Berzul Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) Hey guys. So, I am in a bit of a connundrum. I am polishing a competitive list I have. I like the list. I tried it, it works, but requires some tweaks and some polish. Specially in the DW side. The original formation of units I was bringing was this: 5 Knights w/Watcher 5 Terminators w/Watcher Apothecary DW Ancient with Pennant of Remembrance Librarian with Righteous Repugnance. It worked fine, but it clearly would work better as a formation that can deepstrike (which this one cannot), and arrive into a more advantageous position during the battle. So, I am switching it up. Taking it as follows: 5 Knights w/Watcher 5 Terminators w/Watcher DW Ancient with Pennant of Remembrance <additional character> The idea being to drop the entire thing into a DW Vanguard Detachment, and either start them on the board or deepstrike them in their entirety. Using them as a combined force of knights up front, terminators back, with the pennant to buff the knights, and the final character there to boost their combat ability. Again, this has already proven to work in my original list; I am just switching it up a bit so that I can (1) free some points for other things in the RW side of the list, (2) make the entire thing DW, and (3) make the entire thing capable of Deep Striking. So, the question here is, considering I HAVE the points for it, what could be better as a support character for this formation? Considering, again, that it would work as a team, either from the board or from Deepstrike, to preassure my opponent while also firing on light infantry as it marches, and seeking to force the enemy to engage them in melee or relinquish a part of the board: 1) Taking a TDA Librarian with Chief Librarian upgrade, so that he can add Righteous Repugnance, Mind Worm, and 2 Denies in the Psychic Phase? 2) Taking Belial, so he can grant rerrolls of 1 to the entire group, full rerrolls to the Terminators even, and join in on the fight to deal extra damage in melee? Edited March 8, 2021 by Berzul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtrouble Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Mind Worm and Mind Wipe are just so valuable, I don’t know how you go with Belial. Helias_Tancred 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 Mind Worm and Mind Wipe are just so valuable, I don’t know how you go with Belial. Because he can make both squads more efficient in battle, by granting re-rolls to both. Also, because he can do some SERIOUS damage in close combat, over the melee prowess of the Librarian. But yeah, I do think those abilities are incredibly useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ramael Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 Well, if the other part of the formation has a DA HQ all the better for Master Bel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted March 8, 2021 Author Share Posted March 8, 2021 (edited) The other part of the formation is two Jump Pack characters leading a bunch of black knights and multi melta attack bikes, plus tacticals to hold objectives. The full list is JP Master JP Lt. <140 pts worth of characters> 15 Tacticals 5 Deathwing Knights 5 Terminators DW Ancient 6 Black Knights 5 Bikers 3 MM Attack Bikes Edited March 8, 2021 by Berzul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8Keeper Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 With the game being more about objectives that purely killing, I think the ability to turn off obsec or (with a good roll) stop an action is extremely valuable, especially when it's within 24". For me I'd go with at the very least a librarian with Engulfing Fear, with the second power being between Righteous Repugnance and Mind Wipe. Obviously the latter would depend on how you're using the Librarian, so probably Righteous Repugnance for you. As much as Belial brings, and it's a lot these days, having that 24" "you're not getting that objective" threat is really really good. With most of the forward deploying/advancing units in your army lacking obsec, it could be a game winner. Helias_Tancred 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 Or... Drop the Smash Captain and take both the TDA Chief Libby and Belial... Actually no... Thinking it through Belial can only give rerolls to DW... Which as you have the Libby with Righteous Repugnance, is a bit of duplication... This is the dilemma with Belial, he's not bad, but other HQs are just a better fit, especially outside of DW only lists... So I would take the TDA Libby, have Jump Pack Master/CPT babysit the RWBK turn 1 then meet the deep strike DW in turn 2 and smash face... 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 Or... Drop the Smash Captain and take both the TDA Chief Libby and Belial... Actually no... Thinking it through Belial can only give rerolls to DW... Which as you have the Libby with Righteous Repugnance, is a bit of duplication... This is the dilemma with Belial, he's not bad, but other HQs are just a better fit, especially outside of DW only lists... So I would take the TDA Libby, have Jump Pack Master/CPT babysit the RWBK turn 1 then meet the deep strike DW in turn 2 and smash face... 2 cents. I think this would, indeed, be the way to go. I can make the Librarian into the Chief Librarian, and even give him the Tome of Malcador, so as to extend my selection of powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 One more thought... Apothecary, anyway to wiggle one in Berzul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 One more