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Codex Incoming!


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#401
Blurf

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Are sacrestants worth it compared to repentia though?


Different roles. Sacresants are much more a unit that can take a point and be hard to shift. Repentia are missiles you have to hide before they are used and then die after they've killed their target. Which is better depends on what you need done.

 

Honestly, one of the most powerful things you can do with sacresants is camp them out of LoS and make Celestine/Vahl/Stern/Melee Canoness untargetable even if they're totally out in the open.


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#402
Beams

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Are sacrestants worth it compared to repentia though?


Different roles. Sacresants are much more a unit that can take a point and be hard to shift. Repentia are missiles you have to hide before they are used and then die after they've killed their target. Which is better depends on what you need done.

 

Honestly, one of the most powerful things you can do with sacresants is camp them out of LoS and make Celestine/Vahl/Stern/Melee Canoness untargetable even if they're totally out in the open.

 

 

My experience is that with Repentia, you really need a lot more to make them great -- a transport or something to keep them from dying, plus a priest and a Mistress. 

 

My sacresants usually just walk down the field with a Beat Canoness, who more or less is free to do their own thing -- and they can really take a surprising amount of damage before they are taken out, while Repentia die to stubbings of toes. 


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#403
Montford

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Had a game against Custodes yesterday and Ephrael Stern's defense of the center objective (#23 The Scouring) on turn 4 tipped the game in my favor in a come from behind win. I have taken her in four games now and she has earned her points.


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Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#404
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Had a game against Custodes yesterday and Ephrael Stern's defense of the center objective (#23 The Scouring) on turn 4 tipped the game in my favor in a come from behind win. I have taken her in four games now and she has earned her points.

I have a big tournament coming up in October that I'm furiously painting for and I'm so tempted to do a hero-hammer Stern+Morvenn+Celestine+One of the Super Canonesses lists. The only problem is that spending that much on characters means you either take Valorous Heart/AS for objective control and leave the characters your only real melee OR you take bloody rose and rely on unbuffed retributors and dominions as your only shooting.


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#405
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Had a game against Custodes yesterday and Ephrael Stern's defense of the center objective (#23 The Scouring) on turn 4 tipped the game in my favor in a come from behind win. I have taken her in four games now and she has earned her points.

I have a big tournament coming up in October that I'm furiously painting for and I'm so tempted to do a hero-hammer Stern+Morvenn+Celestine+One of the Super Canonesses lists. The only problem is that spending that much on characters means you either take Valorous Heart/AS for objective control and leave the characters your only real melee OR you take bloody rose and rely on unbuffed retributors and dominions as your only shooting.

 

Good luck on the tournament! I'll bet seeing Morvenn & Celestine on the table is going to give your opponents some anxiety! (And Stern too if they know what she can do) msn-wink.gif

 

I have been running Celestine, Stern and a Canoness in a  Sacred Rose army. I'm still tweaking it and also getting a better grip on the new Codex rules, but I am really liking it.


Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#406
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So I just noticed something:

 

Celestian Sacresants have the "Celestian" keyword, as well as the "Celestian Sacresant" keyword.

 

That means they can benefit from both the "Exceptional Proficiency" stratagem as well as the "Holy Rage" stratagem. 

With a priest in tow and "the passion" (playing Ebon Chalice so I get to double dip), I'm looking at one hell of a blender.


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#407
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So I just noticed something:

 

Celestian Sacresants have the "Celestian" keyword, as well as the "Celestian Sacresant" keyword.

 

That means they can benefit from both the "Exceptional Proficiency" stratagem as well as the "Holy Rage" stratagem. 

With a priest in tow and "the passion" (playing Ebon Chalice so I get to double dip), I'm looking at one hell of a blender.

Before I used them, people I play with (who don't play sisters) said they were extremely disappointed in their stat lines, and that they wanted them to be "Bladeguard Vets?".

 

With all the buffs they have access to, they can't get any better. I generally hit more times than I have attacks, thanks to the 6's add hits sacred rite and the +1 to hit stratagem, and since you are core, they re-roll ones.

 

They are my favorite unit model wise that sisters have (without a kitbash) and in game, they are a meat wood chipper. 


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#408
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I got in a game last night with my Sisters.  I play Bloody Rose and noticed something in the Quick to Anger conviction.

 

It says, "Each time a model with this conviction makes a melee attack, if that model's unit made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 1."

