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What brought you to Chaos?


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#26
Malios

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I'll admit that my first experiences with Chaos were extremely negative.
 
I got into Warhammer around 2000, and my first army in my young adolescence which I shared with my brother was Black Templars (inspired by the paint scheme of the 3rd edition starter set as well as the 2001 3rd War for Armageddon campaign).
 
Where alot of Chaos players reminisce about the infamous 3.5 codex and how good it was both on the table and the character it had, my experience was the exact opposite: I was on the receiving end of it. Time after time. It was not an enjoyable codex to play against in the slightest. Especially with a 3rd edition space marine codex, even if it was supplemented by the Black Templars rules in Armageddon.
 
This negative attitude was then further amplified with the outcry when the 4th edition Chaos Codex dropped. Granted it was a massive change compared to the 3.5 codex and took away alot so the outcry was justified... but the outcry didn't stop for nearly 10 years and four editions. It was a common, negative attitude on the multiple online forums, including Bolter & Chainsword. And it was really bad locally for me, with some very vocal chaos players sucking the life out of actually wanting to play warhammer.
 
What annoyed me the most about it was the entitlement: it was a general observation that Chaos players when the 4th edition codex dropped (and persisted well towards the end of 7th edition) felt they were owed more then everyone else. It didn't matter that Dark Eldar hadn't received a codex or a new model in 13 years (prior to their revamp), or that Tyranids received an abomination of a codex for 5th edition that almost made them unplayable, or that Necrons were using a 3rd edition codex right until their revamp at the end of 5th edition... it was that Chaos was so hard done by. They wanted to the Matt Ward treatment, because they deserved it. Suffice to say, it annoyed me.
 
However, my attitude changed. I realised my issue wasn't with the faction: it was with the players.
 
What led me to that realisation was a number of factors:
 
- Novels. AD-B's Night Lords trilogy was my first true foray into Chaos in a narrative prose, and suffice to say, it changed my opinion very quickly. This was followed shortly by Storm of Iron by Graham Mcneil, then the Word Bearers Trilogy by Anthony Reynolds, the Ahriman Trilogy by John French and the Black Legion duo by AD-B. I was also concurrently reading the Horus Heresy books and these served to highlight that Chaos weren't just moustache twirling villains who were thwarted by the Imperium every time they set out from the Eye: They were a faction with distinct individualism and character.
 
- Forge World: The Siege of Vraks and the Badab War. The Siege of Vraks extensively detailed how a rebellion escalates into a full Chaos incursion. The Badab War further gave character to Chaos by showing the tragedy of good intentions and just how ruthless the Imperium was in its ignorance.
 
- The Crimson Slaughter. It didn't add much to the game and was heavily criticised that it wasn't a Legion, but I really enjoyed the story of the Crimson Slaughter in their supplement. We got to extensively see, similar to the Badab War, just what leads a chapter to go renegade and the challenges they face when they do.
 
The running theme though for me, was that individualism and character was what defined Chaos in any rendition of Warhammer and AoS. That unlike the Loyalist Chapters who were defined by their Chapter identity, the Veterans of the Long War were defined by their individualism on the path the glory. That their origins played a part of that identity, but their personal goals, vendettas, struggles and regrets defined them. And as a result, I felt there was more of a story to tell in Chaos both in narrative prose and on the tabletop.
 
And I still stand by my opinion that Sevastus Kranon's model is one of the best in the Chaos range... a shame it is no longer available.
 
I don't really play 40k that much anymore, but I'm reconnecting with Chaos in the Necromunda context. The character, theme and narrative of the Corpse Grinder Cults is so dark and twisted that it takes me back to the hopeless, grimdark themes from earlier editions which I feel has been... evolved in newer editions. The release of Slaanesh mortals, the Blades of Khorne and the Warcry warbands in AoS has also opened up alot of modelling opportunities for Chaos Helot cults that weren't possible without alot of work previously.
 
So Chaos is in a great position from a hobby context in this hobbyist's opinion. 40k is still the weakest of Chaos' lineups and despite some needed new sculpts still needs alot of work, but its a great time to be in this faction from a hobby perspective. The options available now are substantially greater then they were 10 years ago, and even moreso then 20 years ago.
 
[Edit] To end with snippet of irony, we've received alot of new toys except for what we actually want: new Khorne Berserkers, new Noise Marines and new Chosen sculpts. The Chaos gods must truly be fickle, or have a nasty sense of humour.

Edited by Malios, 09 April 2021 - 12:03 PM.

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The greatest contradiction of chaos is that it is a realm in constant flux, yet the gods themselves never change.


