Autocannon vs heavy bolter

[domsto]

 

 

 

But to be total honest, isn't this all just theorycrafting? As the only unit i can think of that has a choice between AC or HB are Heavy Weapon Teams.

Whilst this is true, you do have to factor in the impact between units with only heavy bolters or only autocannons. As changing one to be better than the other could completely shift the meta to the other unit type being preferred.

 

You have to remember that Chaos and GSC are also big users of autocannons. So any changes would also affect them.

What you are saying is pretty much what i said in the first Part of my Comment.

The HB makes the Autocannon obsolote, but if you buff the AC the HB might become obsolete.

So IMO the only way to fix this issue GW made themselfs is to change the HB back to D1 but with 4-5Shots.

So the AC would remain the light Antitank Gun and the HB would become the 40k equivalent of the 50 Cal. it should always has been.

[War Angel]

 

 

 

 

But to be total honest, isn't this all just theorycrafting? As the only unit i can think of that has a choice between AC or HB are Heavy Weapon Teams.

Whilst this is true, you do have to factor in the impact between units with only heavy bolters or only autocannons. As changing one to be better than the other could completely shift the meta to the other unit type being preferred.

 

You have to remember that Chaos and GSC are also big users of autocannons. So any changes would also affect them.

What you are saying is pretty much what i said in the first Part of my Comment.

The HB makes the Autocannon obsolote, but if you buff the AC the HB might become obsolete.

So IMO the only way to fix this issue GW made themselfs is to change the HB back to D1 but with 4-5Shots.

So the AC would remain the light Antitank Gun and the HB would become the 40k equivalent of the 50 Cal. it should always has been.

Infantry squads, command squads, and veteran squads.

 

And a 50 cal is not the right example for what your trying to say. A 50 cal isn’t a Weapon, it’s a round size, used in both sniper rifles and HMG’s. Not only does it have more piercing power (AP) punch (strength) it also causes more destruction to what it hits (damage) with a single round being able to rip off limbs. Right now the heavy bolters stats compared to a normal bolter IS a “50 cal”. (Also worth noting, somewhere it is stated that a boltgun round is a 50 cal.)

 

Altering the stats of a heavy bolter is a poor option for GW, as it would effect other armies with weapons not available to us, putting them in the same situation as the AC and HB. The space marine heavy intercessors would have to have their entire arsenal reworked, as many of the weapons would now completely overlap each other. The hellstorm heavy bolter already has 4 shots, AND its 2D.

 

A more likely solution is to not change the attacks characteristic of the AC, and instead change its damage characteristic. D3 would make both weapons capable of doing the same amount of damage, but one would be doing that damage spread out over multiple targets. This would of course make the AC only situationally better, out performing the HB when the target has 5 or 6 toughness, or 4 wounds (one unsaved wound per kill as opposed to 1.5 per kill). Possibly adding an additional AP would clarify the difference between the two, one Anti infantry, the other anti light vehicles/ heavy infantry. But That could also be too much of a change. I’ll let someone else do the math on that.

[Phubar]

Too much changes in the wound roll and ap mechanics made the balance and most of all the variety a pain.

Sorry but i see no future in hb/ac difference unless the ac will be made too much similar to missile launcher

[domsto]

Infantry squads, command squads, and veteran squads.

 

And a 50 cal is not the right example for what your trying to say. A 50 cal isn’t a Weapon, it’s a round size, used in both sniper rifles and HMG’s. Not only does it have more piercing power (AP) punch (strength) it also causes more destruction to what it hits (damage) with a single round being able to rip off limbs. Right now the heavy bolters stats compared to a normal bolter IS a “50 cal”. (Also worth noting, somewhere it is stated that a boltgun round is a 50 cal.)

 

Altering the stats of a heavy bolter is a poor option for GW, as it would effect other armies with weapons not available to us, putting them in the same situation as the AC and HB. The space marine heavy intercessors would have to have their entire arsenal reworked, as many of the weapons would now completely overlap each other. The hellstorm heavy bolter already has 4 shots, AND its 2D.

 

A more likely solution is to not change the attacks characteristic of the AC, and instead change its damage characteristic. D3 would make both weapons capable of doing the same amount of damage, but one would be doing that damage spread out over multiple targets. This would of course make the AC only situationally better, out performing the HB when the target has 5 or 6 toughness, or 4 wounds (one unsaved wound per kill as opposed to 1.5 per kill). Possibly adding an additional AP would clarify the difference between the two, one Anti infantry, the other anti light vehicles/ heavy infantry. But That could also be too much of a change. I’ll let someone else do the math on that.