 

Does this mean that a Battle Sister punching with her fist gets a -1 AP?

 

That's what it seems to be saying, but since I play Bloody Rose and that would give me a hella advantage, I thought I should ask the community and find out what everyone else thinks.

 

Thanks.



#409
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Does this mean that a Battle Sister punching with her fist gets a -1 AP?

Yes, that is exactly what that means.


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#410
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Thanks.  I thought that was what it meant, but, this IS GW, so,,,,

 

Now I feel a little better about punching my buddy's Ravager to death with a squad of Battle Sisters.  biggrin.png



#411
Joukernaut

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Don’t forget you can give them “holy rage” and let them reroll all their hits. I’ve done this once on a 20 man bloody rose blob with “war hym” on them for funsies. Turned out to be pretty decent actually although the buffs would probably have been even more effective somewhere else.
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#412
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Can we get some discussion going on the Triumph of St. Kath and how it is in the new Codex?  I haven't found much info available either in battle reports or dedicated unit discussions.

 

I love the model (currently working on it).   Do people find that it works well?   What's its primary function? fire magnet?  If you just throw it out to get shot at, can it tank hits well with 4++ and -1 to be shot?  Put a hospitaller behind it for 6+++ and healing, but will it go down in one round of shooting too easily?


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#413
Montford

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Placed an order with my FLGS for a Castigator. Looking forward to trying it out!


Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#414
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Placed an order with my FLGS for a Castigator. Looking forward to trying it out!

 

Everybody hating on tanks, but I'm not sure I agree.  Do people not have LOS blocking terrain on the tables they use?  There is usually enough terrain to block shooting from at least one, if not all, anti-tank platforms. Then you have the ability to pop smoke (-1 to hit), as well as miracle dice to SoF at least one of the big melta shots that gets through. (I'm Ebon Chalice/terrible knowledge so I always have a 6 on standbye.)  The thing has some solid shooting if it can live.  And if your opponent is Drukhari blasters or Eldar bright lances on fast platforms, maybe consider outflanking it.


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#415
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I too am looking forward to the Castigator. I know it's probably 15-20 points to expensive to see competitive play, but I think it's very reasonable for friendly games. You definitely need proper amounts of board cover to keep this guy alive though.

I like the autocannon variant for the masses of D2 ap-1 it can dish out which make it very dangerous for light vehicles as well as heavy and light infantry. With Sisters, Ad Mech, and Necrons all running big blobs of infantry this variant can fill a needed gap in long range fire power for sisters.

The cannon variant is more tricky. It does both antitank and anti-infantry pretty well but I think it will take 5s and 6s Miracle dice to make the number of D6 shot work and those are the same dice I generally save to spike my melta damage. Ebbon Chalice or Sacred Rose might get those most out of the cannon.

Xeno

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#416
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What do you guys think about a Valorous Heart Phalanx that can be added to any force?

400 points wall of spears that is ridiculously hard to shift/deal with:

 

a cheap palatine with the Emperor's Grace miraculous ability (1x/battle allows units within miracle range to deny opponent rerolling hits/wounds).

 

2x10 Sacresancts (equip how you like; mine are with spear of faithful and inferno pistol) 300 pts.

1 hospitaller backing them up.

 

So you have a unit that is:

5+++ vs. mortal wounds

6+++ vs. all wounds

2+ against all ap -1 or less

3+ against ap -2

4++ against any/every thing else.

 

in a pinch you throw in inviolate shieldwall to make opponent wound on 4's. 

round 1 or 2 (depending on if you get initiative) burn your Emperor's grace ability.

and every turn your healing d3 of them.


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#417
Maschinenpriester

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I have had my first game with the new codex last weekend.

My list was roughly this:

 

Minoris Convictions: Guieded by the emperor's Will (rerolls) + Raging Frevor (Melta Buff)

 

HQ: Morvenn Vahl; Canoness with Inferno Pistol + Blessed Blade; Missionary with Chain sword+ bolt pistol

 

1 x 8 Arco Flagellants

 

2 x5 BSS with a Heavy melta

1 x 5 Bss  with a heavy flamer

 

1 x 5 Seraphim with inferno Pistols

1 x 5 Seraphim with hand flamers

1 x 5 Dominons with Combi Bolters

 

1 Exorcist Tank (Conflaggration Rockets)

1 x 6 Retributors with 4 Heavy Melters + Cerubim + Combi Flamer

1 Pentinent engine with heavy flamers and buzz saw blades

 

1 Immolator Tank w. Heavy Melta

 

I was maxing out on the melta buffs and this worked out quite nicely. Morvenn vahl is a good support character and her shooting output is respectable. The rerolls on the retributor squad did some damage.