#27
Sception

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Every once in a while you'd see wacky themed armies in White Dwarf.  In particular I remember an 'Army of Darkness' vampire counts army.  I wanted to do that, and settled on making an army based on the villains from the old Powerpuff Girls cartoon.  This was around the time of 3rd edition 40k, and when I looked around for what army would fit best I ended up settling on chaos marines, during the 3.0 book, with expansion from Chapter Approved.  I could have cultists in prison orange with numbered plackards on their chest, Him as a keeper of Secrets, Mojo as a chaos lord, obliterator amoeba boys, gangreen gang plague marines, etc.

 

The progress was slow, but coming along.  Then the 3.5 book came out, and I suddenly couldn't field all that stuff together in the same army anymore.  Only Alpha Legion got cultists, but they didn't get half the other units I had worked on, it split the stuff I had done to that point clean in half.  It was very disheartening, and I ended up abandoning the project altogether.  But by that point I was a fan of Chaos Marines and the Black Legion in particular, so I started over collecting just a normal Black Legion army.  The only model I kept from the original project was my chaos lord Mojo Jokaero with his sculpted big brain chimp head.  After the addition of warpsmiths, I transplanted the head onto a warpsmiths body and there it remains, the only remaining evidence of the abandoned project that brought me to chaos in the first place.

 

Since then I've worked on that army on and off as my interest in 40k as a game has come and gone.  I'm more a fan of the fantasy side of things, though, so it's been more off than on, especially with long years of not really liking the chaos marine rules (4th, 5th) or the core 40k game rules (7th, 8th).  At this point I'm pretty thoroughly disconnected from 40k as a game (what is even going on in this game?  Is it fun at all to play?  Everything I hear sounds like a giant hassle, and it does not sound like they've been particularly interested in balancing factions or updating them to the new edition), so I don't know when I'll be back to work on the army, but it's nicely packed in storage containers waiting for their day to come.


Edited by Sception, 09 April 2021 - 12:43 PM.

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#28
Putrid Choir

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@Malios: That's weird, it's opposite of what I saw in the hobby during those days (and now). I shared a similar experience with chaos players reminiscing about the great days of 3.5 (and still do, I didn't play them back then), but I saw way more loyalist marines complain about anything and everything, even stupid stuff like their chapter wasn't on the cover of everything Warhammer 40k. Most chaos players I knew or saw online were all about the painting and converting aspect of the hobby back then, making their own custom warbands, the loyalist ones were the ones super concerned their paint schemes were cookie cutter to the chapters, so concerned with correct paintings and markings for captains vs lieutenants vs sergeants, that they could try and fill out a whole company and other over the top stuff. Marine players took the game more serious than anyone and took the fun out for me, it's what pushed me towards chaos even more. Holds true for me to this day.
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#29
Scribe

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.

This negative attitude was then further amplified with the outcry when the 4th edition Chaos Codex dropped. Granted it was a massive change compared to the 3.5 codex and took away alot so the outcry was justified... but the outcry didn't stop for nearly 10 years and four editions. It was a common, negative attitude on the multiple online forums, including Bolter & Chainsword. And it was really bad locally for me, with some very vocal chaos players sucking the life out of actually wanting to play warhammer.


And we were right.

It's not called the long war for nothing. :D
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#30
Marshal Loss

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They wanted to the Matt Ward treatment

We certainly did not


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#31
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They wanted to the Matt Ward treatment

We certainly did not

Very true.

We could catalog all the slights and insults perpetrated against the Chaos players over the decades, but it's not important.

Nobody wanted the Ward treatment.
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#32
Prot

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Some great reads here folks!

 

For myself this is a very, very old tale but I remember it well because of the way it happened because the truths of it are still present in today's game. (Probably worse!)

 

Many years ago I started like most people with Marines. Friends that brought me into the game were a mix of power games, and half were pure background junkies (weird, I know).

 

What I really got tired of was playing against marines. This was so prevalent, but I had my Crimson Fists at the time and won my first 50+ tournament using them. After that I swore them off for a main stream gaming army. 

 

Every time I went to the store, every time there was even a pick up game I got sick and tired of playing against Imperium or (at the time Eldar/Tau.)

 

Eventually a catalyst happened. Some guys who were great organizers of 'fun' tournaments and large games created one of North America's first true organized "Mega Battle" events. It happened here in Canada at a university and the floor was incredibly big.

 

The sides were divided.... and guess who was named the General of the forces of Chaos? Yup... and over the course of a day we had won. My "warsmith" gathered the players we had and we worked together. I made friends from that very battle that I still know to this day! (This is late 90's into early 2000's).

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I eventually became known to some as literally "the Iron Warrior guy", or to some 'Obliterator guy". (This is a true story....)

