Volkite weapons incoming

[Sherrypie]

But it is obvious, by English language and convention in the rules corpus. There are multiple examples in the rules where if every hit is meant, the wording is "for every hit". With Voidbreaker, that's not even close to what the rule says. Also, the dice in an attack are explicitly not handled one at a time like they'd be in, say, 40k, because the whole system of shield saves and damage rolls in this game is built on them being a single entity.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

I love the people on Facebook or wherever saying "you get 2 bonus per hit". No, it's really obvious,

I really don’t think it’s that obvious. “Hits” and “attacks” are different things and the void breaker rules don’t mention “attacks” at all. The problem with the rule is the ambiguity of “if a... weapon hits.” They took a noun (hit) with clear context in the rest of the rules and used it as a verb (hits), which creates two possible interpretations of the word as a noun: 1) when any hits are scored or 2) when a hit is scored. The first is the interpretation that most of the community read and would result in additional saves per successful attack. The second is how warcom interpreted it and would result additional saves per successful hit. I think the intent of the rule is the second, as they would have specified an attack (the overall action) instead of just hits, and it’s obvious that the person developing the rules for the individual weapons thinks it’s interpretation number 2 as well... it needs clarification in an FAQ

What sherrypie said. The wording ties into the mechanics of the game in a specific way and is written in a way that sets it apart from "per hit" effects like rapid. The only people that tend to think differently are those that don't play and just read warcom's summary of the rule.

 

 

 

Side note, I was sure we were going to see the warmaster on this month's engine kill article. I'm a little worried it's going to be May for its full release due to how they structure their release periods.

[Mandragola]

I think I'm 90% sure that it's extra saves per attack rather than per hit. However, I think unfortunately that it's something that needs a FAQ.

 

The wording is "If a voidbreaker weapon hits..." then you get the extra saves. "If" is an unusual word to use because to me it's pretty unclear what exactly they mean. My interpretation is that they mean "if any of the attacks shots hit". However, it wouldn't be mad to interpret it as "if you get a hit, you get the extra saves", and in that case you'd probably get the extra times multiple times with multiple hits... I think.

 

So the thing is probably to send them an email. I'll do that and see what they say.

 

Hold the front page!

 

The WHC article seems to have been edited. It now reads:

What Do They Do?

 

Basically, volkite weapons destroy void shields at close ranges. Both the eradicator and the destructor use three dice per attack, with a range of 20” for the former and 24” for the latter. They have the Voidbreaker (2) trait, meaning that if at least 1 hit is scored, the target has to roll an additional 2 shield saves. Even a formidably shielded Warmaster Heavy Battle Titan could potentially be stripped of all its protection by a single volley.

 

So that's pretty clear I think. It's the extra saves if any hits are scored. Someone who knew what they were talking about obviously got to read the WHC article and then made them change it.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Honestly, given that in 28mm heresy, the heavy weapon volkite culverin has the same range as a lascannon, I was kinda hoping any titan-mounted volkite would fill the 'mid-ranged' shield stripping vacancy, with something akin to the 16/32" turbolaser range. Give it permanent shieldbane and you've actually got something that's worth taking with the current profile compared to the long and short ranged shield-stripping alternatives (at least for the eradicator).

 

One interesting (but pretty impractical use) is with the destructor in an Extergimus maniple - pushing for the Beam rule & taking the extra heat for Scorched Earth would let you have 3 auto-hitting strength 8 targeted hits which would be a neat way to easily finish off a damaged titan - admittedly you're suffering 1-3 heat to do so, but could come in clutch in specific circumstances. 

[The boater]

No, rapid is different because it changes the convention for determining how many hits an attack has generated. Voidbreaker changes the convention for saving against hits. Saving throws for for dice in the hit pool (ie: hits) happen independently of each other, but at the same time. That means that voidbreaker should trigger for every dice in the hit pool.

 

In the context of the shooting rules: “hit” = a dice in the hit pool and “hits” = adding a dice to the hit pool. So if (read as “when”) a dice is added to the hit pool by a voidbreaker weapon, extra saves are taken when you resolve that hit.

