Any reasonable chance we’ll see a non cult-legion codex?

[Lucerne]

GW is never going to stop spewing out Primaris releases while keeping that range half-baked and copypaste.

 

At this point I've basically given up on GW making non-cult legion upgrade sprues (even just shoulders and heads) and on cult legions in the next 2 years.

[Schurge]

@Lucerne Christmas 2021: Alpha Legion gets their first official codex, but it is a Primaris codex because Alpha Legion like to pretend to be loyalists. 

[Lucerne]

@Lucerne Christmas 2021: Alpha Legion gets their first official codex, but it is a Primaris codex because Alpha Legion like to pretend to be loyalists. 

At this point I'd take it if the damn models line up. God knows RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Lucerne

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

@Lucerne Christmas 2021: Alpha Legion gets their first official codex, but it is a Primaris codex because Alpha Legion like to pretend to be loyalists. 

At this point I'd take it if the damn models line up. God knows RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

 

Not sure I buy that.  AL's Faith and Fury rules are excellent.  

[Slave to Darkness]

Im a man of simple pleasures, gimme Marduk and some passable rules for Word Bearers and I'll be happy. 

[Sarvis]

Word Bears work well with all the newly updated sculpts for sure, but some of the others could do with a little more diversification

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

@Lucerne Christmas 2021: Alpha Legion gets their first official codex, but it is a Primaris codex because Alpha Legion like to pretend to be loyalists. 

At this point I'd take it if the damn models line up. God knows RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

 

Not sure I buy that.  AL's Faith and Fury rules are excellent.  

 

 

Oh, I agree.  I think they're wonderful, but fluffy and utilitarian.  I hope we keep all of the strats in particular once our codex lands.

[Sarvis]

I wasn’t involved in the hoppy when the primarchs came out, what was the timing of the spacing between them? It’s seems like the three we have came out very quickly, and now we’re in this lull of several years where we haven’t even gotten a hint of what’s coming

[Marshal Loss]

I wasn’t involved in the hoppy when the primarchs came out, what was the timing of the spacing between them? It’s seems like the three we have came out very quickly, and now we’re in this lull of several years where we haven’t even gotten a hint of what’s coming

All 3 existing Primarchs came out in under a year. Magnus came out in Q3 2016, Guilliman in Q1 2017, and Mortarion in Q3 2017 (though he was first teased at the end of Q1). 10 months or so, give or take.

 

There's not a lot of information on "why" things happened the way they did. GW have gone on the record as saying that they're not in any rush to release more Loyalist Primarchs though, & that the DG release was a model for "future Legion releases". Honestly I think it comes down at least in part to the fact that 40k is doing so well that they don't need these giant figures to spur on sales, so why rush them?

 

A loyalist Primarch returning is much more of a status changer than a traitor returning though, so fingers crossed

[Lucerne]

 

 

@Lucerne Christmas 2021: Alpha Legion gets their first official codex, but it is a Primaris codex because Alpha Legion like to pretend to be loyalists. 

At this point I'd take it if the damn models line up. God knows RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

 

Not sure I buy that.  AL's Faith and Fury rules are excellent.  

 

Barely paying lip service to snipers, cultists being at best a clumsy counts-as for operatives, the whole make up of the codex being closer to Codex Black Legion or Codex Red Corsairs than something truly representative...

 

Meanwhile RG have more flavors of operator/scout/saboteur than can be reasonably taken in a list, don't have to take daemons every other unit entry, still have carapace armoured semi-humans even if they've been shunted off into elites and most importantly aren't struggling uphill against their own codex to properly represent a force of infiltrators and saboteurs whose reliance is on their own skill rather than random warp gribblies. Loyalists even get more options in-codex for Heresy units!

 

I mean, if you feel the codex isn't putting a square peg in a round hole for the more divergent Legions, that's fine, but I just feel the Codex emphasis is not and never will be on giving the less "standard" Legions the unit variations and wargear that fits- and relics by definition don't work for the latter. (and in many ways fitting everyone into the same mold has been the emphasis since 4e).

 

Maybe if there are sniper rifles in a hypothetical Chosen boxed set in future or GW at least remembers options that aren't daemonic should exist for CSM when it comes to adding new content? At this point, I'd expect a fluffy AL option to not be based on codex CSM so much as if and when we get to take CSM in a non-existent renegade guard list- because even GW couldn't screw that up too badly.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Lucerne

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

@Lucerne Christmas 2021: Alpha Legion gets their first official codex, but it is a Primaris codex because Alpha Legion like to pretend to be loyalists. 

At this point I'd take it if the damn models line up. God knows RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

 

Not sure I buy that.  AL's Faith and Fury rules are excellent.  

 

Barely paying lip service to snipers, cultists being at best a clumsy counts-as for operatives, the whole make up of the codex being closer to Codex Black Legion or Codex Red Corsairs than something truly representative...