I definitely feel that arco falggelants are a hidden gem in the new codex. Especially when Buffed with a Missionary and/or Inquisitor. They where strong before. But now they have T4 instead of T3 it seems.

 

The Exorcist Tank felt a bit lacking, but ill keep taking It anyways because its my favourite model till now. The Immolator was OK, next TIme I will try It with flamers so It remains cheaper.

 

The Pentinent Engine felt solid too. I feel a blob of 4 could do some serious damage with flails and that max flamer Strat.

 

Speaking of which. The Seraphim with hand Flamers realy have been shining here. I Equipped the Superior with that Blessings of Sebastioan Thor granting the squad AP-1 on 6s to wound. This increased the damage output a bit.

 

In general the new codex feels solid from what I have seen. Much more to try out yet though. I am Exited to test out the new rules for Celestine.


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#418
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I too am looking forward to the Castigator. I know it's probably 15-20 points to expensive to see competitive play, but I think it's very reasonable for friendly games. You definitely need proper amounts of board cover to keep this guy alive though.
I like the autocannon variant for the masses of D2 ap-1 it can dish out which make it very dangerous for light vehicles as well as heavy and light infantry. With Sisters, Ad Mech, and Necrons all running big blobs of infantry this variant can fill a needed gap in long range fire power for sisters.
The cannon variant is more tricky. It does both antitank and anti-infantry pretty well but I think it will take 5s and 6s Miracle dice to make the number of D6 shot work and those are the same dice I generally save to spike my melta damage. Ebbon Chalice or Sacred Rose might get those most out of the cannon.


Can't use miracle dice on # of shots. I was confused what you guys were talking about, Castigators get nothing out of MD offensively.

I would argue that it's 40pts too expensive to not be actively detrimental. The immolator does what it does better for cheaper, is a transport, and STILL sucks.

The problem with the 'use LOS terrain' argument is that it doesn't ignore LOS. If you pop it out to shoot at a laschicken or ravager, they can see you too. The big difference is that the laschicken or ravager will survive a round of Castigator shooting but the Castigator has a roughly 0% chance of surviving the return volley. It's easily the worst unit in the codex and it's the only unit I refuse to buy because of how trash it is. They ruined the Exorcist trying to make people buy this POS and I hate it.
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#419
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Well that's good to know MD don't work for number of shots before I tried to use it. However, I don't consider comparing the Castigator to the two most brokenly undercosted vehicles in the game to be a meaningful point of discussion on it's merit. Nothing compares well to a chicken walker, even after the nerf they're still undercosted, that's why they are a meta staple. Unless your opponents are exclusively meta chasers it's ok to like units that arnt in the tournament scene. I also doubt GW priced the Exorcist to sell Castigators because if they did they failed to make the Castigator a markedly better choice. If one looks at the Drukkari and Ad Mech books, it's far easier to assume GW is absolutely clueless about rules balance than it is to assume some insidious marketing ploy.
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Xeno

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#420
Beams

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Well that's good to know MD don't work for number of shots before I tried to use it. However, I don't consider comparing the Castigator to the two most brokenly undercosted vehicles in the game to be a meaningful point of discussion on it's merit. Nothing compares well to a chicken walker, even after the nerf they're still undercosted, that's why they are a meta staple. Unless your opponents are exclusively meta chasers it's ok to like units that arnt in the tournament scene. I also doubt GW priced the Exorcist to sell Castigators because if they did they failed to make the Castigator a markedly better choice. If one looks at the Drukkari and Ad Mech books, it's far easier to assume GW is absolutely clueless about rules balance than it is to assume some insidious marketing ploy.

 

The exorcist in 7th Edition was D6 shots and AP 1, back when most tanks and artillery had a static "1" for number of shots. It also had a stormbolter, so if you suffered weapon destroyed you wouldn't lose the main cannon, and a laud hailer to buff nearby sisters infantry, in what was a super cool and thematic unit, that could be incredibly powerful but also incredibly unreliable.

It also had heavier front armor then a rhino, due to the extra armor plating. Ap -1 meant it got a +2 to vehicle damage table.