 

This is opposed to the reading of the concussive trait where: if an attack... scores any hits... (add effect). If the designers wanted the effect to trigger by a successful attack they would have written it that way.

 

 

Edit: Just saw the edit WHC made to the page. It’s odd that someone had them change that wording, but then didn’t have them get rid of the next sentence... cause you would have to have at least 6 saving thrown to drop voids on a warmaster. Oh well, I guess we will just have to wait for a FAQ. In the meantime I sent them an email asking for clarification...

Edited March 26, 2021 by The boater

[Mandragola]

Edit: Just saw the edit WHC made to the page. It’s odd that someone had them change that wording, but then didn’t have them get rid of the next sentence... cause you would have to have at least 6 saving thrown to drop voids on a warmaster. Oh well, I guess we will just have to wait for a FAQ. In the meantime I sent them an email asking for clarification...

Yeah, they corrected the incorrect rules but not the incorrect tactical advice, either for this or the nonsense about using these guns against knights.

 

I guess let's wait and see what the actual weapon cards of these things say. Then maybe we can decide if they're any good or not. It's possible they'll have other special rules (though I'd expect them to have been mentioned) or hit modifiers.

 

For now I think that in effect they're kind of like slightly worse VMBs and macro gatlings, but arguably cooler looking.

[SkimaskMohawk]

No, rapid is different because it changes the convention for determining how many hits an attack has generated. Voidbreaker changes the convention for saving against hits. Saving throws for for dice in the hit pool (ie: hits) happen independently of each other, but at the same time. That means that voidbreaker should trigger for every dice in the hit pool.

 

In the context of the shooting rules: “hit” = a dice in the hit pool and “hits” = adding a dice to the hit pool. So if (read as “when”) a dice is added to the hit pool by a voidbreaker weapon, extra saves are taken when you resolve that hit.

 

This is opposed to the reading of the concussive trait where: if an attack... scores any hits... (add effect). If the designers wanted the effect to trigger by a successful attack they would have written it that way.

 

 

Edit: Just saw the edit WHC made to the page. It’s odd that someone had them change that wording, but then didn’t have them get rid of the next sentence... cause you would have to have at least 6 saving thrown to drop voids on a warmaster. Oh well, I guess we will just have to wait for a FAQ. In the meantime I sent them an email asking for clarification...

The trigger for voidbreaker is a weapon hitting. That's it. It's not each time a weapon hits, it's if. The hit roll isn't parsed out for each dice either, but rolled all at once. Either the weapon hits or it doesn't.

 

Trying to argue intent and convention honestly falls apart in this game. Concussive's wording can be shortened from "if a concussive weapon scores any hits on a titan" to "if a concussive weapon hits" . You see how it's the same thing, but spell it differently for no reason? The entire rules has sloppy errors like that, ranging from barrage not removing the obscure penalties, quake requiring a quake cannon hit to trigger and "shoots" not being a technical term used for engaging in combat...except for the one time they use it as a throwaway line. I've had a dev answer on Facebook on how Fureans blank-dice awakening trigger doesn't generate heat, except it mechanically has to. Nothing is verbatim consistent like with 9th eds style of rules writing. Leaving us with what each rule says and how much does it function if it's left raw.

[Sherrypie]

The Fureans not getting heat on a blank result is clear in the RAW, though, because it is explained to be due to the pip in the die which then also triggers the awakening due the special symbol. The awakening is a thing that happens after the heat raise and can be triggered independently without the heat. It's not written technically intuitive, but the text does support the correct reading of no heat on the blank side.

[schoon]

Regardless of how the rules turn out in the end - end it seems clear from GW edits that they may still be in flux - I like the way they look, and will certainly get a few.

 

I wonder if there's a Reaver Arm variant...

[Sherrypie]

Oh yes, Volkites are quite pretty. More esoteric death rays is always good for the modelling side.

[General Zodd]

Regardless of how the rules turn out in the end - end it seems clear from GW edits that they may still be in flux - I like the way they look, and will certainly get a few.

