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An Even Newer Celestian


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#51
jakerichmond

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I think the obvious answer always has been to make Celestians and/or Repentia Troops.

Repentia are useful, but too expensive and niche to just replace Battle Sisters. Celestians are a clear upgrade, but at a higher cost. 



#52
Banjulhu

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Celestians are so similar to normal battle sisters in unit size, weaponry and role that if they were both in the Troop slot that it would not take very long for one to become an obviously superior choice and the other relegated to being a shelf warmer.

My guess would be Bloody Rose would take celestians because of their melee focus everyone else would just stick with normal sisters.



#53
ThePenitentOne

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RE: A second troops choice:

 

I want one for the sake of expanding the range. I don't care if they're competitive. I don't care if they warp the meta.

 

Both Frateris Militia and Novitiates exist in the fluff. Both could, and IMHO should be on the table. Absolutely don't care if either ever sees tournament play, because I don't play in tournaments. Don't care if a meta-chaser is only going to use one option, because I am not a meta-chaser.

 

I will field models that are a part of the story I'm trying to tell. Novitiates tell a story; I'm building patrols for all six Orders, and I've already decided that the Sacred Rose will be the Order responsible for supervising and protecting the Schola Progenum facility at Orisons Wake; having novitiates to represent a senior/ graduating class fits my story. Doesn't matter if they aren't points efficient; doesn't matter how they rank up against BSS; they tell the story I want told.

 

Don't get me wrong; I enjoy winning when I feel like it's an honest victory. Given a choice between winning or losing, I'd rather win. But never at the expense of my story or the way my army looks on the table. Additional troops choices allow me to tell better and more complex stories; they allow me to field a more diverse collection of models.

 

Bring it on.


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#54
dracpanzer

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Im all for Initiates being those Sisters in a BSS squad that just carry boltguns and refine their skills following the example of the more experienced Sisters and their Superior.

A unit of SM newby scouts used to make sense as they could not be fielded in power armor and were used in a different tactical role than a fully developed Astartes.

A squad of young initiates in flak armor running up the field with a bolt pistol and combat knife is just asking to get them murdered. Why throw away the bodies?

Not a fan.

Sisters dont need a second troop choice in my opinion. Though Frateris Militia is still out there waiting in the wings and though I likely wouldnt field them they have at least got a reason to be in a Sisters army.

Our Elite slot is way too full. Pulling Repentia out to troops helps clear up that mess. Not entirely.

I would just do away with the basic Celestian squad that has been terrible since forever until the last Dex and the OoBR conviction. The new version fits the elite bodyguard far better and doing so we would have nothing competing for the base BSS type unit.

We'd have two very different Troop choices (BSS and Repentia) and the only thing left to sort out is our pathetic FA choices.
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#55
War Angel

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What’s pathetic about sisters FA options? Sure there’s only two options, but they have distinct and unique roles.

#56
ThePenitentOne

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Im all for Initiates being those Sisters in a BSS squad that just carry boltguns and refine their skills following the example of the more experienced Sisters and their Superior.

A unit of SM newby scouts used to make sense as they could not be fielded in power armor and were used in a different tactical role than a fully developed Astartes.

A squad of young initiates in flak armor running up the field with a bolt pistol and combat knife is just asking to get them murdered. Why throw away the bodies?

Not a fan.

Sisters dont need a second troop choice in my opinion. Though Frateris Militia is still out there waiting in the wings and though I likely wouldnt field them they have at least got a reason to be in a Sisters army.

Our Elite slot is way too full. Pulling Repentia out to troops helps clear up that mess. Not entirely.

I would just do away with the basic Celestian squad that has been terrible since forever until the last Dex and the OoBR conviction. The new version fits the elite bodyguard far better and doing so we would have nothing competing for the base BSS type unit.

We'd have two very different Troop choices (BSS and Repentia) and the only thing left to sort out is our pathetic FA choices.

 

 

In the end, GW will give us whatever they're going to give us whatever they're going to give us, and what either of us want won't influence them one bit. And if you're content to call bolter BSS novitiates, and not get a new unit and a new kit, or if we did get a new kit and you didn't like it and chose not to play with it, that would be fine. But I'd be over the moon with that kit, and a lot of other people would too. I think they should make it and those who don't like it don't have to play it.

