What can be done about Reivers?

[Lord_Ikka]

What can be done to Reivers to make them a unique, and more importantly, useful option? While they might have some utility in shutting down an obsec unit, other than that I just can't see a use for them that an Incursor/Infiltrator/Assault Intercessor squad can't do just as well. Am I missing something or do they just need to be put on the shelf until some sort of update for them? 

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I felt like Reivers were a poorly thought out unit really. Assault Intercessors are a Troops choice and fight just as well, if not better because of Astartes Chainswords, whilst their mode of arrival is pretty much pointless as you can utilise other choices for the role much better.

 

Maybe make them an assassin type unit, with better pistols that can target characters and some other benefits that grant them that sort of ability.

 

Morale sucks in 40K so relying on that is pretty limited. Perhaps they can have a more abstract effect, such as incuring penalties to hit on units they target?

[Rik Lightstar]

I think there are a few minor tweaks that would help them without them becoming broken, but it would probably take more than one of the changes to make them competitive.

 

Movement Changes:

• Increase their Move to 8 so they're more mobile, allowing them to interfere with objective holders more and use their Ld Debuff more.

Shooting Changes:

• Give the entire squad access to the Astartes Grenade Launcher that Intercessors have AND allow them ALL to fire grenades in the same turn either as a Unit Ability or a copy of the Grenadiers Stratagem that Imperial Guard get.
• Make their Carbines Assault 3 like the Intercessor Assault Bolt Rifle

Melee Changes:

• Give the Combat Blade a point of AP so it matches with the Atartes Chainsword.

Loadout Changes:

• Include the Grav-Chute AND the Grapnel Launchers in the base points cost, neither are hugely effective but BOTH could be handy.
• Include the Carbine, Pistol AND Combat Blade in the points cost.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take a Power Sword at 5 points.
• Give the Sergeant the option to take the Instigator Bolt Rifle (as per Eliminator Sergeant) along with the Covering Fire rule for 5 points.

If you made all/most of those changes and made them 20ppm they'd probably be a "non-bad" choice for an Elites Slot.

 

Make them a genuinely versatile (not necessarily deadly) harassment and disruption unit.

 

Rik

[lansalt]

IIRC in the Blood of Iax novel, Ultramarine Reivers are portrayed as a stealth commando style unit, sent to specific missions like assasinate an ork warboss or rescue isolated astartes.

Maybe giving them Concealed Positions and ignoring Look Out, Sir of a designated enemy character would be a good start. Same for the Lieutenant.


 

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I’ve been using them in casual games to spite GW and I find it mind-boggling that our stealth-guerilla-terror-elite melee primaris unit really is worse than anything else really. I’d much rather they were more expensive and at least somehow appealing.

 

I’d start with giving them real melee weapons, at least akin to Chainswords, maybe with ‘something’ happening on 6s. 2 shots Carbine wouldn’t be an issue if it was just a complement to melee weapon. I don’t really want them to shoot to well, it’s not Sternguard.

 

Sergeant obviously should have a choice of melee weapons. Even more so than other primaris sarges (honestly it’s amongst chief things that makes me rather reluctant to use primaris, I like making sarges unique with weird wargear as I did in past editions and 30k).

 

8” movement would be great but I doubt they’d implement it. (Maybe 7” for all Phobos&Scouts?)

 

Considering they’re loyalist Night Lords really, maybe let’s snatch some stratagem of theirs?. Something like 'From the Night' could be +1-2” inches after deploying/charging from cover and +1 to hit or wound for example would help with that supposedly ‘unexpected savage assault’. A clone of 'Prey on the Weak' could be great with +1 to hit against lower Ld enemies. Maybe weaken it a bit and just implement it in their profile to represent their prowess against less-disciplined squads?

[dice4thedicegod]

Even just giving them “Concealed positions” would be both fluffy and seriously help.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Another vote for Concealed Positions (as a start) to fix Reivers. And BOTH Phobos-armored Lieutenants should get it as well.

 

It just comes off like GW has kept Concealed Positions from them either to differentiate them from the rest of the Phobos line, which is wrongheaded, or because they have access to grav-chutes, which don't quite do the same thing (and in the case of the "Reiver" Lieutenant, he can't use a grav-chute anyway).