 

A Leman Russ Battle Cannon, on the other hand, fired ONE Str 8, Ap 3 Large Blast, meaning against tanks you got 1 shot, with no bonus on the vehicle damage table, and against a squad you got one shot that might hit a few of them or miss entirely.

 

If you've been playing since then, it's been a real disappointment every codex since.

 

8th Edition Index --> Everything else goes from 1 shot to D6, the exorcist stays the same, and becomes Str 8 Ap -4 D6, which sounds great but compared to a standard Leman Russ is actually worse, despite costing more. They also lose the Laud Hailer, which gave all Sisters of Battle a bonus when around them. It wasn't really a big deal, but was incredibly thematic to have. It also meant that it no longer felt "unreliable" when compared to other tanks in the game.

 

8th Edition Codexes --> Most tanks get a double fire rule, making the comparison vs Leman Russes even worse! While Exorcists get a heavy bolter version of their weapon, and the main one becomes Str 8 Ap -3 D6, losing a point of armor penetration. 

 

 

 

9th Edition Codex --> Exorcists get a very small buff, and a huge nerf. They get 3d3 shots, but lose the stratagem to reroll number of shots, lose the ability to get reroll 1's from a Canoness or any other buffs, and also lose 1 pt of toughness. They also get a heavy bolter, for some reason.  Most importantly, though, is we are now at AP -2, which is a long way away from ignoring all armor..

 

So a 9th edition Exorcist is this: Very reliable machine of war, that fires medium power shots akin to old hunter killer missiles.

A 7th edition Exorcist was: A terrifying weapon of war, that was incredibly unreliable. It might insta-death a squad of Grey Knight Paladins, or rip open medium vehicles without much issue, or it might roll one shot and do nothing. 

 

GW has changed the "fantasy" behind the Exorcist entirely. I still love the model, but I really loved the "We don't really know how technology works, and this is especially volatile" fantasy behind the Exorcist, and now it's just kind of a standard all-around tank.


Edited by Beams, 06 August 2021 - 03:44 PM.


#421
ThePenitentOne

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I like the fact that the Exorcist gained access to indirect fire; still not sure it makes up for the nerfs, so I see where you're coming from. But man I love the possibility of just sitting somewhere where I'm invisible and raining fire down on the enemy.

 

It sucks to pay for the strat and roll triple ones for the number of shots though.



#422
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Ok guys I have an idea for an anti-psyker Becky. I don't think anyone has posted this build yet:

 

Canoness equipped with

-Chainsword

-Condemnor Boltgun

-Brazier of Holy Fire

 

-Give her the Sacred Rose relic (Light of St. Agnaetha)

-Give her "Righteous Judgment" blessing (ignore "look out sir" and wound rolls of 6 = 1 mortal wound)

-Give her the "light of the divine" warlord trait.

 

So this character can shoot out a possible 9 shots (1 from condemnor combi, 2 from boltgun combi, and d6 from the brazier).  The brazier and condemnor can both be fired in the same round since neither carries the pistol or grenade constraints.  You can ignore Look out sir for all shots.   From the relic, any 4+ gives you mortal wounds, and any wound rolls of 6 generate 2 mortal wounds instead of 1 because of the Righteous Judgment blessing.  From the Condemnor Boltgun, any 6's generate 1 mortal wound.  Additionally, if you target a pyschic character with the condemnor Stake, you're doing another d3 mortal wounds. 

 

You can, potentially, kick out:

-2 mortal wounds from the bolter (both hit and both roll 6's to wound)

-4 mortal wounds from the condemnor stake (roll 6 to wound +3 mortal wounds special ability)

-12 mortal wounds from the brazier (all hit automatically, then all 6's to wound = brazier proc + blessing proc = 2 mortal wounds per hit)

 

That's a max of 18 mortal wounds.

 

Obviously, you're never going to anywhere near that upper end proc, but I do think it's possible to get:

1 mortal wound out of actually rolling 6's to wound

3 mortal wounds from the condemnor stake (save a miracle die for this)

2 mortal wounds from rolling 4+ to wound on the brazier

 

So that's 6 mortal wounds, plus anything that actually gets through from the boltgun or the condemnor stake.  That's enough to take down most infantry sized psykers in the game in one shot.

 

Obviously a niche-specific thing, but this could also be super effective against Grey Knights / Thousand Sons. 

 

Thoughts?