thought... Apothecary, anyway to wiggle one in Berzul? I REALLY want to, but I have NO CLUE where to get the points... My only idea would be to take out the lieutenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Raziel Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 Doesn't Belial function as a normal Master for non-DW? I thought the only difference regarding buffing was he can give full rerolls to 1 DW unit a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Dropping 5 tactical marines gets you 90 points, only 10 to go (25 if you want a chief apothecary). If you’re putting all the DW into a vanguard the rest of your list will fit into a patrol with 10 tactical marines. Not sure how you’ll go bring down 5 tactical marines though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8Keeper Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 How set are you on the 5 RW bikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted March 10, 2021 Author Share Posted March 10, 2021 Dropping 5 tactical marines gets you 90 points, only 10 to go (25 if you want a chief apothecary). If you’re putting all the DW into a vanguard the rest of your list will fit into a patrol with 10 tactical marines. Not sure how you’ll go bring down 5 tactical marines though? Yeah but, my number of Objec Secure squads remains the same, with the offset that the DWT squad might not be sitting on an objective much. How set are you on the 5 RW bikes? Mostly set? These guys are my "move 37" turn one and force the enemy to divert fire" option. They are good at clearing small squads from objectives, or just acting as a thorn on my opponent's side T1. Plus, the add 20 extra bolter shots to clear screens and chaff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtrouble Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 There is also the fact that Belial doesn’t have a choice of warlord trait, where with the librarian you can take watched for the auto-deny. Fierce Bear 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8Keeper Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 There is also the fact that Belial doesn’t have a choice of warlord trait, where with the librarian you can take watched for the auto-deny. Belial's is pretty good though, adds to an already pretty survivable character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fierce Bear Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Would you be inclined to trim both the RWBK down to 5 bikes and possible the RW Bike Squad to 3? And assuming the Chief TDA Libby w SB is 125/140pts you had free.. 40pts (1 RWBK) + 60pts (2 Bikers) + 15pts (saved from Libby)... 115pts... If RW Apothecary you get the plasma talons back from the guy you lost from the RWBKs but the bike squad are less effective, but you aren't losing obsec... ? The chapter master rerolls get assigned in the command phase and Belial is always going to be with DW squads isnt he, where as the Jump Master has mobility... Just some more into the mixing bowl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Darius Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Would you be inclined to trim both the RWBK down to 5 bikes and possible the RW Bike Squad to 3? And assuming the Chief TDA Libby w SB is 125/140pts you had free.. 40pts (1 RWBK) + 60pts (2 Bikers) + 15pts (saved from Libby)... 115pts... If RW Apothecary you get the plasma talons back from the guy you lost from the RWBKs but the bike squad are less effective, but you aren't losing obsec... ? The chapter master rerolls get assigned in the command phase and Belial is always going to be with DW squads isnt he, where as the Jump Master has mobility... Just some more into the mixing bowl Im not sure what your termy load out was going to be, but I did see something awhile ago that said actually Relic shooty TDA, are the most.point efficient version of TDA. You may be able to squeeze a few points out that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberC1 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Belial continues to grant re roll ones as a normal master. For the original detachment, were you not able to deep strike the formation due to the apothecary? I’d recommend finding a way to take the ravenwing apothecary, the ability to bring back bikes and terminators is worth its weight in gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G8Keeper Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Belial continues to grant re roll ones as a normal master. For the original detachment, were you not able to deep strike the formation due to the apothecary? I’d recommend finding a way to take the ravenwing apothecary, the ability to bring back bikes and terminators is worth its weight in gold. I was wondering this myself after a re-read just. Alternatively upgrade him to a DW Apothecary if he really must deep strike? You could mess around with changes in wargear to free up the points, depending on what you've got on your tacticals etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 (edited) It has to be the librarian. denying OBSEC is unbelievably powerful. The only time it isn't going to produce a swing in the primary score is if you are down by 2+ objectives. In any other situation, it's going to get you points (only if it breaks a tie) or cost him points. No way that even the most excellent challenge monkey in the game can match that impact. Edited April 11, 2021 by march10k G8Keeper and bigtrouble 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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