I'm beginning to feel like we got a little screwed ....

[Helias_Tancred]

As 9th edition is settling in and we're seeing more codices released, info and rumors being teased from upcoming ones, I'm starting to feel two things:

 

1. We got a little screwed on ours. After seeing the Death Guard, Dark Angels, and now Drukhari, we didn't need the stratagem nerfs that we got in 9th. Looking at the other stuff out there ours were not OP. They were strong, they were very fitting with our chapter, and they should have remained.

 

2. One a larger scale 9th is starting to get a codex gap feel. Some codices are average, and lately some have been ridiculously strong (in comparison). I know they probably have multiple teams working different codices but the parity between them is off.

 

I'm not 100% there yet. I'm really looking forward to the next couple releases to see what direction this goes. But I'm beginning to get some not so warm and fuzzy feelings in regards to codex parity in this new edition.

 

 

[Rhavien]

I agree to this. In hindsight we didn't need the nerfs we got if DG, DA and Drukhari are the threshold. Feels more like they needed to change things up, because they wanted to sell us a new book.

[Xenith]

Yes, they went too far with a lot of the nerfs, and we're seeing pretty much every army now get some kind of 'always fight last' rule, BA are suffering. Combined with everyone getting BA buffs for free now (everyones power swords lets them wound marines on a 3+; DG make everyone -1T in melee which is better than +1 to wound; etc etc), the BA rules just aren't up to scratch. We have some good units in the Furioso libby, SanGuard and Priest, but 3 datasheets do not a good codex make. 

[Jolemai]

Gentle reminder that the second this thread stops being constructive, it will be gone. The B&C doesn't do whinge threads after all.

[The Unseen]

Fought the Drukhari yesterday, it's going to be very hard for a "traditional" aka melee heavy BA to deal with them.

Fight last abilities everywhere, are incredibly fast, and hit like a truck.

You can't even use counter-attack to fight out of their fight last abilities.

 

But they are very squishy, shooting them is going to be critical

[L30n1d4s]

I think the key is going to be, specifically with a lot of Marine melee armies like WS, SW, BT (i.e. not just BA), how well can you build a balanced lists that shoots well, then uses your unique melee capabilities at the critical moment(s) to take back an Objective, kill his death star unit, etc.

 

Put another way, melee Marines are going to have to find a way to shoot efficiently and also use their melee skills to maximum advantage, which actually may not be a bad thing.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Fought the Drukhari yesterday, it's going to be very hard for a "traditional" aka melee heavy BA to deal with them.

Fight last abilities everywhere, are incredibly fast, and hit like a truck.

You can't even use counter-attack to fight out of their fight last abilities.

 

But they are very squishy, shooting them is going to be critical

glad I've been planning on investing in some heavy Intercessors then.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think the key is going to be, specifically with a lot of Marine melee armies like WS, SW, BT (i.e. not just BA), how well can you build a balanced lists that shoots well, then uses your unique melee capabilities at the critical moment(s) to take back an Objective, kill his death star unit, etc.

 

Put another way, melee Marines are going to have to find a way to shoot efficiently and also use their melee skills to maximum advantage, which actually may not be a bad thing.

since coming back to the hobby and my angels I've been advocating a balance.

As such I think aggressors will play a pretty big role in BA armies going forward. Pretty shooty and pretty punchy all in one.

 

Also thinking about doing my SG with inferno pistols and making them my army's anti-big stuff unit.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Helias_Tancred]

Fought the Drukhari yesterday, it's going to be very hard for a "traditional" aka melee heavy BA to deal with them.

Fight last abilities everywhere, are incredibly fast, and hit like a truck.

You can't even use counter-attack to fight out of their fight last abilities.

 

But they are very squishy, shooting them is going to be critical

 

My friend plays them. We can't plan around our chapter strengths with them, but we're still space marines and we can shoot well and we get some nice shooty things. Build a more shooty BA list to fight Dark Eldar.

 

I think the key is going to be, specifically with a lot of Marine melee armies like WS, SW, BT (i.e. not just BA), how well can you build a balanced lists that shoots well, then uses your unique melee capabilities at the critical moment(s) to take back an Objective, kill his death star unit, etc.

 

Put another way, melee Marines are going to have to find a way to shoot efficiently and also use their melee skills to maximum advantage, which actually may not be a bad thing.

since coming back to the hobby and my angels I've been advocating a balance.

As such I think aggressors will play a pretty big role in BA armies going forward. Pretty shooty and pretty punchy all in one.