 

From a narrative standpoint, wouldn't a squad of Reivers popping up out of the jungle all around you be a lot more terrifying than having them all come gliding down perfectly exposed in the midday sun?

 

I mean, these guys are ELITES. How does it make sense that they're the one Phobos squad who's apparently FORGOTTEN how to hide?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Mandragola]

They clearly need concealed positions. I think the main reason they don't have it might be because it would render both the upgrades they can take worthless.

 

Right now those upgrades are worthless because the unit can't actually do anything when it arrives. Unfortunately the game designers are kind of stuffed here by the guys who designed the minis and write the policy for the Primaris. The designers created a unit armed only with pistols and knives. The policy guys decreed that units can only be equipped with whatever comes in their box - as if we're all running one-box armies somehow. The designers have tried to make the most of the situation by giving them fancy pistols and grenades, but there's only so much you can do.

 

One option would be to add in some kind of rules to represent the Reivers getting up to no good before the battle, which is their real job after all. Some people might remember the old Alaitoc Ranger Disruption table, where you rolled a dice for each squad to see what kind of mischief they got up to. It would be things like pinning enemy units at the start of the game or putting them in reserve. Maybe you could just do an across the board -1LD debuff on the enemy army, representing that everyone's on edge due to these guys sneaking around and getting up to no good.

 

I do find the Reiver Lieutenant vaguely interesting. He does the core job of a LT by handing out rerolls, plus he can frighten people, throw flashbangs and turn off obsec. Overall that's not a bad unit, in the right situation. He's better for the supplements that have some sort of knife relic. Anyway, he's not what this thread is about, so apologies for bringing him up.

[lansalt]

I've been reading again Blood of Iax, and Ultramarine Reivers are portrayed basically as space marine ninjas with a skull mask. Obligatory read to anybody who wants to understand their lore (as opposed to the shallow codex descriptions). They are more SM assasins that Night Lords copycats (or maybe what NL where supposed to be before Curze...).

I'd say that they should be first a close range anti-character unit (chosen at the start of the game?), just like the SW Hounds of Morkai are anti-psyker (+1 to hit, +1 wound, +1 damage). A melee equivalent of Eliminators.

Besides Concealed Positions, maybe also a bonus to perform specific actions or a stratagem to reflect that.

 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I think they should give them something similar to what the space wolf variant has. Basically they get +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and ignore LoS* if they're targeting a psyker. Change that to characters, and don't give them the extra psychic defenses to keep Hounds of Morkai unique. The hounds wouldn't gain the bonuses against non-pysker units to make it more of a side grade like it should be.

The +1 damage might be a bit much but they don't have a lot of shots or ap. So I think it's worth a shot.

 

edit: *Should have made it clear I meant look out sir not line of sight.  

Edited June 9, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Blindhamster]

concealed positions
improve their reiver blades somehow (better AP, better strength, poisoned or something)
improve their movement by 1
give them hit and run (i know as a rule it doesn't exist, but the ability to move out of one combat and charge into another and still shoot would be nice)
give them a stratagem that lets them designate an enemy unit/character, give them full (hit AND wound) against that thing
 

[Ishagu]

I had this idea, because in the lore they are super stealthy.

 

First of all the Carbine should be Assault 3 and the Knives Ap-1

 

But, the juicy rule I imagined is something like a permanent cloud of flies. Basically the unit cannot be the target of a shooting attack unless it's the closes unit to whatever is declaring the attack.

 

Basically they are stealthy.

[dice4thedicegod]

Maybe add a strat to let them force the closest enemy to take an additional morale check (maybe 2d6 vs ld)? Give their morale debuff something to do…

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I was thinking about this, and one thing I wouldn't mind was if they added another sprue to the kit. Throw in some lightning claws and a special weapon. Its just really hard to come up for ideals for the unit with how basic their equipment is.

 

Another option would be to make a "phobos" upgrade sprue with a helix gauntlet, some special weapons for sergeants, and throw in an option or two for the reivers. They could add some extra heads and/or shoulder pads.

 

 
 

[Djangomatic82]

 

But, the juicy rule I imagined is something like a permanent cloud of flies. Basically the unit cannot be the target of a shooting attack unless it's the closes unit to whatever is declaring the attack.

