Captain Idaho Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Excuse the play on words, but let's discuss what we consider the Ultramarines could use to be competitive (to a greater or lesser degree depending on preference) against the big players on the scene at the moment. Orks - Toughness 5 and most believe will be in large numbers. So we need anti-infantry weapons by the score and/several powerful ones. Heavy Bolters look like they'll be useful in that case. Flamers are good for the auto hits but you need a lot or as a supplement to the rest. I'm thinking Terminators will still fit the bill. They get lots of shots and can melee pretty hard too. Relic Terminators retain the shots and still have lightning claws which would be critical. Bladeguard get S5 which will be much better than relying on Intercessors to do your dirty wetwork. On, Onslaught Gatling Cannons and Twin Assault Cannons are the new staple I imagine. All the while, those Chaplains can grant +1 to wound in shooting or melee too, which could be a game changer. Drukhari - ouch these guys hurt. Sure they're in need of a strong nerf bat to the skull, but in the meantime what can we do? (Anecdote: Aeldari skulls are so soft a nerf bat hits like a wooden one to them) Suppressors, Heavy Bolters and maybe even Stalker Tanks come out well here. Take down those Raiders as best you can and shoot those Cabalists in the grill after. Focus fire is a must. A teleporting Terminator blob with Chaplain for the boosted charge could be good. They can jump down and shoot one target before charging a Raider, potentially spiking multiple units in a turn. Sisters and Ad Mech are the likely new hotness but right now I need to think on them and we don't know for sure what their new builds will look like. In the meantime, any thoughts on solving the problematic opponents out there? XeonDragon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 I honestly think orks and DE won't have too much of a shift in capability in comparison on how they already are and have been. Back when I played loyalists, multi melta's, heavy bolters, plasma guns and plasma cannons were more than sufficient to deal with them. The toolbox has only expanded now. Stock redemptor at 175 points is a steal, 5 man MSU's of intercessors with just a power sword sarge are still capable in their own right. Call me crazy, but I have a theory a repulsor arriving from reserves after turn two would be devastating, turn three on orks and eldar are largely committed to their positions and destinations on the board, more so than other armies. The way to win will be on objectives and catching them out via their positioning, a reactive conter punch strategy. Be prepared to pierce trade, your gut reaction may be to shoot up those nearby wynches for example, but what you should actually do is leave your cover, charge the wynches, re-position and make mince meat of the follow on kabalite warriors/ reaver jetbikes etc. The smaller tables hurt eldar, this forces them closer to you and that's exactly what you want. Remember that scene in watchmen where Rorschach goes "You're Locked In Here With Me" bring that same energy against any eldar and you will do way better with SM. XeonDragon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 Is too early to say what’s needed versus Orks in general besides a decent amount of S5 attacks. Remember geedub said their current codex is the best ever codex but was it really - I don’t think so. Green IG seems more like it to me. One thing I will say is terminators are very good this edition… especially relic terminators… they really mess things up. I’m hoping Ork armies will be more choppy again with the Snagga (Primaris) Orks coming out to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeonDragon Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 If I was cynical, I'd suggest a link between S5 guns on heavy intercessors and the new ork T5 stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ramael Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 I would like to add that HB, while functional, are not the best option for Orks and even DE squads, since assault cannons and onslaught ones do a better job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 2, 2021 Author Share Posted June 2, 2021 Heavy Bolters are good for fighting heavy infantry and plinking wounds off vehicles, whilst still giving out more attacks to be utilised on lighter infantry too. Building a list in 40K isn't just about taking the peak efficient choice for every circumstance as that's just impossible to fit them all in. Rather, in a take all comers environment you take some weapons that supplement others and can be used for their main role. XeonDragon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 It’s all about the synergy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 3, 2021 Author Share Posted June 3, 2021 Been thinking Typhoons might be credible again. Armed with a Heavy Bolter, it's interesting just how useful this unit will be against Marines, light infantry and vehicles alike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 And Snagga Boiz !