 

Also thinking about doing my SG with inferno pistols and making them my army's anti-big stuff unit.

 

 

I usually always get good performance from my flamer aggressors!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Fought the Drukhari yesterday, it's going to be very hard for a "traditional" aka melee heavy BA to deal with them.

Fight last abilities everywhere, are incredibly fast, and hit like a truck.

You can't even use counter-attack to fight out of their fight last abilities.

 

But they are very squishy, shooting them is going to be critical

My friend plays them. We can't plan around our chapter strengths with them, but we're still space marines and we can shoot well and we get some nice shooty things. Build a more shooty BA list to fight Dark Eldar.

 

I think the key is going to be, specifically with a lot of Marine melee armies like WS, SW, BT (i.e. not just BA), how well can you build a balanced lists that shoots well, then uses your unique melee capabilities at the critical moment(s) to take back an Objective, kill his death star unit, etc.

 

Put another way, melee Marines are going to have to find a way to shoot efficiently and also use their melee skills to maximum advantage, which actually may not be a bad thing.

since coming back to the hobby and my angels I've been advocating a balance.

As such I think aggressors will play a pretty big role in BA armies going forward. Pretty shooty and pretty punchy all in one.

 

Also thinking about doing my SG with inferno pistols and making them my army's anti-big stuff unit.

I usually always get good performance from my flamer aggressors!

my bolter bois wiped a whole unit of necron warriors in 1 turn shooting, and killed the same three legged choppy guy...twice...in back to back turns in melee -_- Edited April 12, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

How would the sons of the angel feel if an errata came out making assault squads troop choices for us?

Just curious.

[Helias_Tancred]

How would the sons of the angel feel if an errata came out making assault squads troop choices for us?

Just curious.

 

It would be fluffy and a thumbs up from me ... but honestly just un-nerf a couple of our key strats and I think we're good to go.

And if the rules gods are listening, can we go back to a 5+ FNP for DC? ;)

[Adorondak]

I used to love having assault squads as troops, but at this point, I don't know if that would actually improve anything. My incursors have often times out preformed just about every first born unit I've fielded next to them, except of course the big three (vanvets, dc, and sang guard).

[Xenith]

Fought the Drukhari yesterday, it's going to be very hard for a "traditional" aka melee heavy BA to deal with them.

Fight last abilities everywhere, are incredibly fast, and hit like a truck.

You can't even use counter-attack to fight out of their fight last abilities.

 

That's the same for a lot of the new wording, as with the Judiciar, 'the unit may not be selected until all other elegible units have been selected', or words to that effect. 

[Gloomfoe]

I think the blood angels chapter tactic is very good, especially for 9th, and so the rest of it seems a bit tepid in comparison, probably for balance reasons. Yes Dark Angels get all sorts of goodies, but they can't do all of their tricks all of the time, or everywhere at once. Every blood angel, by default, is a beast that performs in close combat and gets use of their super doctrine for 3/5 game rounds. And there's something to be said about not having to remember that special rule from that relic you can only get if you take a detachment of yadda yadda...

 

We're a simpler, purer form of combatant. That being said, don't forget to take shooty stuff.

 

And we still have some unique things, like meltas in assault squads.

[CommDante]

So painting up my Gladiator is more useful now?  I've been itching for a reason to move it up my painting que. 

 

If I'm reading all of this correctly, I can probably try and run a handful of dedicated melee units like SG, and BGV and then try and keep the rest of my army a good mix of both shooty and punchy?  Then it's just a matter of being selective of my melee engagements.  I know eradicators are top notch, but does this make hell blasters a bit more useful as well or does the lack of gravis keep them on the shelf?

 

Sorry for the flurry of questions, just want to have something semi competitive ready once games stores start hosting games again.

 

Cheers.

[Xenith]

Yes, for a while I think we could go full-melee, however it seems that we're reverting back to what BA have generally been for ages, space marines with some advantages in melee. Close-range firepower on compotent melee units might again be the order of the day. I'm looking at MM Venerables, hurricane bolter Ironclads, once again, attack bikes. Outriders can do some work with a lot of shots. 

[Mordas]

So I have had a few games against the Drukhari on TTS recently, although I was fielding my Necrons in these games and lost both I have learnt an awful lot about what they are capable of.

 

Their Melee hits hard with bucket loads of attacks, but they are still a glass cannon army. If you shoot them or manage to fight first they fall over like paper in a breeze. We will want to balance our lists and shoot their transports and then assault their contents.

