Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Plague marines are overpriced

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1
Plague _Lord

Plague _Lord

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 307 posts
  • Location:Poland
  • Faction: CSM
I allways take at least one squad of plague marines for fluff reasons but's it's sometimes hard to justify pms over terminators.

210pts gets you 5 blightlords with a heavy and a flail.

210 points gets you 9 pms with a flail and a blight launcher.

Pms have 4 more bolter shots and more albeit weaker cc attacks. Pms have obsec but terminators have deep strike. Pms give you 3 more wounds but blightlords are way tougher.

I think it's a nocontest in usefullness - blightlords are straight up better.

Now don't get me wrong, plague marines are all right, they more or less make thier points back in my games and can spam dmg 2 weapons but I think they are overpriced.
What do you think?

Armies:

40k: Deathguard, Steel Legion, Word Bearers, Space wolves, Necrons

WFB: Night goblins, Empire, Dark Elves


#2
McElMcNinja

McElMcNinja

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 626 posts
  • Location:Kansas City, MO
  • Faction: Death Guard
This is a tough one for me, while PMs have 1 less W and no invul save, they both get 3 (6) attacks with a flail. So is the point difference making them over priced? While flails aren’t as good as they were, they are still good.
They are obsec and cheaper to Cloud, you can put them in a Rhino or a Drill with support. More weapon options and can put out more damage, depending on build. It’s close, but I’m not sure they are over priced.
I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve with them.
  • Marshal Loss, Iron Sage and TrawlingCleaner like this

#3
Tokugawa

Tokugawa

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 635 posts
  • Location:Beijing,China
  • Faction: Black Templars
Comparing with 19 or 20pts primaris marine, no one should say "21pts plaguemarine is overpriced".

But IMO the price of their wargear upgrades is uncompetitive. Which may cause their average cost move away from 21pts, and towards ~30pts. 10pts each piece is ridiculous(maybe blight launcher is the exception?).

#4
Xenith

Xenith

    ++ NETATOR FEROCIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 12,417 posts

...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

 

 

They're different tools for different things. You wouldn't say a cod fillet was overpriced compared to a hammer when you need to get some DIY done.

 

9PM's can suffer 10 wounds before they lose an objective to 5 intercessors. 5 BLT's (yum) can lose 3 wounds before they lose control of that same objective. The 9 guys also occupy more tablespace to limit deepstrikers, something SM infiltrators pay ~5ppm for, and greater footprint = greater effect of the contagion. Yes, if you put them in straight up fight, the BLT's will win, but that's because they're elite. Put them in a objective scoring fight, and the PM's come out on top. 


  • Kallas likes this

#5
Plague _Lord

Plague _Lord

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 307 posts
  • Location:Poland
  • Faction: CSM

Comparing with 19 or 20pts primaris marine, no one should say "21pts plaguemarine is overpriced".

But IMO the price of their wargear upgrades is uncompetitive. Which may cause their average cost move away from 21pts, and towards ~30pts. 10pts each piece is ridiculous(maybe blight launcher is the exception?).

 

Well comparing two units from different armies would be wrong. It all depends on how the unit performs in synergy with the rest of the army and that's what I think is the problem here - while most of the codex has good internal balance, I feel that the devs just can't think of how to make plague  marines usefull again. Back in the day all deathguard armies has a solid core of plague marines, that performed really well and 1-2 elite units (terminators, bikers) that were main damage dealers but too expensive to spam. Nowadays terminators do all the same stuff that plague marines do (solid antihorde shooting and good CC vs heavy infantry). There is nothing that makes plague marines unique vs  terminators and terminators do the plague marine's job, that is holding objectives, much better. 

 

Tbh I don't think 18pts plague marines with 5pt specials would be op. Right now I'm paying 280pts for the unit to actually do any damage (3 plasma, 2 BL) at range and if I would want some flails in there it pushes me to 300pts - that's going into elite territory and in contention with terminators. 

 

It's kind of sad that the best loadout of a plaguemarine squad is just 5 barebones guys comming from reserves to do late games actions...


Armies:

40k: Deathguard, Steel Legion, Word Bearers, Space wolves, Necrons

WFB: Night goblins, Empire, Dark Elves


#6
Tokugawa

Tokugawa

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 635 posts
  • Location:Beijing,China
  • Faction: Black Templars
In 9th CP farm detachement is removed, and obsec tricks are just everywhere(e.g. as a marine player, I would never left home without Rites of war in list), being troops is not that valuable as in 8th. And if we felt thin on troops model numbers, we always have poxwalker.

#7
Putrid Choir

Putrid Choir

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 841 posts
As far as the footprint goes, 9 PM need to be in unit cohesion of two other models, 5 BLT just need to be within one, so it's not really that much bigger of a footprint. Also smaller base sizes on the PM.