 

Meanwhile RG have more flavors of operator/scout/saboteur than can be reasonably taken in a list, don't have to take daemons every other unit entry, still have carapace armoured semi-humans even if they've been shunted off into elites and most importantly aren't struggling uphill against their own codex to properly represent a force of infiltrators and saboteurs whose reliance is on their own skill rather than random warp gribblies. Loyalists even get more options in-codex for Heresy units!

 

I mean, if you feel the codex isn't putting a square peg in a round hole for the more divergent Legions, that's fine, but I just feel the Codex emphasis is not and never will be on giving the less "standard" Legions the unit variations and wargear that fits- and relics by definition don't work for the latter. (and in many ways fitting everyone into the same mold has been the emphasis since 4e).

 

Maybe if there are sniper rifles in a hypothetical Chosen boxed set in future or GW at least remembers options that aren't daemonic should exist for CSM when it comes to adding new content? At this point, I'd expect a fluffy AL option to not be based on codex CSM so much as if and when we get to take CSM in a non-existent renegade guard list- because even GW couldn't screw that up too badly.

 

Considering that CSM did not get a 2nd codex (2.0 is BS so stop typing you pedants!)  there wasn't much to work with.  Taking that into account, the AL stratagems are very good and play to their fluff.  It certainly wouldn't satisfy the guy with the AL tattoo but I dont think any of the content of Faith and Fury did that for any legion fans.  

[Archaeinox]

not enough people play chaos for GW to invest heavily in them like loyalist marines.

 

 

Yes I am inclined to agree with you but we all saw Thousand Sons come out of nowhere and nobody really played them. There's no way GW was like "dang we sure do sell a lot of these hybrid CSM & Rubric Marine Upgrade Kit boxes! Let's make them a full faction" so that just confuses the heck out of me.

 

I'm absolutely shocked that Emperor's Children don't have their own book and line by now. It certainly should have taken precedent over the AoS Slaanesh mortals army.........................................................

 

Horus Heresy books definitely made Legion Love go crazy so I'd love to see some heavy support for Iron Warriors. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Archaeinox

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

not enough people play chaos for GW to invest heavily in them like loyalist marines.

 

Yes I am inclined to agree with you but we all saw Thousand Sons come out of nowhere and nobody really played them. There's no way GW was like "dang we sure do sell a lot of these hybrid CSM & Rubric Marine Upgrade Kit boxes! Let's make them a full faction" so that just confuses the heck out of me.

 

I'm absolutely shocked that Emperor's Children don't have their own book and line by now. It certainly should have taken precedent over the AoS Slaanesh mortals army.........................................................

 

Horus Heresy books definitely made Legion Love go crazy so I'd love to see some heavy support for Iron Warriors.

Don't get me wrong, after loyalist space marines, chaos are the next most popular faction(s). If they make stuff for them, they will sell and make money and even bring in new chaos players, but not at the rate loyalist and Primaris do, so they have to milk that first.

 

To game$ work$hop it's all about the money. The opportunity cost of resources that could be pumped into individual supplements for chaos marines would in the end obviously make money, but not as much as just bringing out more Primaris, or even redoing the 6 loyalist supplements from 8th edition, so while chaos supplements would make money, they could make even more money with the same resources elsewhere. Now obviously this isn't always the case, or we wouldn't really even have xenos, but since 8th it's obviously been the trend.

 

And I feel the 4 cult Legions will have a larger following than any of the 5 others. Instead of thousand sons if it was let's say nightlords, I don't think as many people would have jumped on board. My opinion of course, could be wrong. Primarchs push sales, thats for sure. My friend I've been trying to get into the hobby (he does 3d modeling so you would think this hobby was up his ally) loves the magnus model and wants to get him to just paint. Trying to get him sucked in haha.

[Tokugawa]

There were also quite few Iron hands players before the crazy 2019 codex.

[Malios]

It’s just strange watching AoS getting approximately 2-3 NEW armies a year(!), yet seeing so much potential in the chaos range (EC, WE, Lost & the Damned, True Mechanicum, etc.) and xenos(won’t get into that). Watching AoS have multiple new beautiful model ranges dropped multiple times a year is disheartening when there is already so much easy and fantastic inspiration for several chaos ranges that many have been begging for for years

Its not fair to compare apples and oranges. Comparing 40k to AoS is a similar concept: both have different design philosophies and marketing philosophies.

 

AoS releases smaller army ranges because those armies have a limited size and sales shelf life. They're also new to AoS The fluff will write them out eventually, or evolve them accordingly with time to keep sales turn over. The annual general's handbook supports that notion.

 

40k in comparison has 30 years of miniatures and faction development and bloat: there are a broad spectrum of kits pushing 20+ years old still being sold (termagaunts, eldar guardians and dire avengers, catachans, some chaos marine heroes, legion upgrade kits etc) because GW won't drop them. The hysteria when primaris marines were released and the imminent fear of 25 years of space marine collections becoming redundant for example.

 

As for Chaos (and to get my post back on track), I'm one of a minority who was disappointed that GW crept backwards to the concept of Legions as defining chaos' identity in 40k. I truly despised the 3.5 codex for setting that expectation amongst the community, even if the narrative is swinging back that way with the daemon primarchs and wayward sons suddenly caring about their legions again.