 

I wonder if there's a Reaver Arm variant...

Bear in mind the Voidbreaker rules aren’t in flux, they’re in the core rule book and the Styrix already use them*. I understand the argument that says it should get the Voidbreaker bonus per hit not per attack, but given they’ve specifically amended the WarCom article to suggest it’s applied per attack only confirms the reading that the majority of people made when the Styrix came out. I don’t see why they’d change that.

 

*Mind you, I haven’t had a chance to use my Styrix in anger yet, thanks to lockdown, but it’s at least slightly less theoretical at this stage!

Edited March 27, 2021 by General Zodd

[SkimaskMohawk]

The Fureans not getting heat on a blank result is clear in the RAW, though, because it is explained to be due to the pip in the die which then also triggers the awakening due the special symbol. The awakening is a thing that happens after the heat raise and can be triggered independently without the heat. It's not written technically intuitive, but the text does support the correct reading of no heat on the blank side.

That's not at all how it functions sherry. Machine Rage tells you to count both the machine spirit and blank facing as a trigger for awakening.

 

Now when we go to the Awakening section there's a paragraph of clear fluff. The next paragraph starts with;

 

"If a Reactor roll shows the Machine Spirit symbol, the Titan's anima is roused by the crews attempt to push it's reactor beyond its limits."

 

That sentence doesn't actually mean anything from a rules perspective. If you roll a machine spirit you get a blurb of fluff and the sentence ends; theres no mechanical outcome for rolling the symbol.

 

The next sentence says the following;

 

"After advancing the Reactor Status marker, make an immediate Command check for the Titan, interrupting the current Action."

 

You can only make the command check after the reactor is advanced; if its not advanced, there's no command check.

 

The argument for the fureans trait not generating heat is dependant on not having rolled the machine spirit, but the heat trigger isn't actually affected by having rolled that facing; it's a prerequisite for rolling the command.

 

The Awakening rule would need a rewrite for it to function as a no-heat command check for fureans, because RAW right now you take the heat and the test, or if the machine spirit facing was linked with a semi colon instead of a period, it would count as a blank in effect because the command roll is still dependant on the heat being generated, which would be dependant on the machine spirit facing.

 

Technically speaking, Awakening never even happens except with Fureans or other outlying effects because the Machine Spirit roll leads to a fluff sentence and not any actual rules interaction. Fureans tells you straight up the die facings trigger the rule.

 

This is what I mean when I say the intent greatly differs from the RAW in some cases and how boat's comparison of exact wording convention can't be relied on like with say 9ths ruleset.

 

Whew.

Sorry about that, on topic.

 

I think the reaver turret still has potential to be okay even with the handicapped voidbreaker. The deadzone means it can't get quite as personal as a warhound, so the vmb's armour utility takes a hit and is used as a pure shield breaker.

Edited March 28, 2021 by SkimaskMohawk

[DuskRaider]

How is it we have Volkite weaponry in 30K that can easily punch holes through Knights and Titans on Superheavy Tanks but in AT they are weak garbage? We're talking a weapon that is at the very least the same scale as the Felblade variant but somehow it's just... bad?

[schoon]

How is it we have Volkite weaponry in 30K that can easily punch holes through Knights and Titans on Superheavy Tanks but in AT they are weak garbage? We're talking a weapon that is at the very least the same scale as the Felblade variant but somehow it's just... bad?

 

The same reason that we have illustrations of Titans that seem to range from 50 to 500 meters tall...

[Mandragola]

Well as has been pointed out, it isn’t bad. It’s essentially equivalent to a VMB or macro Gatling. Maybe not quite as good, but those are extremely efficient guns.

 

The beam on the warlord’s gun gives you auto-targeted shots. Even at S6 that’s a huge deal and in an Extermigus maniple you could get to S8.

[Noserenda]

I guess Duskraider's point is the Glaive's volkite weapon is a nasty AT capable weapon and even used to make Warhounds flinch until they got haywire immunity. I think thats more of an outlier though, its certainly significantly more dangerous than any other volkite which do tend towards mediocre. 