I meant the 50 Cal. HMGs

And i tried to say that the HB Bolter round is to a normal Bolter Round like a 50 Cal. to a standard Assault Rifle Round in the real World.

 

Also i know that GW will not change the Heavy Bolter at this Point back, but i am still of the Opinion that the Damage boost should never have been done in the First Place.

It startet this whole chain reaction of making one Weapon obsolete by buffing another into a role it shouldn be in.

If you buff the AC to the Rocket Launcher might become obsolete, and if you buff the Rocket Launcher,....

So the most likely Option that will happen is for GW to say  it and let the AC remain obsolete. It isn't the first time such a thing happens and won't be the last time.

Edited April 20, 2021 by WarriorFish
Do not dodge the swear filter

[War Angel]

Missile launcher is strentgh 8, ap -1, D6 damage.

Lascannon is strength 9, ap -3, D6 damage.

 

Both cost the same points right now (probably shouldn’t to be honest) the only thing the missile launcher has going for it is the ability to fire a frag missile for use against hordes (does anyone ever do that though?)

 

Making the AC str 7, ap-1, D3 doesn’t actually step on anyone else’s toes, the lower strength, lower AP and average lower damage makes it not as powerful as a lascannon. It doesn’t have the versatility of a missile launcher. Etc. though, both the lascannon and missile launcher could probably still use a buff. Big D6 damage weapons that only roll a 1 or 2 are really saddening. Would be nice to have the strongest weapons in the game not be beat out by a heavy bolter one third of the time.

[Shamansky]

str 7, ap-1, D3 would still be not convincing with only 2 shots. 

[Mordian Glory]

I think making it a flat damage 3 would be very good at giving it a role as an anti gravis/death guard weapon,which would be a great anti meta weapon and give the autocannon a niche role!

[Squike]

Missile launcher is strentgh 8, ap -1, D6 damage.

Lascannon is strength 9, ap -3, D6 damage.

 

Both cost the same points right now (probably shouldn’t to be honest) the only thing the missile launcher has going for it is the ability to fire a frag missile for use against hordes (does anyone ever do that though?)

 

Making the AC str 7, ap-1, D3 doesn’t actually step on anyone else’s toes, the lower strength, lower AP and average lower damage makes it not as powerful as a lascannon. It doesn’t have the versatility of a missile launcher. Etc. though, both the lascannon and missile launcher could probably still use a buff. Big D6 damage weapons that only roll a 1 or 2 are really saddening. Would be nice to have the strongest weapons in the game not be beat out by a heavy bolter one third of the time.

 

I thought Missile Launcher was S8, AP-2, Dd6,

 

and I also agree that Autocannons at S7, AP-1, D3 would be a nice tool against Gravis, Bikes, Terminators and other newly buffed units coinciding with the tac marine +1W increase.

I would like it to be AP-2 but I think that could be just asking too much....

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

But to be total honest, isn't this all just theorycrafting? As the only unit i can think of that has a choice between AC or HB are Heavy Weapon Teams.

Whilst this is true, you do have to factor in the impact between units with only heavy bolters or only autocannons. As changing one to be better than the other could completely shift the meta to the other unit type being preferred.

 

You have to remember that Chaos and GSC are also big users of autocannons. So any changes would also affect them.

What you are saying is pretty much what i said in the first Part of my Comment.

The HB makes the Autocannon obsolote, but if you buff the AC the HB might become obsolete.

So IMO the only way to fix this issue GW made themselfs is to change the HB back to D1 but with 4-5Shots.

So the AC would remain the light Antitank Gun and the HB would become the 40k equivalent of the 50 Cal. it should always has been.

Infantry squads, command squads, and veteran squads.

 

And a 50 cal is not the right example for what your trying to say. A 50 cal isn’t a Weapon, it’s a round size, used in both sniper rifles and HMG’s. Not only does it have more piercing power (AP) punch (strength) it also causes more destruction to what it hits (damage) with a single round being able to rip off limbs. Right now the heavy bolters stats compared to a normal bolter IS a “50 cal”. (Also worth noting, somewhere it is stated that a boltgun round is a 50 cal.)

 

Altering the stats of a heavy bolter is a poor option for GW, as it would effect other armies with weapons not available to us, putting them in the same situation as the AC and HB. The space marine heavy intercessors would have to have their entire arsenal reworked, as many of the weapons would now completely overlap each other. The hellstorm heavy bolter already has 4 shots, AND its 2D.