They each serve their purpose. I feel PM kinda suck when you go against shooting armies, they are too slow to get in there and their shooting kind of sucks. But when you're playing against a melee army that speeds up to you to hit you, that's where PM shine with their punches back I feel. Bolt guns are terrible. Need two blight launchers to reliably shoot, and that requires 10 man squads now. That's the poopiest part of plague marines now, I loved my 5 man squads with two launchers in 8th.
  • Lord Raven 19 likes this

#8
Plague _Lord

Plague _Lord

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 307 posts
  • Location:Poland
  • Faction: CSM

I mean that's the whole point of this post - plague marines are having kind of an identity crises - they have nothing unique about them (in the army) apart from:

- the ability to take 4 flamers - pretty cool in a mortarion's chosen sons army, but then again they really need a rhino and a charachter with arch-contaminator to shine, which of course can't fit in the rhino with a full squad

- meltaguns - blightlords do it better thanks to deepstrike, besides 10pts for a melta gun? No thanks.

- plasma spam - this is allright but then again they need a lord for rerolls otherwise you are risking 30point models to overcharge...

- flails - again I think blightlords do it better. Sure they have the same number of attacks but blightlords can deepstrike in... 10 fully kitted combat PMs with the rhino needed to get to combat costs almost as much as 10 blight lords and both units hit just as hard

 

and that's it... poxwalkers hold objectives better, blightlords fight and tank better, while the poor plague marines are just mediocre. They used have an identity in MSU spamming specials but no more. They either need a point drop, or bolters need to get better so that taking the sigil would have sense.


  • Aarik likes this

Armies:

40k: Deathguard, Steel Legion, Word Bearers, Space wolves, Necrons

WFB: Night goblins, Empire, Dark Elves


#9
Marshal Loss

Marshal Loss

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,294 posts
  • Location:New York
  • Faction: Emperor's Children

I agree with the posters stating that Blightlords aren't simply "better" than Plague Marines. That's an overly simplistic perspective imo.


  • Iron Sage likes this

bRxSYDV.png


#10
MCB82

MCB82

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 30 posts

I think the issue with PM is less their point cost and more the odd limitations GW placed on their wargear options which limit their roll and effectiveness.  5 PM with 2 Blight launchers at 125 would be an acceptable unit with decent fire output.  5 PMs with 2 Flails is a very effective CC unit.  But 5 PM with 1 Flail or 1 BL or 1 of each does not have reliable, competitive output.

 

IMO option 115 points for 5 Pm with 1 single flail is a decent unit for a specific role, performing actions or following behind your advancing units to assist in mop up or add Ob Sec.  With Ferric Blight and Trench Fighters they can put hurt on a unit of 5 marines holding an objective.  But the Blightlords function more efficiently as an alpha unit.

 

Are PM over priced,  I would say No.  But I agree their war gear might be.   Perhaps it is the Blightlords who are under costed for how effective they are?


  • Aarik and Lord Raven 19 like this

#11
trees

trees

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 56 posts

I agree with the posters stating that Blightlords aren't simply "better" than Plague Marines. That's an overly simplistic perspective imo.

True.  Point for point I think it's easier to say blightlords are better, but PMs give you obsec and fill out slots for your detachment, so you really have to compare them to poxwalkers or cultists.



#12
Bulwyf

Bulwyf

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,645 posts
  • Location:Barbarus
  • Faction: Death Guard

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.


  • Plaguecaster, Iron Sage and Putrid Choir like this
40kDGBanner

 


#13
Lagrath

Lagrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,140 posts
  • Location:Lehi, Utah, USA
  • Faction: Hexfleet Virules

I totally agree that GW made a big mistake in overpricing PM wargear, in addition to the frustrating limits on options. 


  • Bulwyf and Putrid Choir like this

#14
Emicus

Emicus

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,713 posts
  • Location:Kristiansand, Norway

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.


You don't need to bring troops at all though.

#15
Bulwyf

Bulwyf

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,645 posts
  • Location:Barbarus
  • Faction: Death Guard

 

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.


You don't need to bring troops at all though.

 

 

I can't disagree with that enough. Any single model from the enemy with objective secured will hold any and all objectives if you have no troops.


  • Plaguecaster likes this
40kDGBanner

 


#16
Azekai

Azekai

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,110 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Faction: Warp Locusts, Traitor Guard

 

 

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.


You don't need to bring troops at all though.

 

 

I can't disagree with that enough. Any single model from the enemy with objective secured will hold any and all objectives if you have no troops.

 

Exactly. Technically you can build an army without troops... but it probably will not actually function on the tabletop. Even if you can eventually kill off the entire enemy army, they will likely have outscored you over the previous turns.