 

But a few things to watch out for:

• They are fast, if you face a good Drukhari player you will be hard-pressed to catch them.
• Raiders with 5++ and T6 are surprisingly resilient now.
• They have lots of tricks and speed to stop actions and deny objectives.
• Succubus' hit very hard.
• Their poison weapon shooting is still bad at hurting us.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So painting up my Gladiator is more useful now? I've been itching for a reason to move it up my painting que.

 

If I'm reading all of this correctly, I can probably try and run a handful of dedicated melee units like SG, and BGV and then try and keep the rest of my army a good mix of both shooty and punchy? Then it's just a matter of being selective of my melee engagements. I know eradicators are top notch, but does this make hell blasters a bit more useful as well or does the lack of gravis keep them on the shelf?

 

Sorry for the flurry of questions, just want to have something semi competitive ready once games stores start hosting games again.

 

Cheers.

well you get more wounds with a minimum sized squad of hellblasters vs a minimum sized squad of eradicators, and you get more shots with more range, that are respectable against armor. I think hellblasters get slept on.

I don't have any yet but I do plan on getting a box soonish.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

So painting up my Gladiator is more useful now? I've been itching for a reason to move it up my painting que.

 

If I'm reading all of this correctly, I can probably try and run a handful of dedicated melee units like SG, and BGV and then try and keep the rest of my army a good mix of both shooty and punchy? Then it's just a matter of being selective of my melee engagements. I know eradicators are top notch, but does this make hell blasters a bit more useful as well or does the lack of gravis keep them on the shelf?

 

Sorry for the flurry of questions, just want to have something semi competitive ready once games stores start hosting games again.

 

Cheers.

well you get more wounds with a minimum sized squad of hellblasters vs a minimum sized squad of eradicators, and you get more shots with more range, that are respectable against armor. I think hellblasters get slept on.

I don't have any yet but I do plan on getting a box soonish.

 

 

I have two combat squads of assault plasma incinerator hellblasters. They always do well... I'm considering picking up another box and making another two combat squads of heavy plasma incinerator hellblasters. They're nasty and once placed really don't need to move like the assault plasma hellblasters do.

Sometimes I think the design staff that did our codex focused more of their energy on making the best chapter crusade rules so far.

[Rhavien]

Maybe we should gather all the new mean tricks from other codizies here, so we are all aware of the shenanigans our enemies can pull of. Which units give critical debuffs (fight last, doesn't count as having charged) and which strats to be aware of.

Feels like Dark Angels terminators with their always on transhuman is more on the direct side of things. When your enemie sets up a unit of deathwing knights with an apothecary around you know that you will have a hard time to shift them.

[Blindhamster]

the general vibe of the thread is pretty much a given. Blood Angels have been this way in every edition except 3rd and 5th. Otherwise we almost always come out early in the order and have a month or two where we seem pretty great, then we become average or lower tier as everyone else comes out and it's clear we got hit with the cautious rules writers (or more likely, the rules writers generally aren't big BA fans - I've said this for years, I'm pretty sure Blood Angel's issue is they lack a champion with a creative vision and desire to ensure they're both interesting AND good in the rules department).

 

In 9th we were particularly bad for having a couple of dumb combos that were indeed too good, the result was EVERYONE used them, they appeared in so many books that BA got a rep as being OP, when actually it was the smash captain that was OP, everything else was just good. Even after other marines got smash captains of their own, BA retained the rep because it started with them. As a result we got hit harder with a nerf bat than was needed, where almost all other books have had general increases in power, sometimes substantial ones.

[Xenith]

 

In 9th we were particularly bad for having a couple of dumb combos that were indeed too good, the result was EVERYONE used them, they appeared in so many books that BA got a rep as being OP, when actually it was the smash captain that was OP, everything else was just good. 

 

Agree on that one. The worst part was that it was 8th ed soup poeple allying in BA smash captains, they were everywhere. The writers somehow concluded from this that the problem was the smash captain, and not the ally rules. The result was that the captain got nerfed in 8th, then the ally rules changed in 9th, but the smash captain was still nerfed. 

[smileyjim]

Guys BA is one of the best chapters of marines and marines are brutal. The other armies need to be pulled up to scratch, I'm sick of toning down lists to not utterly stomp other armies.

I'd be happy if marines where great but not over the top. So far every new codex is being leveled up and interacting well. All the new codex that have been released completely crush 8th Ed other than sisters, BA is amongst the top of the list

[smileyjim]

I mean put a couple of squads of eradicators, a whirlwind and 30 sang guard most armies are having a bad day