So DG are the strongest army in the game right now.

[Ishagu]

Based on the latest tracking, 1 in 6 death guard players makes it into the top 10% of any tournament.

Death Guard have 37 placings in the top 10% in recent events.

The runner up is Dark Angels with 25 placings.

Orks are doing well with 15. For context chapters that haven't been updated in 9th like the Ultramarines only have 5 placings in the top 10% during the same period.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Xenith
Inflammatory.

[Brother Tyler]

I think that the key is recognizing that the Death Guard are performing well right now, but that is likely to change as more and more codices/codex supplements are released for 9th edition.

[Ishagu]

I think that the key is recognizing that the Death Guard are performing well right now, but that is likely to change as more and more codices/codex supplements are released for 9th edition.

Yeah definitely. I think Sisters and AdMech will have a big impact on the game.

[Brother Kraskor]

Based on the latest tracking, 1 in 6 death guard players makes it into the top 10% of any tournament.

 

Death Guard have 37 placings in the top 10% in recent events.

 

The runner up is Dark Angels with 25 placings.

 

Orks are doing well with 15. For context chapters that haven't been updated in 9th like the Ultramarines only have 5 placings in the top 10% during the same period.

 

So... remember when some people on this forum were complaining that the faction has been nerfed? with the new codex? Lol seems a bit silly now.

 

 

I think relying on statistics at a time like this is unwise. Even in parts of the world where lockdowns are not in effect, player habits and willingness to attend tournaments are skewed. And furthermore, while a catchy headline, you need to interrogate that stat further. It could just indicate that certain DG players know how to get the most out of their codex, for example, or any other factor (and yes that includes that the codex is 'strong' by whatever metric). But my honest feeling is that you just wanted to provoke a reaction with this post!

[Xenith]

My melta's aimed at the back of this thread's head. Play nice.

 

Ishagu, please can you share a link to the tournament reports you cite? Without evidence, it's hard to support your argument. 

 

Being on the receiving end of a DG list this week, I can say it feels pretty powerful, and they seemed to have a hard counter to everything my BA could throw at them. Sanguinary guard with D2 swords? 50% damage reduction. 3D6 charge from deepstrike? Inexorable strat for -2 charge. Storm shields? -1AP on every attack from within contagion range, and that's just a single Plague Company. 

 

The book is extremely powerful, and in my opinion, the lack of sample size is a bad argument. Any hardcore tourney player will have been attending if they can. There is also the skewed stat that hardcore gamers go for strong books, so if there's plenty of DG attending, it's because competitive players see it as a strong book.

 

What remains to be seen is how it influences the meta. Prior to this book, marines got +1W, and weapons shifted to D2 where possible, which is now useless against DG, where you're better off with multiple D1 weapons. If the meta shifts to dealing with Death Guard, Marines might end up slightly stronger in take-all-comers games. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Xenith

[Special Officer Doofy]

not bothering to get involved on a topic where mods selectively remove comments without deleting the original bait

Haha welcome to bolter and chainsword! This whole thread is stupid, considering who started it only makes it worse.

 

Codex creep has and probably always will be a thing, and by the time DG came out it was just them, space marines and necrons, so I'm not surprised at all. I'd be surprised if in over a year's time DG was still doing as well, you know, once all the Xenos codexes, other chaos, and remaining imperium codexes are out. At any rate, DG had the lowest mono win rate in 8th after inquisition (which let's be honest is not really a faction), so if they have their few months in 9th of being the best, then so be it.

[excelite]

Ishagu, please can you share a link to the tournament reports you cite? Without evidence, it's hard to support your argument.

Iirc those stats come from a auspex tactics video on YouTube I listened to while painting... to be fair, it was stated at the beginning that the numbers are not representative due to low survey count and no normalization of entrants...

 

And better surveyed results should be taken from other places (stated at the end, I think)

Edited April 14, 2021 by excelite

[Lucerne]

 

Ishagu, please can you share a link to the tournament reports you cite? Without evidence, it's hard to support your argument.

Iirc those stats come from a auspex tactics video on YouTube I listened to while painting... to be fair, it was stated at the beginning that the numbers are not representative due to low survey count and no normalization of entrants...

