Plague marines are overpriced

[Plague _Lord]

I allways take at least one squad of plague marines for fluff reasons but's it's sometimes hard to justify pms over terminators.

 

210pts gets you 5 blightlords with a heavy and a flail.

 

210 points gets you 9 pms with a flail and a blight launcher.

 

Pms have 4 more bolter shots and more albeit weaker cc attacks. Pms have obsec but terminators have deep strike. Pms give you 3 more wounds but blightlords are way tougher.

 

I think it's a nocontest in usefullness - blightlords are straight up better.

 

Now don't get me wrong, plague marines are all right, they more or less make thier points back in my games and can spam dmg 2 weapons but I think they are overpriced.

What do you think?

[McElMcNinja]

This is a tough one for me, while PMs have 1 less W and no invul save, they both get 3 (6) attacks with a flail. So is the point difference making them over priced? While flails aren’t as good as they were, they are still good.

They are obsec and cheaper to Cloud, you can put them in a Rhino or a Drill with support. More weapon options and can put out more damage, depending on build. It’s close, but I’m not sure they are over priced.

I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve with them.

[Tokugawa]

Comparing with 19 or 20pts primaris marine, no one should say "21pts plaguemarine is overpriced".

 

But IMO the price of their wargear upgrades is uncompetitive. Which may cause their average cost move away from 21pts, and towards ~30pts. 10pts each piece is ridiculous(maybe blight launcher is the exception?).

[Xenith]

...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

 

 

They're different tools for different things. You wouldn't say a cod fillet was overpriced compared to a hammer when you need to get some DIY done.

 

9PM's can suffer 10 wounds before they lose an objective to 5 intercessors. 5 BLT's (yum) can lose 3 wounds before they lose control of that same objective. The 9 guys also occupy more tablespace to limit deepstrikers, something SM infiltrators pay ~5ppm for, and greater footprint = greater effect of the contagion. Yes, if you put them in straight up fight, the BLT's will win, but that's because they're elite. Put them in a objective scoring fight, and the PM's come out on top. 

[Plague _Lord]

Comparing with 19 or 20pts primaris marine, no one should say "21pts plaguemarine is overpriced".

 

But IMO the price of their wargear upgrades is uncompetitive. Which may cause their average cost move away from 21pts, and towards ~30pts. 10pts each piece is ridiculous(maybe blight launcher is the exception?).

 

Well comparing two units from different armies would be wrong. It all depends on how the unit performs in synergy with the rest of the army and that's what I think is the problem here - while most of the codex has good internal balance, I feel that the devs just can't think of how to make plague  marines usefull again. Back in the day all deathguard armies has a solid core of plague marines, that performed really well and 1-2 elite units (terminators, bikers) that were main damage dealers but too expensive to spam. Nowadays terminators do all the same stuff that plague marines do (solid antihorde shooting and good CC vs heavy infantry). There is nothing that makes plague marines unique vs  terminators and terminators do the plague marine's job, that is holding objectives, much better. 

 

Tbh I don't think 18pts plague marines with 5pt specials would be op. Right now I'm paying 280pts for the unit to actually do any damage (3 plasma, 2 BL) at range and if I would want some flails in there it pushes me to 300pts - that's going into elite territory and in contention with terminators. 

 

It's kind of sad that the best loadout of a plaguemarine squad is just 5 barebones guys comming from reserves to do late games actions...

[Tokugawa]

In 9th CP farm detachement is removed, and obsec tricks are just everywhere(e.g. as a marine player, I would never left home without Rites of war in list), being troops is not that valuable as in 8th. And if we felt thin on troops model numbers, we always have poxwalker.

[Special Officer Doofy]

As far as the footprint goes, 9 PM need to be in unit cohesion of two other models, 5 BLT just need to be within one, so it's not really that much bigger of a footprint. Also smaller base sizes on the PM.

 

They each serve their purpose. I feel PM kinda suck when you go against shooting armies, they are too slow to get in there and their shooting kind of sucks. But when you're playing against a melee army that speeds up to you to hit you, that's where PM shine with their punches back I feel. Bolt guns are terrible. Need two blight launchers to reliably shoot, and that requires 10 man squads now. That's the poopiest part of plague marines now, I loved my 5 man squads with two launchers in 8th.

[Plague _Lord]

I mean that's the whole point of this post - plague marines are having kind of an identity crises - they have nothing unique about them (in the army) apart from:

- the ability to take 4 flamers - pretty cool in a mortarion's chosen sons army, but then again they really need a rhino and a charachter with arch-contaminator to shine, which of course can't fit in the rhino with a full squad

- meltaguns - blightlords do it better thanks to deepstrike, besides 10pts for a melta gun? No thanks.

- plasma spam - this is allright but then again they need a lord for rerolls otherwise you are risking 30point models to overcharge...

- flails - again I think blightlords do it better. Sure they have the same number of attacks but blightlords can deepstrike in... 10 fully kitted combat PMs with the rhino needed to get to combat costs almost as much as 10 blight lords and both units hit just as hard

 

and that's it... poxwalkers hold objectives better, blightlords fight and tank better, while the poor plague marines are just mediocre. They used have an identity in MSU spamming specials but no more. They either need a point drop, or bolters need to get better so that taking the sigil would have sense.