  • Bulwyf likes this

Corruption is our armor. Infection is our weapon. Immortality is our reward.
 

gallery_48988_13169_3872.pngETL_VI_Badge_Forum_Champion_Chaos_LATD.jCall_of_Chaos_11_Banner_01e.jpggallery_30308_9518_1272.jpggallery_30308_9518_1551.pnggallery_63428_7083_8312.png3DrnTQ5.png

#17
Emicus

Emicus

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,713 posts
  • Location:Kristiansand, Norway
Ah, but how often do you steal objectives from obsec, or protect objectives with the same? A fat terminator unit can technically lose an objective to a single guardsman - but they'd also just kill him and keep the objective anyway.
  • Balerion84 likes this

#18
Balerion84

Balerion84

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 74 posts
That's a good point. In theory, yes, one would think you need troops for obsec, otherwise your opponent will just take the objectives from you, but in my experience, obsec from troops was actually quite rarely so important. I play custodes, and there, having obsec on everything, including termiantors is big. But with dg, either my opponent puts enough obsec units to take it from PMs anyway, or he just shoots them off the table and then takes it with literally anything. Plus even if both sides have 10 man troop units, how often are equally big units contesting the same objective? In my experience, never (or almost never, I can't remember a case like that). There are usually some casualties along the way and if one side has more obsec troops than the other, then you might as well just have a non-obsec unit that can kill the obsec one. I tried a fully mechanized list and I didn't lose because I lacked troops. And if I want obsec units in Dg, I'd rather take poxwalkers for the cost of PMs...and that's from someone who doesn't want to play poxwalkers and would rather play PMs... but they cost a LOT of points for what they offer :(

Edited by Balerion84, 06 April 2021 - 03:03 PM.


#19
Tokugawa

Tokugawa

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 635 posts
  • Location:Beijing,China
  • Faction: Black Templars
If really dislike poxwalkers, you still should bring 1 or 2 minimum units for basic utility.

In 9th, bring no poxwalkers is equal to tell opponents: I don't want to win and I don't care about the results of the game at all.
  • Balerion84 likes this

#20
Azekai

Azekai

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,110 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Faction: Warp Locusts, Traitor Guard

If really dislike poxwalkers, you still should bring 1 or 2 minimum units for basic utility.

In 9th, bring no poxwalkers is equal to tell opponents: I don't want to win and I don't care about the results of the game at all.

Can't you use cultists to do the same thing but worse? If you just need a little squad of cheapos to do actions, they can work.


Corruption is our armor. Infection is our weapon. Immortality is our reward.
 

gallery_48988_13169_3872.pngETL_VI_Badge_Forum_Champion_Chaos_LATD.jCall_of_Chaos_11_Banner_01e.jpggallery_30308_9518_1272.jpggallery_30308_9518_1551.pnggallery_63428_7083_8312.png3DrnTQ5.png

#21
Balerion84

Balerion84

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 74 posts
Well, sure, but poxwalkers are actually good unlike cultists, so that'd be one reason :D

#22
Squark

Squark

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,064 posts
  • Faction: Space Wolves

Speaking as a non-DG player... Plague Marines feel like they're in a weird place, price-wise. They're impressively durable, sure, but anyone without a special weapon is just a meatshield. That's a tricky unit to price- My immediate thought, then, is "Don't change the price of Plague Marines, fix boltguns instead."

 

 

So I guess I agree they're overpriced, but I'm not sure cutting their price is what's called for.


  • Lord Raven 19 likes this

ETL_2014_Banner_V2_03A_Custos_Fidei.jpgETL_2013_03_Custos_Fidei_02.jpg


#23
Putrid Choir

Putrid Choir

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 841 posts
The wargear changes for plague marines I definitely consider a nerf. I loved running 5 man squads with two blight launchers. I don't necessarily think plague marines are overpriced, but their wargear definately is.
  • Aarik and Lord Raven 19 like this

#24
Brother Kraskor

Brother Kraskor

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 546 posts
  • Location:Descending via Drop Pod
  • Faction: Black Templars

The wargear changes for plague marines I definitely consider a nerf. I loved running 5 man squads with two blight launchers. I don't necessarily think plague marines are overpriced, but their wargear definately is.

 

As somebody new to DG I find their datasheet confusing to say the least!


  • Putrid Choir likes this

My rebooted BT Crusade: The Gemini Crusade

 

My Death Guard 1st Company: The Blight

 

 


#25
MegaVolt87

MegaVolt87

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,868 posts
  • Faction: Iron Warriors

I mean, it looks like DG are priced the way they are if you can execute a flawless game plan and maximize the synergies, then they are "priced correctly". I don't see points drops until the majority of other codexes are out yet. Also the lack of PF/CF on termi's, no HB + ML option for infantry which DG used back in the day, honestly puts me off the faction a bit. 


  • Lord Raven 19 likes this
gallery_154982_15362_23624.jpg

My Iron Warriors Project   Guns for the guns god!, Bullets for the Brass throne!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users