 

And better surveyed results should be taken from other places (stated at the end, I think)

 

Imagine my surprise that Ish would leave that little tidbit out.

 

I'm starting to think this thread mayyyyyyyyy not have an objective and factual basis.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Lucerne

[Skywrath]

So let me get this straight. You are writing this thread with the intent just to say, "I told you so?". Pretty sure there were other people on this forum or outside the forum that had the same thought as you did, and I'm pretty sure they also had more objective sources of information other than Auspex Tactics. Not to mention, the other top players in the world were probably way ahead on the "DG are OP train" before you.  

 

That being said, while DG are a royal pain, I don't seem to have *that* many issues with them as a Custodian. My recent list runs two Achilles, Aquillon with Adrathic Destructors and a SC in terminator armor that does 6 flat damage on a wound of 6. Throw in a few Vertus Praetors with another SC on bike, and you are laughing. Bear in mind, this list is designed for the tournament, where the meta is people running Death Guard, with most of them adding Mortarion also. But what I'm saying with this, is that DG can be beat if you play smart enough. 

[Ishagu]

I hope this thread gets melta'd soon. It seems to only be here to provoke others. I am glad that Death Guard are doing well in tournaments.

Auspex Tactics on YouTube shared the data. It's worth a watch!

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Ishagu

[McElMcNinja]

Going to throw my hat in on this one. We have tough units, good choices for plague companies, and potentially strong offensive capabilities. What keeps us from winning more games is our lack of strong secondaries choices. Other new codex have what I consider easy secondaries that almost guarantee 15 points. For example the DAs can sit on an objective for 5 turns, imagine if we had one that easy. We actually have to move out and earn ours while others just have to sit there. It’s just going to get tougher for us as more codex come out.

[Xenith]

Seems my initial gentle nudge went unheeded so time for orange text.

 

++Keep on topic or we get locked. Discussion on perceived or actual DG strength and tourney standings, not other frater.++

[Prot]

I have played this army over the years, and now I play against it.... a lot. If I had to guess, I'd say I've played against the new Death Guard about 20 or so times.

 

I've played against them with almost every army I own. The funny thing is these games are all hard fought.

 

So I'm going to give you my honest opinion based on my own experiences.

 

In a nutshell I give the army about an 8 out of 10 purely on the competitive level. I think it is worthy of a 9 with one HUGE caveat; this army is a 'general's' army. What I mean by that is this army requires very competent guidance against less that stellar match ups. 

 

Some armies do the same thing every game. Some armies are very good at one thing, and they exercise that one detail to an extreme until you are dead. Death Guard are very solid, but on a few levels they still have to be careful and they are pretty far from a point and click army.

 

Some examples for you guys:

- My Ultramarines are in a hot battle here but I can beat the DG, however being aggressive (For me) is suicide in this match up.

 

- My White Scars struggle mightily here. It feels like everything White Scars do well is absolutely negated by the mere existence of DG. (IE: speed to fight first, getting close fast, getting +1 damage on super doctrine.) Since it is the White Scars mantra to forgo a bit of shooting, this plays right into the hands of the DG player. If you get there too fast, you just lose your toughness, and all those Damage 2 Chainswords go back to D1, negating the super doctrine to a large degree. Death Guard have caused me to redevelop my White Scars entirely.

 

- AdMech: Again tough match up...Even a smattering of Obscuring and cover makes this a battle to the death. These games have thankfully been close, but the Admech most assuredly need first turn in this match up. That said I have won a few tight ones here.

 

- Eldar: Forget it. (Not worth talking about 'til the new dex.)

 

- Black Legion: same as above. 

 

- Custodes: Really tight match up. Both armies LOVE the Primary game. This is another tight battle to the end.

 

- Thousand Sons: Here's a weird outlier. Can you guess why? Mortal wounds are greater than toughness buffs and aura's. Thousand Sons currently do not want to play the close combat game either. So this is a weird scenario where I've had these really close games everytime, but I usually eek out the victory. Who knows what this means in a few months.