[Marshal Loss]

I agree with the posters stating that Blightlords aren't simply "better" than Plague Marines. That's an overly simplistic perspective imo.

[KingYertle]

I think the issue with PM is less their point cost and more the odd limitations GW placed on their wargear options which limit their roll and effectiveness.  5 PM with 2 Blight launchers at 125 would be an acceptable unit with decent fire output.  5 PMs with 2 Flails is a very effective CC unit.  But 5 PM with 1 Flail or 1 BL or 1 of each does not have reliable, competitive output.

 

IMO option 115 points for 5 Pm with 1 single flail is a decent unit for a specific role, performing actions or following behind your advancing units to assist in mop up or add Ob Sec.  With Ferric Blight and Trench Fighters they can put hurt on a unit of 5 marines holding an objective.  But the Blightlords function more efficiently as an alpha unit.

 

Are PM over priced,  I would say No.  But I agree their war gear might be.   Perhaps it is the Blightlords who are under costed for how effective they are?

[trees]

I agree with the posters stating that Blightlords aren't simply "better" than Plague Marines. That's an overly simplistic perspective imo.

True.  Point for point I think it's easier to say blightlords are better, but PMs give you obsec and fill out slots for your detachment, so you really have to compare them to poxwalkers or cultists.

[Bulwyf]

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.

[Lagrath]

I totally agree that GW made a big mistake in overpricing PM wargear, in addition to the frustrating limits on options. 

[Emicus]

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.

You don't need to bring troops at all though.

[Bulwyf]

 

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.

You don't need to bring troops at all though.

 

 

I can't disagree with that enough. Any single model from the enemy with objective secured will hold any and all objectives if you have no troops.

[Azekai]

 

 

Bl don't give you Obsec. You can't compare Troops to Elite. Ofc the Elites are better. It is in the actual name. The real comparison is which is better or what do you prefer for TROOPS: Pm or Poxies. I don't like Poxies so my Troop choice is going to PM.

You don't need to bring troops at all though.

 

 

I can't disagree with that enough. Any single model from the enemy with objective secured will hold any and all objectives if you have no troops.

 

Exactly. Technically you can build an army without troops... but it probably will not actually function on the tabletop. Even if you can eventually kill off the entire enemy army, they will likely have outscored you over the previous turns.

[Emicus]

Ah, but how often do you steal objectives from obsec, or protect objectives with the same? A fat terminator unit can technically lose an objective to a single guardsman - but they'd also just kill him and keep the objective anyway.

[Balerion84]

That's a good point. In theory, yes, one would think you need troops for obsec, otherwise your opponent will just take the objectives from you, but in my experience, obsec from troops was actually quite rarely so important. I play custodes, and there, having obsec on everything, including termiantors is big. But with dg, either my opponent puts enough obsec units to take it from PMs anyway, or he just shoots them off the table and then takes it with literally anything. Plus even if both sides have 10 man troop units, how often are equally big units contesting the same objective? In my experience, never (or almost never, I can't remember a case like that). There are usually some casualties along the way and if one side has more obsec troops than the other, then you might as well just have a non-obsec unit that can kill the obsec one. I tried a fully mechanized list and I didn't lose because I lacked troops. And if I want obsec units in Dg, I'd rather take poxwalkers for the cost of PMs...and that's from someone who doesn't want to play poxwalkers and would rather play PMs... but they cost a LOT of points for what they offer :( Edited April 6, 2021 by Balerion84

[Tokugawa]

If really dislike poxwalkers, you still should bring 1 or 2 minimum units for basic utility.

 

In 9th, bring no poxwalkers is equal to tell opponents: I don't want to win and I don't care about the results of the game at all.

[Azekai]

If really dislike poxwalkers, you still should bring 1 or 2 minimum units for basic utility.

 

In 9th, bring no poxwalkers is equal to tell opponents: I don't want to win and I don't care about the results of the game at all.

Can't you use cultists to do the same thing but worse? If you just need a little squad of cheapos to do actions, they can work.

[Balerion84]

Well, sure, but poxwalkers are actually good unlike cultists, so that'd be one reason :D

[Squark]

Speaking as a non-DG player... Plague Marines feel like they're in a weird place, price-wise. They're impressively durable, sure, but anyone without a special weapon is just a meatshield. That's a tricky unit to price- My immediate thought, then, is "Don't change the price of Plague Marines, fix boltguns instead."

 

 

So I guess I agree they're overpriced, but I'm not sure cutting their price is what's called for.

[Special Officer Doofy]

The wargear changes for plague marines I definitely consider a nerf. I loved running 5 man squads with two blight launchers. I don't necessarily think plague marines are overpriced, but their wargear definately is.

[Brother Kraskor]

The wargear changes for plague marines I definitely consider a nerf. I loved running 5 man squads with two blight launchers. I don't necessarily think plague marines are overpriced, but their wargear definately is.

 

As somebody new to DG I find their datasheet confusing to say the least!

[MegaVolt87]

I mean, it looks like DG are priced the way they are if you can execute a flawless game plan and maximize the synergies, then they are "priced correctly". I don't see points drops until the majority of other codexes are out yet. Also the lack of PF/CF on termi's, no HB + ML option for infantry which DG used back in the day, honestly puts me off the faction a bit.