[DuskRaider]

I guess Duskraider's point is the Glaive's volkite weapon is a nasty AT capable weapon and even used to make Warhounds flinch until they got haywire immunity. I think thats more of an outlier though, its certainly significantly more dangerous than any other volkite which do tend towards mediocre.

Yup, this right here. How is it a tank-sized Volkite is punching through titans but a titan-sized Volkite can't do much other than shut down voidshields? It's terribly inconsistent.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It goes the other way though. 40k porphyrions hit like wet fish. AT Porphyrions are murder turtles.

[Mandragola]

 

I guess Duskraider's point is the Glaive's volkite weapon is a nasty AT capable weapon and even used to make Warhounds flinch until they got haywire immunity. I think thats more of an outlier though, its certainly significantly more dangerous than any other volkite which do tend towards mediocre.

Yup, this right here. How is it a tank-sized Volkite is punching through titans but a titan-sized Volkite can't do much other than shut down voidshields? It's terribly inconsistent.

 

 

 

It goes the other way though. 40k porphyrions hit like wet fish. AT Porphyrions are murder turtles.

Well, these things aren't quite equivalent are they? The issue is that the glaive's volkite is weirdly more effective against vehicles than other volkite guns, which are generally anti-personnel weapons. Let's not bring Acastus into this, because their rules just make no sense whatsoever.

 

I'm not really clear on what volkite weapons are even supposed to do. They heat things up, though not in the same way as either a flamer or melta, and there's also sometimes some sort of haywire/voidbreaker electromagnetic effect. In 30k (if I remember correctly) they mostly have rubbish AP, except the one on the Glaive which I think is ap2. Weird.

 

I've always felt that the Glaive's rules were the outlier. You have a rifle that's highly effective against infantry. What happens if you scale it up a hundred times and make it the main gun of a superheavy? Who knows! They obviously made a choice to make it an effective anti-tank gun, so that the Glaive wouldn't be useless against enemy armour, but I think that decision was based on gameplay rather than fluff. And I think the same applies to the rules they've given them in AT, which is about having a new type of weapon that is interesting, different to the existing options but still roughly in line with their power.

 

I wouldn't feel at all confident in saying how these things "should" affect titans, or what a really really big one would do. But I don't think they'd be particularly likely to punch through a battle titan. An infantry one won't easily go through power armour, so a titan one shouldn't easily go through titan armour, in my opinion.

[Sherrypie]

I think there would be an interesting slot in design space for esoteric weapons that are harder to set up but deal harsh damage if the stars align. Say, having low Str but doubling existing injury bonuses, having subsequently stacking Armour roll bonuses in Coordinated Attacks and so on.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Volkite are basically laser beams that make victims violently combust. It's that body-shrapnel and energy explosion that creates the deflagrate effect.

 

Them being changed into a weapon that's good against a voidshield is weird, as the point of voids is they transport the attack into the warp. Can't explode a teleport field like a body you know.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I dunno, I think it makes sense. A projectile or a 'regular' laser bolt impacts on the shield once, for a relatively short impact time, the longer that impact continues, the more time it's draining the generator, increasing the likelihood of the shield burning out.

The same is probably true of the other laser weapons, they go to voidbreaker when more power is put into them, meaning the laser beam can be fired for longer.

Really, the balance issue is probably that Vulcans are a little too good at stripping shields, and are arguably too cheap.

[Noserenda]

There was a Tom Scott Video today about High and Low explosives that explained Deflagrate quite nicely oddly enough :D 

I think at least a few of the weapons someone has seen has blast in 7th and assumed it should have blast in AT too, despite even the little AT blast being a honking great pizza plate in the bigger scale. Tbh a pass just taking blast off various weapons would fix a fair bit of minor imbalance in the game and speed it up to boot ;)  (losing nothing in the process)

[Marshal Loss]

Available from Friday.

[schoon]

Love the concept of the Volkite weapons, but the rules... Ughh!