 

It got to a point where I was being approached by people who heard of me and would come to a local hobby shop and introduce themselves to me just to talk 'chaos' or ask me about hobbying. This happened so many times I regret to admit I started retracting from the scene. 

 

Keep in mind this is a LONG time before youtube, or true social media.

 

Eventually we had another massive battle.. a true event befitting the first one. The Imperium wanted revenge. I was asked to come back as general of the forces of 'disorder'. 

 

The Imperium side as typical, had way too many players. The 'bad guys' struggled to even come close in numbers. I could show you guys pictures you wouldn't believe of some of this old stuff.... The Imperium also had those old massive Titans; I still remember an Imperium player trying to claim a 'bridge' at the Titan's belt buckle height as a 'cover save'. lol Those were the days...

 

I had Abaddon (old metal chunky Abaddon), an army of Black Legion, and Iron Warriors to the tune of approximately 15,000 points (all painted).

 

Anyway I chose to organize my players by army type. A friend of mine had a MASSIVE Alpha Legion and Word bearers force, so I gave him the duty of following my Alpha strikes up with strong counter deployments (infiltration/daemon bombing) to take out the 10's of thousands of points of Imperial Guard tanks we were facing.

 

We also had some great hobbiests with large forces of Night Lords, Death Guard, Daemons, 'corrupt' Guard, tons of World Eaters... this all fit together nicely and we even had some Necron players because the sides were so lopsided.

 

As that long day drew on I noticed something.... where we (Chaos) acted as a truly united force; debating tactics, considering redeployments, best course of reinforcements, cutting losses, and all army 'generals' gave me regular updates... I could barely play my own army! Conversely the Imperium side I noticed argued... a lot. They fought over roles, deployment got hotly debated. I still remember one of a few Blood Angel players reporting to their 'warlord' that his Terminators were wiped out by Death Guard. The imperium leader simply said, "Good, I told you not to put them there anyway!" 

 

Funny how that stuck with me so many years. 

 

The day continued that way... we communicated, all got along great. I always gave my players their first choice, and would 'gently' suggest an alternative if I knew there was a bigger moment developing... they (Imperium) continued to bicker. It really gave me pause for thought (obviously since I can recall it all these years later).

 

Chaos ended up winning again. Pictures from these events were posted at GW's North American website. 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++

 

The funny thing is I have won tournaments, I have won all the awards you can; best general, best painted, best mini.... but I have never come first overall in any tournament with my Chaos! Very close, but never a first overall.

 

So fast forward to today.... believe it or not I still know many of the 'old guard'. They are still some of the finest hobbiests I know. They are some of the better tactical players I know, and all around good people.

 

From that perspective it's been easy to be 'that chaos guy'. But I often sabotage myself with my insistence of unique builds at tournaments...or sometimes just not caring enough to place.

 

My last Black Legion tournament (pre covid) got me best painted army and honestly, that's my top priority now; to present a nice looking, representative Chaos force at these events. I don't know why but my desire to just 'win' left me a long time ago. I certainly still do well as my blog can show people, but I never make a list entirely created to beat people over the head. I MUST always have a rule of cool in the list.

 

++++++++++++++++++++

 

Sorry that's so long winded. I do have so many highlights I'd love to share but it would take a long time. I think getting to know Pete Haines was a highlight. Realizing that even back then they realized who I was became such a cool and fun thing to me. Graham Mcneil was apparently very aware too. It shows you "we" (the player base) can have an effect on creators of the fiction and game!

 

So to this day when I walk in the store, and there's a big event going on... let's say the last one I think of... at the store was a Vigilus mutli-weekend event. As much as I might want to play my newly painted (number 3 and counting....) Guilliman, I just can't.

 

I'm still that guy. The one who can bring the Chaos in to the event, level the field, get new players to help out, bring a legion of Thousand Sons, or Black Legion, or Death Guard, or whatever they need!

 

I can't say I picked that role, but that's what it has become, and I don't regret it one bit!

 

(if you got this far, thanks for reading!)


Edited by Prot, 09 April 2021 - 07:19 PM.

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#33
WarriorFish

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I think the 3.5 Chaos codex has entered myth and legend somewhat. I think it's best to look at it from two points of view - the lore and choices, and the rules crunch. When someone (and it is by no means all of course) laments about the "good old days" it doesn't mean they were sporting flowing Gandalf beards and eating five course cheese meals. The same goes the other way - a loyalist player moaning is not all loyalist players. Those who shout loudest are usually heard and remembered most, but seldom worth listening to msn-wink.gif

 

Some of these make my tale seem quite mundane by comparison, so to make it up I'll put some money where my mouth is with pictures:

 

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A bit over five years ago, my first CSM. As for the most recent I thought it was the Keeper of Secrets but it's some Terminators:

 

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For a bonus I'm currently working on a Defiler (and some Daemonettes need a bath after priming went wrong). In for a penny in for a pound - it's the Slaanesh way?