 

My Conclusions:

As you can see, the commonality here is 'close games'. That's a great strength of DG. They really are able to hang with a lot of different types of armies, and their strength in Primary scoring really is their bread and butter. Shifting a 'good' DG player as far as board control is a difficult task. And once they are in to you, 90% of armies experience a performance degradation that can be very difficult to emerge victorious from. An early lead can be huge for the 'shooty' opponent.

 

Great match ups include some of the most popular armies in the game: especially Codex Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines. Bad match ups can be vehicle heavy (which is overall an inferior build in 9th ironically) and high volume shooty combined with speed. Dark Eldar have come out of the gates hard and to me seem to be the natural nemesis of a good DG player. A good 'generals' battle to be sure.

 

If you're playing on a solid, proper, 9th edition table top with terrain, I still think a good DG general is going to do very well in any tournament meta at this time. But 9th is a strange animal.  I never had this feeling in 8th where every codex seems to be making a new bench mark for competition through some means. The game seems to be going to a volatile paper/rock/scissors design, so time will tell. It's still early.

 

Regardless from all that I've seen/played, DG are not often hit with that 'magic bullet' matchup like some other armies can be, and I still think it's one of the more diverse, and fun armies to play out there.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Prot

[Marshal Loss]

Now that the original inflammatory remark has been removed, my thoughts:

 

Auspex Tactics is an unreliable source of data, his analyses aren't very good, and the premise of the topic - that "DG are the strongest army in the game" - can't be stated as a fact, because it isn't backed up by facts. The data in that video is not exhaustive/is far from authoritative. Death Guard are very strong, but they aren't a statistical juggernaut as implied above. Goonhammer noted in their April SOTS that their initially "eye-watering" win rate has already started to drop off, and the picture may look very different in a couple of months. Or, it may not - that's why we need more data.

 

in my opinion, the lack of sample size is a bad argument.

 

Evaluating competitive trends in 40k without a large sample size is fraught with peril. The competitive meta, different as it is in innumerable different contexts, is a living beast. Given that the Death Guard book is an early & recent release in a new edition, and is the only one of its kind (traitor marines), we shouldn't leap to conclusions. Having a smaller dataset means that results can be swung heavily by only a small number of events (which, in isolation, may not be indicative), and doesn't account for the quality of different events.

 

I think Death Guard are going to fall off heavily as more 9th edition books come out. As Ninja said our secondaries are quite weak, and we can be very predictable - even when considering the large variety of potential builds we have access to. When we were first released there was a lot of hyperbole f'rex about Mortarion being some kind of unkillable auto-win button, with many topics floating around here and elsewhere saying that he needed to cop a points increase, and less than 2 months later that kind of rhetoric has already disappeared/toned down dramatically. Things are moving very quickly in 9th.

 

As it stands, I think Death Guard are one of the top 4-5 armies in the game. What I love is that our weaknesses are what you'd expect from the Death Guard, which is a testament to how well-designed the book is, imo.

 

edit: For people who want to read a wide range of perspectives from tournament goers on the current strength of DG, WarhammerCompetitive is a great resource for this.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[WickedJester1013]

To be fair it’s easy to be strong or weak when the only codices out are marines, 1 chaos and 2 Xenos. If you can fight marines well then you’ll be strong, if you can’t fight marines you’ll be weak. I think when one of the “horde” armies like orks get a proper release you’ll see if deathguard can stand the test of time.

[Plague _Lord]

Even though I have yet to lose with my Deathguard, I wouldn't call them OP. Every game I won was by a margin of around 5 points and the games were utter bloodbaths. Yes they are quite strong and they have a few playstyles. I think the codex is well balanced.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They have already been eclipsed by the new Drukhari… just wait until Admech and SoB are released. To me it just feels like 8th edition with each new codex becoming the top dawg. It’s a cycle stretched out by the slower release.

[Azekai]

They have already been eclipsed by the new Drukhari… just wait until Admech and SoB are released. To me it just feels like 8th edition with each new codex becoming the top dawg. It’s a cycle stretched out by the slower release.

That wasn’t true for early 8th. The first space marine codex and the grey knights were very restrained... which meant those armies suffered when the power creep started amping up later in the edition.