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyterran Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 I'd say Assault Cannons will be better for fighting Orks, Death Guard Sisters and Dark Eldar, Heavy Bolters are for more every other type of Marine. The only problem is, that off the top of my head, the only reliable source of Assault Cannons is Razorbacks, Dreads, and Storm(blank) planes, none of which are great choices. It will be interesting to see the new point cost of the boy now that they've gotten this increase, much like how Marines got an increase from the extra wound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 9, 2021 Author Share Posted June 9, 2021 Razorbacks are solid choices but live in a very skewed and specific army. Dreads are also solid with Duty Eternal. I'm thinking about Land Speeders more and more. 80pts for a Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon platform ain't too bad. Typhoons are also quite solid but notably more expensive. I want to experiment with them. XeonDragon 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 (edited) ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [102 PL, 2,000pts, 6CP] ++ + Configuration + **Chapter Selection**: Master Artisans, Ultramarines Successor, Whirlwind of Rage Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost + Stratagems + Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + No Force Org Slot + Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm + HQ + Chapter Master with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle [8 PL, 145pts, -1CP]: Adept of the Codex, Chapter Command: Chapter Master, Seal of Oath, Storm of Fire, Stratagem: Exemplar of the Chapter, Warlord Primaris Librarian [6 PL, 120pts, -1CP]: 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Psychic Mastery, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Reliquary of Vengeance Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, 100pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Master of the Forge, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter + Troops + Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades . Incursor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auto Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auto Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword + Elites + Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 160pts]: Twin ironhail autocannon Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 160pts]: Twin ironhail autocannon Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin + Fast Attack + Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Suppressor Sergeant Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Suppressor Sergeant + Dedicated Transport + Land Speeder Storm [3 PL, 55pts] Land Speeder Storm [3 PL, 55pts] ++ Total: [102 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++ How about your thoughts to this list? Edited June 14, 2021 by Tokugawa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Looks like Iron Hands to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruor Vault Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Looks like Iron Hands to me. All the most successful UM lists even back to 8th were dread heavy. ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Ultramarines) [102 PL, 2,000pts, 6CP] ++ + Configuration + **Chapter Selection**: Master Artisans, Ultramarines Successor, Whirlwind of Rage Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) Detachment Command Cost + Stratagems + Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics + No Force Org Slot + Servitors [2 PL, 30pts]: 4x Servo-arm + HQ + Chapter Master with Master-crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle [8 PL, 145pts, -1CP]: Adept of the Codex, Chapter Command: Chapter Master, Seal of Oath, Storm of Fire, Stratagem: Exemplar of the Chapter, Warlord Primaris Librarian [6 PL, 120pts, -1CP]: 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Psychic Mastery, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Reliquary of Vengeance Primaris Techmarine [5 PL, 100pts, -1CP]: Chapter Command: Master of the Forge, Rites of War, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter + Troops + Incursor Squad [5 PL, 105pts] . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades . Incursor Sergeant Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auto Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Auto Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword + Elites + Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 160pts]: Twin ironhail autocannon Invictor Tactical Warsuit [8 PL, 160pts]: Twin ironhail autocannon Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon Redemptor Dreadnought [9 PL, 185pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Icarus Rocket Pod, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling Cannon Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin Relic Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, 150pts, -1CP]: 2x Twin volkite culverin + Fast Attack + Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Suppressor Sergeant Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 100pts] . 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades . Suppressor Sergeant + Dedicated Transport + Land Speeder Storm [3 PL, 55pts] Land Speeder Storm [3 PL, 55pts] ++ Total: [102 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] ++ How about your thoughts to this list? John's core list is pretty solid, but it's clearly intended for the current DE heavy meta. I don't think this list is going to hang around forever once AdMech and Sisters get up to speed. Being a successor doesn't do much for this list. UM have so many methods of granting re-rolls that Master Artisans doesn't make up for the loss of fall back and shoot, nor does the list have enough melee to make Whirlwind of Rage very valuable. It's also a mistake IMO to not take advantage of Tigurius' superior casting and Psychic defense. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 My point is Iron Hands do dreads better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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