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Defiler | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Genestealers


#34
Goreshed

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I think it could be broken down as such.

For the older players who came in at 3.5 and before it was a time of popularity and of a sense of 'newness' if such were a thing. We were getting new models (defiler and obliz) and we had the Eye of Terror campaign. What was more, we had a basic codex that supported all the Legions where the basic SM dex did not. The only true way to get a difference between SM dex at the time was to take either SW/DA/BT and the likes that had their own supplement. When 4th rolled around it was a complete reshuffle and the Chaos community was told that this was the new way of things. That the rules wouldn't matter as to how you painted/assembled your army because why should you be limited by that!? And then the very next codex was SM which completely ignored that philosophy and went with what we had seen for the next 5 generations of codexs. Which, of course, caused a lot of salt to be built up.

 

Then you have the more modern day chaos player who has come into it with a Thousand Son and Death Guard codex as well as Daemons and the basic CSM Codex itself. Which I think we can all agree here is far better than what we have all had since 3.5. I never once thought it was a matter of 'well SM have X so we must have Y' or vice versa but a matter of equality across the board. If you don't want it to matter what you paint your guys then roll out every codex as such. If you wish it to, then do so. Which we have seen so far in 8th and 9th editions. What really hurt Chaos (and lets face it, the majority of the armies in 40k) was when you had the very imbalance of how the codex was going to work.

It truly is great to not only see what brought the older crowd into this but also the 'younger' crowd as well (and I don't mean just age wise but actual time spent within the hobby itself). Many of the same themes are still prevalent and very much the same as to why others have joined up many years previously. It gives me a lot of hope that while SM may always be the 'top dog' there will always be others who are drawn to the dark gods and wishing to see the Corpse God dead.


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#35
Iron Father Ferrum

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When I first got into 40K in 2001, every army was represented in my LGS except Chaos. There were Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, IG, Eldar, Dark Eldar, people even picked up Necrons and Tau when they dropped. Chaos was the odd man out...and I didn't have a lot of money, so an army I can build almost entirely out of plastic on the cheap was the deciding factor.

I have never played a bad guy in any game ever in my life up to that point, but as I read more I bought into my inner villain. Now I'm all about that spikey life.
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#36
WarriorFish

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It is interesting how much army diversity comes up, it's not something I've thought about that much. Mostly because I like what I like and that is my main decider, but also in that I have been pretty lucky with my games and groups. A healthy selection of armies goes a long way to making things more interesting and ameliorating the dread whims of GW. Picking an army to help flesh a group out is a noble choice!

 

Still hoping for some pictures from others; no excuses about how bad you think they look I put my models up so the bar isn't very high laugh.png


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Painting Oaths Completed:
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In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

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#37
Prot

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Still hoping for some pictures from others; no excuses about how bad you think they look I put my models up so the bar isn't very high laugh.png

 

Okay... well I don't have those super old mega battle pics handy that I mention in my post, but here is an oldy: My Iron Warriors vs a friend's UM:

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It was an era of rubber mats! And make your own terrain out of foam and soldering irons! lol

 

 

One of my earlier Black Legion models from my first Black Legion army:

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And now World Eater's and my 'new' legion; Crimson Slaughter vs. Wolves!

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My "Lost and the Damned" tournament army: Blood Pact.

 

 

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My First tournament Death Guard army:

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My First Huron: I actually moved from Black Legion to Red Corsairs for a good year or two. I have always really liked Huron as a character and find Abaddon is now very much portrayed in a similar light with current fiction. This (along with Crimson Slaughter) are two chapters that really deserve fleshing out in the rules.

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Moving forward: Now my first Thousand Sons army during the Fall of Cadia Campaign at the store. (See, I told you I was always the store 'bad guy'!)

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My First Magnus, and First Morty:

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Part of my Second Death Guard army:(sold)

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My Chaos Knights Project continued:

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The bid daddy:

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New Thousand Sons army:

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Then the new Black Legion tournament army:

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The Black Legion did win me best painted in a tournament as well (So this is about the time I put an army up for sale!)

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Okay, I better stop posting images, but that is more or less, in chronological order, the base Chaos armies of my 40k career.... What is not shown is the armies that I probably didn't play for a year or more. This includes: Emperor's Children (sold to a friend), Night Lords (stopped them when metal chaos was being phased out), my first Black Legion army (too many old grainy, pictures!) and I have lots of my Daemonkin army pics too, but I don't want to put up too many images.


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