 

Because again, I'm done with with being the faction that has 34 options while another faction gets to have 100+. Said faction, of course can't field all the options they have access to in every army list, and people who play that faction seem to be okay with that. You should be too IMHO. Let people have their toys. Don't like'em? Don't play'em. 

 

Sisters don't  need another troops choice? Well marines don't need six, but they've got them. You might even agree and propose taking some of those troops away, but first, that isn't happening, and second, every single one of those choices is probably somebody's favourite, and I would rather find solutions that don't rain on anyone's parade. Like  giving everyone else an extra troops choice. Don't like'em, don't play'em.

 

You sound like you're okay doing that for Frateris Militia, which is cool. Here, we're seeing eye to eye, although the statement about Novitiates not having a purpose were Fraters do would depend on the rules they got.

 

As for Celestians, it's Sniper Protection that makes them Body Guards. We do not know whether the Sacristans have that rule- as I've previously pointed out, it's silly to carry a shield if your special rule is that you can take a mortal wound to protect your leader. The leader who travels with BOTH protectors, you're bullet proof; Look Out Sir + Shields for normal fire and sacrificial Celestians for the Snipers who just ignore the Shields.


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#57
jakerichmond

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Celestians are so similar to normal battle sisters in unit size, weaponry and role that if they were both in the Troop slot that it would not take very long for one to become an obviously superior choice and the other relegated to being a shelf warmer.

My guess would be Bloody Rose would take celestians because of their melee focus everyone else would just stick with normal sisters.

But thats the point of having two troop types, isn't it? The option for different viable army builds? Armies that want a more melee focused army could take one, and everyone else could take the other. Isn't that ideal? Isn't that exactly why people want multiple troop types?



#58
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I think people tend to over rate troops when it comes to viable army builds. For example not having a melee troop isn't hurting Bloody Rose at all. I think the range expanding is great and hope for couple more surprises, I mean the new Celestian squad will be the reason I start sisters. I just think army builds are more effected by the other slots.

#59
dracpanzer

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<<<BIG SNIP>>>Like giving everyone else an extra troops choice. Don't like'em, don't play'em.


Im not against adding troop choices. Sisters dont need another one because the BSS is just that good. That being said, if the army is to get new units/kits then I would hope that they were not just rehashed space marine units with bob cuts and boob plate.

The idea of Initiate units that run about in light armor with whatever weaponry you give them is just a lazy copy of SM Scouts.

Leaving your more inexperienced troops less protected than your main battle force while thrusting them in to a specialised battle role just seems stupid and breaks whatever sort of narrative you might have going.

SM scouts feel the same for me, they should have been more like the space wolf scout squads from long ago. Im just looking for something a little different, otherwise you could just play your Sisters as counts as SM. No thanks.

Just spit balling here but if you wanted Initiates to wear 4+ armor (maybe young women cant use SoB power armor, for, reasons) maybe give them a beefed up tower style combat shield that boosts them with a decent invuln.

Since they have a big board on their arm they cant hold a bolter OR any kind of decent CCW. Give them hand flamers. If the GSC has shown us anything they're cheap to make and the Sisters have so much more money than the Rusted Claw.

They are really only here becsuse the Indomitus Crusade has forced the Imperium to flush every body they can out of assembly line and on to the battlefield. They dont have the capability to vanguard like Dominion squads or Deep Strike like Seraphim.

The only thing they can do is provide a road block for the baddies that are trying to kill your BSS, Doms, Seraphim and Celestians. So they train to be the best road blocks they can be.

Give them the ability to Overwatch when charged or when a friendly unit within 3" is charged. Make a Strat to allow them to Heroicly Intervene in a turn that they fired Overwatch for 1CP. Might even give them something akin to the grot rule that lets them shield the units behind them. Desperate times, right?

Just give us something different. The Sisters are a militant death cult obsessed with fire and faith in the Big E that can manifest actual miracles. Novice Scouts are beneath them.
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#60
Banjulhu

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Celestians are so similar to normal battle sisters in unit size, weaponry and role that if they were both in the Troop slot that it would not take very long for one to become an obviously superior choice and the other relegated to being a shelf warmer.

My guess would be Bloody Rose would take celestians because of their melee focus everyone else would just stick with normal sisters.