 

A more likely solution is to not change the attacks characteristic of the AC, and instead change its damage characteristic. D3 would make both weapons capable of doing the same amount of damage, but one would be doing that damage spread out over multiple targets. This would of course make the AC only situationally better, out performing the HB when the target has 5 or 6 toughness, or 4 wounds (one unsaved wound per kill as opposed to 1.5 per kill). Possibly adding an additional AP would clarify the difference between the two, one Anti infantry, the other anti light vehicles/ heavy infantry. But That could also be too much of a change. I’ll let someone else do the math on that.

did you really just claim .50 tears off limbs? That's a myth I haven't heard before, and you k is what they meant when they said .50cal, so don't try to redirect from that.

 

Yes a .50 can be an anti-material weapon, it will chew up Y armored vehicles like a 6x6 or 8x8, and even most vehicles with improvised armor, but a CS .50 HMG is in no way a weapon used to fight light armor.

 

HB is supposed to be a rough equivalent to an M2 or a dshk, while the autocannon is a rough equivalent to the m242.

 

So ya, the HB buff should have be 1 extra shot to maintain the difference in roll between them, though the HB would likely still be more effective against T8 vehicles since both are wounding on the same 5+

 

You seem to be confusing fluff with game mechanics. Canonically bolters are 30-40mm grenade launcher. Making the HB basically a mk19

 

Game wise they're more like full battle rifles like the FAL, or M14. Where as the lasgun is an intermediate rifle like the M16 family.

 

Hell lore wise the guard doesn't even really use the HB or autocannon with infantry unless it's in a static defensive position.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[duz_]

Let's keep it civil gents.

 

Dont forget although the real world might give us a very rough reference point 40k rarely reflect reality. It is 40,000 years in the future after all ;)

[sairence]

Let s be frank, the reason HBs went to D2 instead of more shots is because everyone and their mother has access to them and Marines went to 2 wounds. So now pretty much everyone in the Imperium still has a cheap anti-marine weapon. ACs probably didn't factor into that because they are seen as light anti-vehicle weapons, so any buffs they may or may not get will be in line with that.

[duz_]

Gents if we can't stop discussing the nuances of 21st millennia ordinance or be civil I can only conclude were finished the main discussion of this thread and will close it.

 

Final warning.

[War Angel]

To my understanding, and I think it’s mentioned in the old RPG’s, maybe the new ones too; space marine bolters are different from the bolters used by guardsmen. I don’t know where sisters bolters fit in.

 

I actually made spent casings to add to my models, used the guardsmen heavy weapons team kit for reference. The auto cannon round is at least double the heavy bolter round. I think your pretty accurate to compare it to a bushmaster, possibly a little bigger.

 

This is still comparing the two weapons, so it’s acceptable right?

[Warhead01]

I think there is an issue between the Heavy Bolter and the Autto cannon. 
With out looking I can't say, are they the same costs? And is it a Strength, damage or number attacks that is the actual problem, if not the points. 
It seems to me to be more of a matter of where does it fit in and how so that it doesn't devalue the other. I like the D3 damage idea and depending on the points I might push it slightly further. say D3 but never less than a 2 so 2 and maybe 3 damage some of the time. I don't know if that even a good idea or not. I can't say I want to see it moved up to a flat 3. I have thought for a long time that 2 shots was too few so maybe so few shots is a reason to pip it up to a flat 3. But then we have to look at the points for that vs a Heavy bolter. 
Is ST7 too low now? Maybe or maybe not. This weapons is kinda in a weird spot. I see it as targeting light vehicles as that would be more desirable than targeting most infantry. 
Just occurs to me that a whole other mechanic might be useful if not practical. But a second rate of fire when targeting infantry, more shots less damage. The we end up with more rules to read/remember. And is that even consistent with 9th ed 40K?  I know streamlined rules are in style so my ideas are probably not going to jive with that.

 

[War Angel]

I think there is an issue between the Heavy Bolter and the Autto cannon. 

With out looking I can't say, are they the same costs? And is it a Strength, damage or number attacks that is the actual problem, if not the points. 

It seems to me to be more of a matter of where does it fit in and how so that it doesn't devalue the other. I like the D3 damage idea and depending on the points I might push it slightly further. say D3 but never less than a 2 so 2 and maybe 3 damage some of the time. I don't know if that even a good idea or not. I can't say I want to see it moved up to a flat 3. I have thought for a long time that 2 shots was too few so maybe so few shots is a reason to pip it up to a flat 3. But then we have to look at the points for that vs a Heavy bolter. 

Is ST7 too low now? Maybe or maybe not. This weapons is kinda in a weird spot. I see it as targeting light vehicles as that would be more desirable than targeting most infantry. 

Just occurs to me that a whole other mechanic might be useful if not practical. But a second rate of fire when targeting infantry, more shots less damage. The we end up with more rules to read/remember. And is that even consistent with 9th ed 40K?  I know streamlined rules are in style so my ideas are probably not going to jive with that.

