Feelings towards the new Land Raider Points costs

[Dark Shepherd]

If you can hide a raider turn 1 v doctrines that helps. Flyers much harder to hide. I just wouldnt want anything with a short charge to come out of them

 

Land raiders have the pop smoke strat for a minus one to hit

 

If you have a SW psyker you can give them light cover and minus one to hit. Hitting on 4s v T8 and a 1+ save is not the worst. Might even be worth charging other units with it to mess up your opponents shooting in some circumstances

[Mandragola]

Maybe better armour saves are what's needed. Many years ago (1st or 2nd edition), Terminators were given a 3+ armour save on 2D6. I think this might work for tanks. It would make them far more resilient against attacks with poor ap, the kind of small arms that should almost never hurt a tank, and even significantly tougher against meltas and stuff. A save on a 7+ against a melta would still be very good, but ap would remain a very relevant stat - unlike if you started giving tanks invulnerable saves and the like.

 

I'd also bring back some version of tank shock. I hate that you can block a tank's movement with an infantryman or a swarm. Tanks should have their physicality back and anything that doesn't want to get out of the way, or can't, should be in trouble.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I hate how bad tanks are in combat. We apparently got rid of universal overwatch because rolling loads of dice in the vain hope of 6s to hit was pointless...

[Kenzaburo]

Maybe better armour saves are what's needed. Many years ago (1st or 2nd edition), Terminators were given a 3+ armour save on 2D6. I think this might work for tanks. It would make them far more resilient against attacks with poor ap, the kind of small arms that should almost never hurt a tank, and even significantly tougher against meltas and stuff. A save on a 7+ against a melta would still be very good, but ap would remain a very relevant stat - unlike if you started giving tanks invulnerable saves and the like.

 

I'd also bring back some version of tank shock. I hate that you can block a tank's movement with an infantryman or a swarm. Tanks should have their physicality back and anything that doesn't want to get out of the way, or can't, should be in trouble.

 

It was 2nd ed, when Termis last saved on 2d6. Might work, but overall I've seen a number of good ideas of how to fix tanks. But as it is richt now with GW, I can't see those fixes applied before a 10th edition, that being maybe one of the USPs of 10th. On the other hand, that's just 2 more years waiting, now that editions have these shortened cycles. Which sucks for 9th, since most of us haven't played it much yet due to the pandemic. But that's a different topic. :/ 

[Karhedron]

I hate how bad tanks are in combat.

If you survive to your turn, you can fire all your weapons in combat, subject to -1 to Hit. Of course you don't really want to waste your lascannons on the grots crawling on your hull.....

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I am quite aware, I just find the whole 3 attacks hitting on 6s thing so pointless. Again, like Overwatch used to be, you always do it because one day it might do something, but if a Rhino charges into a group of troops, it doesn't stop just before it hits them and start flailing about, it hits them and squashes them flat, unless they can get out of the way. That's got to be better than a 6+ to hit?

[Mandragola]

I definitely agree that tanks feel absurdly physically weak under the current rules. It shouldn't be possible to shepherd enemy armour around with a thin line of infantry. Something like a Land Raider would actually be pretty useful against big blocks of stuff like plaguebearers or necron warriors, to iron them flat into the ground. Those 3 attacks that hit on 6s are almost insultingly bad, compared to the actual effect you'd have if you slammed a MBT into a crowd of people (something that you should never do, by the way).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

They fight like Montgomery Burns.

[Kallas]

I am quite aware, I just find the whole 3 attacks hitting on 6s thing so pointless. Again, like Overwatch used to be, you always do it because one day it might do something, but if a Rhino charges into a group of troops, it doesn't stop just before it hits them and start flailing about, it hits them and squashes them flat, unless they can get out of the way. That's got to be better than a 6+ to hit?

 

My Space Wolf Land Raider at WS3+ (so 2+ on the charge) with Damage 2 tracks is hilariously awesome in Crusade.

 

God-Emperor I wish it could be that awesome in the main game...