But thats the point of having two troop types, isn't it? The option for different viable army builds? Armies that want a more melee focused army could take one, and everyone else could take the other. Isn't that ideal? Isn't that exactly why people want multiple troop types?

 

No. The point of having multiple troops is that they would be viable in multiple army choices. If there is a generic troops that only makes sense in a single sub-faction then a mistake has been made.


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#61
War Angel

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<<<BIG SNIP>>>Like giving everyone else an extra troops choice. Don't like'em, don't play'em.

Im not against adding troop choices. Sisters dont need another one because the BSS is just that good. That being said, if the army is to get new units/kits then I would hope that they were not just rehashed space marine units with bob cuts and boob plate.

The idea of Initiate units that run about in light armor with whatever weaponry you give them is just a lazy copy of SM Scouts.

Leaving your more inexperienced troops less protected than your main battle force while thrusting them in to a specialised battle role just seems stupid and breaks whatever sort of narrative you might have going.

SM scouts feel the same for me, they should have been more like the space wolf scout squads from long ago. Im just looking for something a little different, otherwise you could just play your Sisters as counts as SM. No thanks.

Just spit balling here but if you wanted Initiates to wear 4+ armor (maybe young women cant use SoB power armor, for, reasons) maybe give them a beefed up tower style combat shield that boosts them with a decent invuln.

Since they have a big board on their arm they cant hold a bolter OR any kind of decent CCW. Give them hand flamers. If the GSC has shown us anything they're cheap to make and the Sisters have so much more money than the Rusted Claw.

They are really only here becsuse the Indomitus Crusade has forced the Imperium to flush every body they can out of assembly line and on to the battlefield. They dont have the capability to vanguard like Dominion squads or Deep Strike like Seraphim.

The only thing they can do is provide a road block for the baddies that are trying to kill your BSS, Doms, Seraphim and Celestians. So they train to be the best road blocks they can be.

Give them the ability to Overwatch when charged or when a friendly unit within 3" is charged. Make a Strat to allow them to Heroicly Intervene in a turn that they fired Overwatch for 1CP. Might even give them something akin to the grot rule that lets them shield the units behind them. Desperate times, right?

Just give us something different. The Sisters are a militant death cult obsessed with fire and faith in the Big E that can manifest actual miracles. Novice Scouts are beneath them.

No shield, just leave them in power armor, make them BS4 to represent less experience, 1 flamer per 5 models, and can only take one unit per BSS

#62
jakerichmond

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Celestians are so similar to normal battle sisters in unit size, weaponry and role that if they were both in the Troop slot that it would not take very long for one to become an obviously superior choice and the other relegated to being a shelf warmer.

My guess would be Bloody Rose would take celestians because of their melee focus everyone else would just stick with normal sisters.

But thats the point of having two troop types, isn't it? The option for different viable army builds? Armies that want a more melee focused army could take one, and everyone else could take the other. Isn't that ideal? Isn't that exactly why people want multiple troop types?

 

No. The point of having multiple troops is that they would be viable in multiple army choices. If there is a generic troops that only makes sense in a single sub-faction then a mistake has been made.

 

 

Thats really a problem of the subfactions being skewed toward very specific builds than a problem with multiple troop choices (whether they have very similar or very different roles)


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#63
Brother Tyler

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This is an interesting discussion, but it's off topic. This discussion is about the Celestian Sacresants. If you want to discuss ways that the Adepta Sororitas range might be expanded/adjusted (or even turned into an Eclessiarchy faction instead), please take it up in a new discussion in this forum. If you want to discuss the areas where you perceive GW to be failing in general, please take it up in the Amicus Aedes forum.

Getting back to the topic at hand...

On the one hand, it's nice to see the Adepta Sororitas getting some melee capability beyond the current choices. Aside from the Repentia, the other melee choices available to the Adepta Sororitas aren't truly Adepta Sororitas. Some level of organic melee capability seems appropriate. Hopefully this unit remains recognizable as Adepta Sororitas Celestians and don't become some pseudo Aspect Warrior.

The embellishments on the model are a nice expansion to the Adepta Sororitas aesthetic, generally fitting in with the established aesthetic. I'm not a big fan of the fleur de lis on the raised portion of the helmet, so hopefully the kit has some other choices (otherwise I'll be using helmets from other kits).