 

They’re the same points, so if one is statistically better, it’s just better. With that in mind, when I said D3 i meant to say 3D, that’s my bad. Worth noting, in Mordian glory’s video yesterday he brought up that S7 now has an advantage against a target, as dark eldar have a slew of T6 vehicles, which having a 3 to wound vs a 5 is a big enough swing that the extra shot is statistically better.

[Closet Skeleton]

To my understanding, and I think it’s mentioned in the old RPG’s, maybe the new ones too; space marine bolters are different from the bolters used by guardsmen. I don’t know where sisters bolters fit in.

 

Which sounds like RPG designers over thinking things.

 

If you compare models then Lascannons and autocannons are clearly game abstractions that cover a wide variety of different barrels but there's more difference between different heresy era marine bolter patterns than between a 41st millenium Catachan bolter and a marine one. I think there's currently only one actual official Guard bolter still on sale and its in the catachan command squad.

 

Bolters aren't regular issue guard weapons but rather something exceptional guardsmen use to show off, there's no logical reason for a lower caliber guardsman bolter because 40k operates on 'rule of badass' logic where some individuals are just badass enough to mis-use weapons not designed for personal use.

 

If you compare 2nd ed models then Basilisk Earthshaker rounds are smaller than weapon team mortar rounds so I guess sculpts aren't that reliable. Plastic weapon team mortar rounds are far more sensibly sized.

[Brother Tyler]

Just wondering if I'm the only one who has been feeling that the hvy bolter buff of 9th was also a shadow nerf of the autocannon.

 

Heavy2 S7 D1 AP-1 vs Heavy3 S5 D2.

 

Autocannon has been a weapon for dealing with elite infantry, and light vehicles, but the HB buff seems to completely blow the AC away in dealing with elite infantry and more or less an even trade off against light vehicles.

 

Let's take a Primaris Agressor as an example.

 

50-50 chance of wounding, and 2 hits provides 4 wounds only 3 are needed to kill an aggressor.

 

An autocannon has a 75% ish chance to wound after scoring a hit, but it's impossible for a single autocannon to kill that same aggressor in a single round of shooting. Not sure really how much that AP-1 closes the gap, but it still remains impossible for a single autocannon to kill an aggressor.

 

jarms48 posted the correct stats for each of the weapons. Inquisitor-Lensoven's example (and conclusion) is based on incorrect information. 

The heavy bolter is:

36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2

 

The autocannon is:

48" Heavy 2 S7 AP-1 D2

 

If I recall, the autocannon performs similar to the heavy bolter against T5 and T7. The autocannon also outperforms the heavy bolter against T6 but loses against T3, T4, and T8. So the heavy bolter is typically the better option against most threats.

The autocannon can kill an aggressor (and most other non-CHARACTER Adeptus/Heretic Astartes models). More importantly, the autocannon can reach out and touch the aggressor before the heavy bolter can, potentially getting an extra round of shooting in. That certainly adjusts the statistical analysis.

 

Both weapons cost 10 points and have the same AP (-1) and D (2). The tradeoff is in the other three areas (Range, Strength, and ROF). The autocannon has both greater range and strength than the heavy bolter. The trick to the autocannon is using it so that its increased range offsets the decreased ROF, either setting it further back than the heavy bolter or using it against targets that the heavy bolter can't reach (assuming they're more valuable than targets that are closer).

 

While I tend to agree with the gut feeling conclusion that the heavy bolter is more useful under general conditions, it would be worth it to see someone work out a statistically valid comparison of the two weapons under various conditions rather than the single case we've been given so far (the aggressor, using incorrect data).

[Commander_Moustache]

I think adding in either an extra point of Damage or AP is the best way to go with the AC. Damage would be the better one clearly but even an extra point of AP may be enough depending on the local meta since there are a few armies that just flat out ignore AP -1 and a lot of those armies that spring to mind, contain units where the extra S also comes into play.

[Commander_Moustache]

Well now that Orks are gonna be T5 I think Autocannons may have some worth once more.

[OldWherewolf]

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it. On average, the HB does 1.5W against a T5 ork, but an AC does 1.33.  Where an AC wins over the HB is against T6, which could very well be bikers and buggies, but against T7 the HB ties the AC.  So unless Orks come in with a slew of T6, I think the HB still wins. 

[domsto]

Since the Gaunts Ghosts preview from Today it seems that the Autocannon remains at it old Stats when the 9.Ed Guard Codex drops.

So the Heavy Bolter remains the far better Weapon for every Unit who can choose between them

Edited June 8, 2021 by domsto