiple disciplines)

 

Weaknesses include:

- being focused down. 5++ and 6+++ will only take you so far. Adding the same buffs to Bladeguard (2+, 4++, 6+++) is better if your focus for the unit is holding a point, like the centreboard for Oaths of Moment, or objective sitting. Aggressive Aggressors shouldn't be sticking around that long, but they should make an impact.

- buff pieces being taken away

- getting tied up by chaff screens when you're low on CP. You can retreat and charge, but you have to spend CP to retreat, clear the screen and charge beyond. Only a problem if you don't have a bunch of other screen clearing available.

 

I have a unit of BGV in my list atm. I have used them as both centre board holders, because very few things want to fight bladeguard and getting 2 VP a turn is a good return, but also as the aggressive unit getting +2 advance and charge from the librarian. While BGV are still great as White Scars - advance and charge and super doctrine - I find unless I need a survivable unit, I don't need a killy unit as the doctrine makes up for that and the shooting output of aggressors (and terminators) adds more value. Will caveat this by saying that if you built a BGV unit with the right support (khan, ancient, apothecary), they are legitimately a horror unit, I just don't want that list. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Riddlesworth

[Mandragola]

I'm looking at this question for my Crimson Fists. TH/SS terminators seem to be the answer, in a big blob of 10. The plan is fairly simple - stand near Pedro for +1 attack, Obsec and rerolls to hit. Plod forward bashing things, and hope an Apothecary comes along too. Try and get near an objective to pop The Shield Unwavering every turn for +1A and +1 save (i.e. 0+ saving throw).

 

I suppose I might combat squad them. To be honest I probably wouldn't, most of the time.

 

I'd probably back this lot up with a load of intercessors and redemptors. Maybe something that could move a bit to do actions. Definitely a Librarian to try and keep mortal wounds away.

[Ishagu]

Why not do that with Aggressors? More attacks, decent shooting.

 

And they benefit from invul auras, trans-humsn, etc

 

More offense and the cost of some durability.

[Mandragola]

Yeah it’s a tough call. There are a number of things I like about the terminators though.

 

Firstly hammers are much better than Fists, especially now death guard are a thing. 3 damage is the new 2 damage. This maximises the effect of Pedro’s aura.

 

Squad size is a thing too. Aggressors max out at 6, which is a rubbish unit size to have with plasmaceptors around. 10 termies, potentially combat squad fed to 2x5, works better in 9th. It also means you can hit a lot of models with a strat or a power like Veil of Time. This is also why I marginally prefer the termies to bladeguard.

 

And finally there’s durability relative to cost. Hammernators seem to have the best combination of saves and wounds relative to their price. That save on a 1+ is just so strong, as is the 4++. There are weapons that absolutely hose aggressors, especially before you cast psychic fortress for the invulnerable. 1+/4++ is just so much better than 3+/5++.

[Captain Idaho]

Another aspect to consider is to give an Invulnerable on Aggressors you need to invest in an additional unit - a Librarian in this case, who has to be within 6" of the Aggressors which is a fairly dangerous for a Librarian on the frontline.

 

Offensively, Aggressors shoot better compared to Assault Terminators of course, so are a different beast.

 

Not something I'd compare, especially as you'll likely teleport Terminators in.