 

People clamor for their codexes to come out quickly but I am very much in a ‘wait and see’ mindset. I would much rather my faction comes out later after some of the dust has been allowed to settle. DG may not be the next GK dex; however, many options in the codex that seem to be hobbled specifically because the designers were worried about Mortarion’s sons being overbearingly powerful (weird limits on poxwalkers, limits on lords/DPs, very limited synergies).

[techsoldaten]

 

They have already been eclipsed by the new Drukhari… just wait until Admech and SoB are released. To me it just feels like 8th edition with each new codex becoming the top dawg. It’s a cycle stretched out by the slower release.

That wasn’t true for early 8th. The first space marine codex and the grey knights were very restrained... which meant those armies suffered when the power creep started amping up later in the edition.

 

People clamor for their codexes to come out quickly but I am very much in a ‘wait and see’ mindset. I would much rather my faction comes out later after some of the dust has been allowed to settle. DG may not be the next GK dex; however, many options in the codex that seem to be hobbled specifically because the designers were worried about Mortarion’s sons being overbearingly powerful (weird limits on poxwalkers, limits on lords/DPs, very limited synergies).

 

 

Drukari are obviously very tough.

 

Is this really a power creep issue, or are DG just running into a tough challenger? Will lists adapt to the new meta, or has the Drukari Codex permanently consigned them to a lower tier?

 

Forgive me if the question seems too simple, trying to separate the noise from the signal.

[MegaVolt87]

IMO DE have always had favourable matchups against MEQ type armies, regardless of edition. They are a general's army that rewards player skill. They can run a focused build because the other xenos codexes have yet to appear to juke them in 9th so far.

 

Also anecdotally, many CSM players look to take DE as their first xenos army- because they are forced to up their skill and synergy of units to just compete playing CSM, so DE aren't a "difficult" faction for them to use as a result.

[Marshal Loss]

IMO DE have always had favourable matchups against MEQ type armies, regardless of edition.

This is true. That being said, there are no favourable matchups against Dark Eldar at the moment. We'll see whether the Adeptus Mechanicus shakes things up soon enough.

[McElMcNinja]

I will says again, until we get at least one good secondary we will not be competitive in today’s environment. And as more codex come out, we will suffer (lose) more. We have a strong codex, but all of the 9th edition codex have better secondaries. If major tournaments ban codex secondaries then we can compete, but if they allow codex secondaries then no, I don’t think we have a good chance of competing on a level field.

Our codex is good enough to compete with any army, but we lack when it comes to a strong secondary that allows us an easy 15 points that others have.

[Azekai]

Honestly having bespoke secondaries be a thing in each codex seems like GW is asking for trouble from a game design standpoint. It is just more asymmetry that will easily get out of hand. One more way for already strong codexes to win harder.

[INKS]

It takes so long for all the codices to come out that DG will remain near the top for a good long while. That isn't really a problem or issue. DA are also very good right now (ravenwing / deathwing combo) and Dark Elder are also very strong with their new dex.

 

I expect that Admech and SoB will also be strong contenders as they get their codices as well. It's a shame that some of the older dex's don't get proper updated as time goes on but that is the way the cookie crumbles. 

 

That being said, there are winning lists of Nids out there right now and they don't have a new codex. I think DG are fine the way they are right now. near the top, good solid army to play.

[Bat33.1]

So after a couple more months where do we think Death Guard are in the competitive scene now?

 

They've taken some hits and DE are proving to be at the OP level in the hands of a strong player with at least 65% win rate in GTs even after Ad Mech released. SoB might take a bit of time to work through the new book and play some events before data shows up.

 

The last data I saw put DG at close to 50% down 2.5% on the month before and Marines dropping below 50% to around 48% and to my mind this is where GW should be aiming to get all armies in the game as close to 50/50 as possible but we will always have an outlier codex but DE and Ad Mech are measurably higher than other armies with competitive abilities that are not going to be fixed by pure points increases.

 

I'd love to hear other DG players take on this and even Ishagu if he plays nice

Edited July 3, 2021 by PJ1933