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#423
EmperorGTank

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With regard to the Castigator vs Exorcist discussion, personally the Exorcist is the one main issue I have with this codex (despite the fact I bring one in almost every list for the utility of being able to indirect fire). I honestly would have been fine with the toughness, wounds, and even AP nerf if at least the missiles went down in cost. Paying 180 points for a tank with AP -2 "melta missiles" for the utility of being able to indirect fire with a strat is just too expensive. In contrast the Castigator being 165 with the battle cannon, while cheaper, definitely suffers from the same problems most vehicles do this edition but I find value in it to some degree because of the Strength 9 it finally brings to the army (plus 72" range cuz I like having some "almost" Guard level firepower). Despite d6 shots being swingy it also brings that anti-infantry profile with 3d3 shots for some versatility, and a flat three damage on the cannon definitely opens up MD to be used for any melta damage you have. I LOVE the Exorcist for the many reasons listed in the postws above, not only what it used to be in 5th, 6th, 7th edition (13/11/10 armor, d6 strength 8 AP 1 missiles that could strike fear or, admittedly, do nothing) but also for its awesome lore and how it is as much of a shrine as it is a tank, but it has taken nerf after nerf since the start of 8th despite getting a more reliable number of shots. Personally, it should be 150 points base like it is, and then only remain 180 with the missiles if they continued being AP -3 AND it received a constant indirect fire rule on both of its missile variants. Now that it has lost AP, toughness, wounds, and only really gained the stratagem it should be at most 160 with the missiles and then 150 with the rockets like it is. I will probably be getting a Castigator just for that strength 9 cannon to add to the army, but I see niche value in both vehicles, with each having some kind of role in the army.

I completely respect and recognize that vehicles right now suck and neither tank is great or even good, but I do think with enough of a points drop the Exorcist could be a niche play for the indirect fire strat. It should be 150-160 points for the Exorcist and then the Castigator about where it is at 160-165. If you make them about the same number of points then you actually have to make a conscious choice between a slightly swingy d6 strength 9 Ap -3 D3 Blast weapon or a more reliable 3d3 strength 8 AP -2 D6 weapon that you can guarantee some damage on with MD. I think there is much more I could say about how I feel about the Exorcist, but I have 2 and absolutely love this tank and just want it to be the terror it used to be. it was not seeing THAT much play before and GW just went and nerfed it to either sell the Castigator or some other BS reason. I understand it shouldn't have T8 since it is a "rhino chassis" but it was always Armor 13 instead of the base 11 that other rhino level vehicles were, so I could have at least seen it keeping the 12 wounds instead of going to 11, but the AP nerf was just unnecessary for ONLY a drop of 15 points. Again I could probably rant on and on about this but at this point I just hope in CA 2022 this year we see just a general points drop to most vehicles including ours. I know that won't completely fix the issue but paying the 135 that the Exorcist used to be would feel so much better right now, and the Immolator needs to go back to 110 points max with its weapons and the Castigator can go to 140 or 145 or whatever.

I know I probably seem sour with all this, but I do really enjoy playing with our book and overall I think this codex is strong while not being "broken." I have won about 90% of the games I have played with it, even incredibly close ones, by playing the objective game well and prioritizing targets pretty well too so I think we can easily stand with the top books right now, even Admech. But I just want the Exorcist back to what I know it used to be, along with another Tank (Castigator) that I can have on the front lines, while my organ artillery sits in the back and messes stuff up, even if I am paying 2CP, (or maybe even just ONE CP) to do it.



#424
Dominoris

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Does this mean that a Battle Sister punching with her fist gets a -1 AP?

Yes, that is exactly what that means.

 

Let me explain a little more.  Your Battle Sister is not really punching with her fist.  According to the Select Weapon rule on page 230 of the core rule book "If a model is not equipped with any melee weapons, or if it cannot make an attack with any of the melee weapons it is equipped with, then that model makes its attacks using a close combat weapon, which has the following profile:

Weapon ___________Range_Type____S_AP_D

Close combat weapon  Melee  Melee  User  0   1"

 

Just in case someone tries to say you don't have a melee weapon so you don't get the -1 AP.  All models are assumed to have this close combat weapon.



#425
9x19 Parabellum

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Right, it could be a survival knife, a bayonet fixed the front of the bolter, brass knuckles, or, more likely in the case of Sisters, a firm wooden ruler.


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