 

Basically they are stealthy.

I like this, but being completely untargetable might be too much for a minor unit. Maybe something like attacks >12" away, or when not the closest  when declaring the attack, has a BS characteristic of 6+ would be more appropriate.

Additionally, giving them option to use the action interrupt, smoke screen, gene-wrought might and phobos redeploy strats as once per game abilities, with subsequent uses paying the normal CP cost, would be a unique way of depicting them as the elite special forces commandos they were sold to us as.

[Ishagu]

I think it's fine, especially as the damage output of the unit is so low.

 

They can be functional stealth specialists. Alternatively your idea to have units only able to hit them on a 6 also works.

 

Basically they need a unique hook, and I think this is would be a good one.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

I don't know the fluff for Reivers, only what wikis and codex tell me but I'd say we have other Phobos units that look more stealthy than Reivers, like Eliminators. Those units are supposed to remain in cover during whole battle, Reivers not so much - their modus operandi is shocking violence after all.

 

In my opinion the main problem is not the lack of stealth - it's the horrible melee capabilities. Fix this first. 

[Lord_Ikka]

The new Gaunt's Ghosts unit now has "untargetable beyond 18" range as well as a -1 to hit, and a +1 armor save in cover due to their Tanith camo cloaks, so the idea of just getting the untargetable part being too much doesn't hold up when you look at the Ghost's rules. Granted, they're a single special squad, but the array of special abilities in just their cloaks are kind of crazy.

 

In Godblight, the Reivers go toe to toe with some Death Guard, attacking by surprise of course, and manage to take out the DG fairly well- so a bump to their sealth and melee seems to be in order. Concealed positions and a melee increase would get them some kind of utility- front range melee unit designed to tie up the enemy advance while the rest of the SM come into range?

[Blindhamster]

I think GW should actually avoid making carbines identical to the auto bolt rifles.
Maybe the carbines should be assault 2 AP -1 Range 24. Makes them an interesting mix of the auto bolt rifle and bolt rifle essentially.

The knives just being +1 attack and AP -1 is also something I'd avoid, give them something to differentiate from astartes chainswords, they could have innate +1 to wound, or they could get extra hits on 6s or they could have any number of other things to make them stand out.

[Ishagu]

Alternatively the carbine could be super accurate, with a +1 modifier to hit.

[Subtleknife]

I would change the following:

+1 attack each base.

Carbine: Assault 2, ap-1 exploding 6s.

Knives: ap-1 exploding 6s.

-1 to hit if outside 12 inches.

Terror troops -2 leadership and enemies are unable to pull out of combat.

 

I think that would make them sufficiently usable.

 

I would also give them a strat that allows them into the shooting phase to cancel overwatch of a unit within 12 inches for 2cp.

 

I would also give them a 1cp strat that gives them obsec for a turn.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Subtleknife

[lansalt]

Bolt carbines and the standard bolt gun (they are really the same weapon) should be Assault 2  S4 AP-1 D1 24" in the hands of PA units (This would help base marines feel more like they should). IMHO all bolt weapons should be AP-1 minimum.

Keep knives as they are, but give Reivers anti-character bonuses discussed above.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Anti-character buffs without changing knives would look just ridiculous on Reivers, they are probably the worst melee units we get (maybe barring Scouts with ccw).

 

Even assault squads deal on the charge more wounds to marines or guardsmen while costing the same. And they are hardly a compelling choice so the bar is set rather low. And Reivers "claim" to be elite...

 

IMO, better CCW + optional wargear on sarge (a single Claw? a sword?) is crucial to making them even remotely more dangerous than any regular marine squad.

[Captain Idaho]

I think what they should be is something Marines can't otherwise get - we got attacks with special weapons and horde killers.

 

Just been thinking Reivers could generate Mortal Wounds! They can perhaps cause a Mortal Wound on hits of a 6 then the attack sequence ends.

 

This could represent their killer instincts and assassination style etc. Give them an extra attack and they could become quite dangerous.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

It's not enough to set them apart, imo.

 

Think about the best units in the game. They all have a clear, obvious and predetermined function.

 

They need a unique rule beyond dealing damage.