On the other hand, I really question the shield - not just the shape, but whether or a not a combatant wielding a two-handed weapon would use such a shield. I could see something the size of a buckler. Alternately, I could see the halberd being replaced with a one-handed weapon. I get that both the halberd and the shield scream "bodyguard!" in terms of their usage, but they are not a practical combination (the Crusader has a similar problem - armed with a two-handed sword and a large shield).

Now that I've mentioned the Crusader, I would have preferred if the Sacresant's shield had been shaped more like the Crusader's, but using the fleur de lis iconography instead of the Adeptus Ministorum iconography. The conclusion I've drawn from the different shape is that the Sacresant's shield will function differently from the Crusader's.

I'm glad that they didn't incorporate the bolt pistol into the halberd. That would have been too close to the Adeptus Custodes.

I'll almost certainly have a squad of these when I get around to expanding my Adepta Sororitas army beyond my old metal minis.


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#64
ThePenitentOne

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If it wasn't for the gun barrel behing the shield, the pole could be fed through the cutaway, effectively using the shield as the second hand for thrusting strikes. Impractical for a single trooper or MSU, but sweet for a shield wall... Or ring (GoT Battle of the Bastards).

 

But the gun barrel messes that up.



#65
Jorin Helm-splitter

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It sounded like they could be equipped with a mace instead of halberd in the preview. Lorewise have they mentioned what weapon Katherine wielded in the fluff?

#66
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It sounded like they could be equipped with a mace instead of halberd in the preview. Lorewise have they mentioned what weapon Katherine wielded in the fluff?

 

Yes, and I'm definitely fine with the mace option. My point about the halberd, though, is that polearms shouldn't even be an option when combined with those large shields. Just my opinion. cool.png


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#67
sitnam

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A mace option?!? I didn't catch that. I love the Halberd design, and will probably keep them for some kitbashes. But I love maces aesthetically and historically, so my squad will definitely have some bludgeons.

For everyone bothered by the shield+Halberd combo, the Reliquary on shapeways has some great SoB axes that might suit your tastes: https://www.shapeway...168409&li=shops
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#68
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It sounded like they could be equipped with a mace instead of halberd in the preview. Lorewise have they mentioned what weapon Katherine wielded in the fluff?

 
Yes, and I'm definitely fine with the mace option. My point about the halberd, though, is that polearms shouldn't even be an option when combined with those large shields. Just my opinion. B)

Would your opinion of the pole arm and shield change if you were made aware of its historical accuracy? Or do you feel the shield GW used to be larger than the historical example? (Or at the very least, a less desirable design)
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#69
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Would your opinion of the pole arm and shield change if you were made aware of its historical accuracy? Or do you feel the shield GW used to be larger than the historical example? (Or at the very least, a less desirable design)


Not at all, because your so-called "historical accuracy" merely represents a minority use; and instead of using something historical like the Bayeux Tapestry or other image/treatise depicting historical warfare, you chose to use a modern statue rolleyesclean.gif . While polearms were sometimes used with shields, it was far more common for them to be wielded without shields because they could be used more effectively. When used with shields, it was most often when they were being used in formations. It was far more common for large shields to be used with either spears/lances/pikes or with one-handed weapons. Even when used in formations, polearms/two-handed weapons (not including the spear/pike) were most often used without shields. A great example during the pike and shot era is the landsknechts. The Warhammer 40,000 setting, and the Adepta Sororitas in particular, don't use formations. As I stated previously, I would have preferred if GW had chosen a smaller design for the shield, something that would make the bolt weapon a bit more easy to use and which wouldn't have been as unwieldy when used in conjunction with a halberd.

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#70
jakerichmond

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Would your opinion of the pole arm and shield change if you were made aware of its historical accuracy? Or do you feel the shield GW used to be larger than the historical example? (Or at the very least, a less desirable design)


Not at all, because your so-called "historical accuracy" merely represents a minority use; and instead of using something historical like the Bayeux Tapestry or other image/treatise depicting historical warfare, you chose to use a modern statue rolleyesclean.gif . While polearms were sometimes used with shields, it was far more common for them to be wielded without shields because they could be used more effectively. When used with shields, it was most often when they were being used in formations. It was far more common for large shields to be used with either spears/lances/pikes or with one-handed weapons. Even when used in formations, polearms/two-handed weapons (not including the spear/pike) were most often used without shields. A great example during the pike and shot era is the landsknechts. The Warhammer 40,000 setting, and the Adepta Sororitas in particular, don't use formations. As I stated previously, I would have preferred if GW had chosen a smaller design for the shield, something that would make the bolt weapon a bit more easy to use and which wouldn't have been as unwieldy when used in conjunction with a halberd.