 

The difference for me from their loyalist counterparts is the individualism of chaos marines as they strode the path to glory (or damnation.) The concept of broken warbands from the rogue trader + 2nd edition era personified this.

 

But, times change. Design philosophies change. Community expectations change. I need to get with the times.

 

For Chaos' sake I hope they get atleast something to reflect a faction just as diverse as their loyalist counter parts. If it has to be a legion that identifies that character, then so be it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Having Legion Traits is not mutually exclusive to the broken warband idea.  Legion Traits dictate how your army fights, not how it's organized.

[Archaeinox]

 

[...] RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

 

 

Currently, if you build tables "right," AL suffer from what Thousand Sons suffered from in 5th and 6th ed: The presence of terrain negated an ability they pay for. For TSons it was Ap3 bolters. If marines were in cover, they just laughed at your bolters. If AL are in Dense Cover, theyre wasting their thing, right? So yeah I agree. 

 

I hope the next CSM book is as extensive as the space marines book. I hope choosing a CSM legion within that publication incentivizes you to keep doing it, and that there is no clear winner among the legions...

[WrathOfTheLion]

A big problem is that there are many Legions that don't even have a single named character, like Word Bearers. I'd like to see them add a unique character sculpt to each legion. At least get that ball rolling.

[Goreshed]

@Malios - I can understand the sentiment and I think there would be more support for such a thing if they had something across the board. But when you have it in such a state that other armies have distinct bonuses for how an army is painted (and in previous editions: how it was composed) and then one side not (re: Chaos) it really is a punch in the warp taint in the table (even if we have the best conversions/paint schemes in my humble opinion....). But as you have said that is an older philosophy and not with the current times.

 

@WrathOfTheLion - Special characters are making something of a comeback, which I would agree with wholeheartedly as an Iron Warriors player, however I doubt GW would do such a thing. If we could simply get back to getting the conversion kits I would be extremely happy with that. I truly wish there were more special characters, specially for those Legions not apart of the Big Four, but that is simply a wish that will most likely never be seen in our lifetimes.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

 

[...] RG are a better take on AL than the AL's own ruleset for 40k.

 

Currently, if you build tables "right," AL suffer from what Thousand Sons suffered from in 5th and 6th ed: The presence of terrain negated an ability they pay for. For TSons it was Ap3 bolters. If marines were in cover, they just laughed at your bolters. If AL are in Dense Cover, theyre wasting their thing, right? So yeah I agree.

 

I hope the next CSM book is as extensive as the space marines book. I hope choosing a CSM legion within that publication incentivizes you to keep doing it, and that there is no clear winner among the legions...

If they're in Dense Cover and *outside 12 inches of the enemy shooting at them* then yes, their ability is redundant. That's also a pretty specific set of circumstances. Tactically, ourvtrait means you don't *need* to go into Dense Cover at longer ranges, giving you more freedom of maneuver with your infantry elements.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Do you guys think they are saving chaos space marines close to last for a big reveal? Probably won't be a non cult legion, but either WE or EC could break off? Obviously you would have to save the main chaos marines codex for just before it otherwise the omission of said legion would be a dead giveaway. That would be neat.

[Marshal Loss]

Do you guys think they are saving chaos space marines close to last for a big reveal? Probably won't be a non cult legion, but either WE or EC could break off? Obviously you would have to save the main chaos marines codex for just before it otherwise the omission of said legion would be a dead giveaway. That would be neat.

 

Been saying this for a while, but I think that CSM are being held back because it's going to be a big release (bigger than a single model + book, anyway). Whether that entails a 2.0 wave to build off what we got in 2019, or a Primarch (EC/WE), I'm not sure, but it makes sense to me that GW would want to stagger books to avoid fatigue.

 

Pure supposition, but I'm reasonably confident.

[Sarvis]

Do you guys think they are saving chaos space marines close to last for a big reveal? Probably won't be a non cult legion, but either WE or EC could break off? Obviously you would have to save the main chaos marines codex for just before it otherwise the omission of said legion would be a dead giveaway. That would be neat.

I thought of this same thing 10 minutes ago. Would make sense for why we’ve been hearing radio static about chaos. Maybe they’ll hit us with the codex eventually and just before it drops, announce WE for the following codex w/ new range.

[Kythnos]

In any case, with the trailer for TS and GK it seems reasonable to assume that CSM will be the last of the existing astartes codices to get updated in 9th.

 

That certainly leaves room to drop new CSM legion books in its wake.

I just hope they do not publish another legion book before updating our codex first. The discrepancies with the shared units between different Chaos books are only going to increase with a new TS codex, which is frustrating at times.

[Snazzy]

Anything is possible.  Going by the size of the Loyalist Codex, there's no reason why you couldn't have the Traitor Legions, Renegades and other bits and bos of mortal Chaos stuff in one book.

 

Then again, the age of the Khorne Berserker models, and our own current rules spread across so many books makes me think there is no larger plan.