 

Hell, they even made Assault Launchers bloody awful  The Stratagem would be ok in 8th Ed, where you could Overwatch with any unit, but in 9th where you have to pay for it, it just isn't worth it.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Even worse, assault launchers as they were written in 8th would be ok in 9th because land raider crusaders and redeemers aren't so scared if being locked in combat. So charging them would not be the complete waste of time it was in 8th.

[armarnis]

the underlying system of d6 is just at its limits. unless they decide to go back to multiple different dice (imagine a landraider had a 2+ on a d10) we will need more and more deus ex machina rules, despite people can already see through the veil

[Captain Idaho]

Land Raiders wouldn't need new rules, just Toughness 9. That means all that melta would struggle to wound and Lascannons become much more useful. Throw 2 more wounds on them and they're golden.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That spare 20 points is going back into my LRR via pintle-mounted multimelta.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

I think the real question is what to carry inside, but one with 5++ seems to be useful to bring special units to the middle board.

I am not sure a 5++ is that significant on a unit that already has a 2+ save. Up to AP-3, you get no benefit from it. It will save on a 5+ vs lascannon shots either way. Even going up to melta weapons only improves your save from a 6+ to a 5+. Not saying it is worthless but it is only useful against the heaviest of weapons.

 

Melta is going to be AP -5 most of the time so land raiders usually dont get a save.  Getting a 5++ would be a godsend.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tanks should inflict mortal wounds when they charge.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Tanks should inflict mortal wounds when they charge.

Nice idea... would save a lot of pointless dice rolling if big tanks would just do a mortal or two on a 6+.  

[Mandragola]

the underlying system of d6 is just at its limits. unless they decide to go back to multiple different dice (imagine a landraider had a 2+ on a d10) we will need more and more deus ex machina rules, despite people can already see through the veil

This is one of the advantages of using 2D6 for the saves. You don't have to use different dice but you do get to make the tank tougher. AP still matters but it can't give you no save at all.

 

I like that this could, in theory, be done without needing to change any unit's datasheet at all. It would be a step change. I see the attraction of things like increasing toughness but I think that would just be playing along with a gradual overall increase to all stats.

[MegaVolt87]

Or we could just wind back the overall dmg? Things like twin linked really didn't need a shift to double shots for example. Or double shot multi melta's etc. I don't really think GW thought that through, because they haven't accounted for how tough things need to be since the buffed shooting. How are we paying more points for vehicles that are easier to kill? Sure the on paper firepower looks good, but if its deleted in one turn of attention, what's the point? At least the old way, vehicles stuck around for 2-3 turns at a minimum if your opponent got lucky, so they were worth the points then. 

[Ishagu]

Or they drop the price by a significant margin. Problem solved.

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with super cheap vehicles is melta becomes totally obligatory and will increase to compensate with how many vehicles would be filling army lists.

 

Give Land Raiders survivability and they become useful transports and gun platforms again.

[Ishagu]

I'm not so sure, not when armies are becoming more infantry focused.

 

With new Orks, the focus might shift to high volume of fire weapons.

 

I'm not suggesting these units are so cheap they can be spammed. I'm saying they should be aggressively costed.

[Schlitzaf]

Um? What edition didn’t LR Style Units die to Meltas or Suicide Stern?

[MegaVolt87]

Um? What edition didn’t LR Style Units die to Meltas or Suicide Stern?

My jump pack/ bike captin wasn't buffing my 2-3 man attack bike units shooting and I didn't have 4-6 MM shots to do the job from a single unit. Yes it could wreck, but wasn't a certainty, still had a margin of failure back then.

[Ishagu]

 

Um? What edition didn’t LR Style Units die to Meltas or Suicide Stern?

My jump pack/ bike captin wasn't buffing my 2-3 man attack bike units shooting and I didn't have 4-6 MM shots to do the job from a single unit. Yes it could wreck, but wasn't a certainty, still had a margin of failure back then.

Well, in the old days a single guardsman with a melta could 1 shot a Landraider. So there was that

Edited June 3, 2021 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I has thought about this a lot… there were some fundamental changes to the game introduced in eighth edition such as no more Instant Death, 6+ always wounds, etc. Just seems like the developers don’t really care that vehicles generally speaking aren’t nearly as durable now. There’s lots of ways it could be addressed that wouldn’t break the game. Sad really.