 

There's no particular reason to believe that the shield would be unwieldy or difficult to use for a power armored soldier. Its also perfectly possible that the shield if meant to be dropped once the soldier engages in close combat. Similarly, power armor may make using a one handed halberd more feasible, although I think its likely that the shield is bolted to the arm, allowing the hand to be free.



#71
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There's no particular reason to believe that the shield would be unwieldy or difficult to use for a power armored soldier. Its also perfectly possible that the shield if meant to be dropped once the soldier engages in close combat. Similarly, power armor may make using a one handed halberd more feasible, although I think its likely that the shield is bolted to the arm, allowing the hand to be free.


It's not an issue of strength, however. It's an issue of maneuverability. Wielding a shield isn't as simple as just strapping a board to your arm and enjoying the benefits. Shields are maneuvered in certain ways and used in tandem with the weapon in the bearer's other hand. The off hand generally holds the shield in front of the body to intercept the opponent's blows. With a polearm, the off hand generally holds the lower portion of the weapon. There are times when someone can hold a shield in a position from which they can effectively defend while holding a polearm, but unless the polearm is being used primarily as a thrusting weapon in the manner of a spear, pike, or lance, using the polearm effectively in a normal two-handed manner renders the shield significantly less effective. Yes, there are times when the polearm/shield combination has been done, but it was found to be sub-optimal and the preponderance of polearm usage was sans shield (or with small shields and bucklers).

Also, while Adepta Sororitas power armour is known to enhance the strength of the wearer, it's not a significant enhancement. True, it makes bearing heavy weapons less problematic, but a battle sister in power armour still has the same Strength as an unarmoured Repentia, and unarmoured preacher, and an Astra Militarum trooper in carapace armour: 3. While there are level of abstractions there and the power armoured sister probably has a strength that is fractionally higher than each of the other three, the end-strength remains roughly analogous to an unarmoured unaugmented human being.

Regardless, while I don't like the shield and polearm combination, I will probably have some of them in my army. I like the halberd, after all. It's simply that the majority of these models in my army will probably have maces (depending on how effective they are). It's possible that the halberds will be sufficiently better than the maces such that I'll decide to go against my objections. It's just a game, after all, so I can accept things that I think are silly for the rule of cool and tabletop effectiveness.


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#72
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I double checked and the sisters bulletin for them does mention maces.

My bet is that the maces will be d2 and the halberds will grant an extra attack but be only be d1. That's pure speculation though.

#73
War Angel

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I chose to use the first image I saw as opposed to spending time appealing to your whims, you don’t like it then you don’t like it.

Wait... what did you say? While polearms were sometimes used with shields they more often weren’t? SO ITS ACCURATE!

Edited by War Angel, 26 April 2021 - 05:00 PM.


#74
jakerichmond

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There's no particular reason to believe that the shield would be unwieldy or difficult to use for a power armored soldier. Its also perfectly possible that the shield if meant to be dropped once the soldier engages in close combat. Similarly, power armor may make using a one handed halberd more feasible, although I think its likely that the shield is bolted to the arm, allowing the hand to be free.

Also, while Adepta Sororitas power armour is known to enhance the strength of the wearer, it's not a significant enhancement. True, it makes bearing heavy weapons less problematic, but a battle sister in power armour still has the same Strength as an unarmoured Repentia, and unarmoured preacher, and an Astra Militarum trooper in carapace armour: 3. While there are level of abstractions there and the power armoured sister probably has a strength that is fractionally higher than each of the other three, the end-strength remains roughly analogous to an unarmoured unaugmented human being.

 

This is obviously not true. Sisters are using bolters one handed and heavy weapons that Marines need special bracing for. The Power Armor pretty obviously enhances strength.

 


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#75
War Angel

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The strength stat in the game likely only represents melee attack strength, not lifting strength.




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