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Fixing Veteran Intercessors


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#1
Blindhamster

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when they could use the intercessor bolt rifle strats they were pretty great. Without access to those they aren't so good.

IMO they really should be able to mix bolt rifles and astartes chainswords from model to model and be able to use both strats. As they are, they're sub-par.

I love the models I did for them though :D


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#2
Karhedron

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Loss of Troops + ObjSec + Price increase puts me off them. +1A is too little gain for the abilities they lose and they end up contesting a valuable Elite slot. I can't really see a role for these guys that can't be done better by our Troops units or proper Elites.


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#3
Blindhamster

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Loss of Troops + ObjSec + Price increase puts me off them. +1A is too little gain for the abilities they lose and they end up contesting a valuable Elite slot. I can't really see a role for these guys that can't be done better by our Troops units or proper Elites.

yeah its a shame they became a proper slot to be honest, they simply don't have the rules or options to make them worth a slot. Where as a command point upgrade, they were usually worth having a single squad of.

It's a bit annoying as it wouldn't even be all that hard to fix them:

  • allow mixing of ranged and melee intercessor loadouts
  • allow a couple models in addition to sergeant to take a melee weapon upgrade AND still allow the inclusion of grenade launchers
  • allow the use of intercessor (both kinds) strats.

i.e. make it so they have all the options you could make if you had a box of both kinds of intercessors plus a relevant chapter upgrade sprue.


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#4
Karhedron

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Heck, leaving them in the Troop slot would be enough to make me consider them. The ability to hide a TH on a 4A model (who effectively gets 6A from T3 onwards) could be pretty useful.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#5
Jolemai

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Split from here as it warrants it's own thread


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#6
Captain Idaho

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I think Veteran Intercessors (along with Sternguard) need help from a Strategum that allows them to get +1 to wound against a target or +1 Damage, for 1 CP. Essentially makes tgen more flexible and useful.
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#7
Black Blow Fly

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I use a squad in my Iron Hands army and am happy with them as is.


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#8
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Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'?

I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains.
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#9
Ishagu

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They should be Troops, or should keep Obsec.

Should be able to mix weapons from Regular and Assault Intercessors.

Edited by Ishagu, 15 June 2021 - 11:57 PM.

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#10
Ishagu

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Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'?

I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains.


I'd rather see new dedicated units like the Bladeguard.

In my opinion the old Veteran unit types are a mess and date back to the game being a smaller, skirmish style.

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#11
CCE1981

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The best solution I think is to have Veterans be an upgrade to a unit. “For 2 points per model increase a <Primaris Troops Choice> to a Veteran <Primaris Troops Choice> increasing it’s attacks and leadership characteristic by 1. The max number of all Veteran <Primaris Troops Choice> units is 1, unless you are playing a Strike Force Battle (In which case, you can upgrade 2, or Onslaught Battle ( in which case, you can upgrade three units).”

This would limit the number of Veterans you can have while also having them as Troops.

Edited by CCE1981, 16 June 2021 - 12:02 AM.

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#12
Inquisitor_Lensoven

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Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'?

I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains.

I'd rather see new dedicated units like the Bladeguard.

In my opinion the old Veteran unit types are a mess and date back to the game being a smaller, skirmish style.
im tired of the hyper focused primaris units which the requires 3 datasheets when a rough equivalent to all 3 can be made from 1 firstborn datasheet.
For example, devastators, can fill the role of hellblasters or eradicators no problem and even roughly the role of heavy Intercessors. Sternguard can likewise fill the roles of several different primaris units.

Primaris 'specialization' is why we have like 100 datasheets in our codex
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#13
Black Blow Fly

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Deathwatch is the way to go if you want to mix it up.
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#14
Ishagu

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Can we redirect this discussion to simply 'fixing primaris veterans'?

I'd like to see gravis veterans that can be set up as aggressor veterans, heavy interecessor veterans, or veterans mix and match between shooting and melee a bit, sort like mini-gravis captains.

I'd rather see new dedicated units like the Bladeguard.

In my opinion the old Veteran unit types are a mess and date back to the game being a smaller, skirmish style.
im tired of the hyper focused primaris units which the requires 3 datasheets when a rough equivalent to all 3 can be made from 1 firstborn datasheet.
For example, devastators, can fill the role of hellblasters or eradicators no problem and even roughly the role of heavy Intercessors. Sternguard can likewise fill the roles of several different primaris units.

Primaris 'specialization' is why we have like 100 datasheets in our codex

All the best factions have traditionally used specialised units.

The dedicated Primaris units are typically superior to the generalist units in the classic range.

And the kits look more varied and unique, and require less conversions or sourcing of bits etc.

Edited by Ishagu, 16 June 2021 - 07:03 AM.

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#15
Halandaar

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I don't have any objection to a "Veteran" unit being an Elites slot choice as opposed to Troops, that makes sense to me. The problem is they've not really been given anything that makes them actually feel "Elite", or even anything that just compensates them for the lack of ObSec and access to the Stratagems which affect non-Veteran Intercessors.

 

If GW wanted them just to be incrementally better versions of the base unit they should either have stuck with the previous model of making them a stratagem upgrade, or use the Drukhari model where you gate access to them behind something else and just pay a slight points increase to improve their rules a bit.

 

If however the intent was them to be a proper Elite unit then they need a considerable rework, including abilities or wargear that allow them to be played differently to regular Intercessors.


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#16
Rhavien

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I find them very useless as they are. As many have said before they would need access to better gear and strats to be worth considering. If they are veterans they surely would have had the time to specialize in their weapons of choice. I mean like firstborn veterans did all the time even before Guillaume expanded the codex Astartes...

#17
Ishagu

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I've thought about it some more, and a solution would be to give them a better gun.

All of them should have Master Crafted bolt Rifles, and a slightly higher cost. Or something to that effect.
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#18
Rik Lightstar

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For me, all flavours of Veterans be they Firstborn or Primaris would be perfectly well served by rule that let them benefit from all 3 Doctrines all the time. Maybe some of the units would need a slight bump in points to accommodate this, most likely Vanguard Vets would be the biggest beneficiaries (but they're probably the best Veteran unit anyway).

 

From a fluff perspective it would represent the huge amount of experience these units are meant to have, along with the fact that they're usually deployed as an auxiliary unit to a Strike Force from one of the other Companies. They're expected to be wherever they're needed.

 

Also open up the Stratagem "Fury of the First" to any unit of "Veterans".

 

Rik


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#19
Halandaar

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I've thought about it some more, and a solution would be to give them a better gun.

All of them should have Master Crafted bolt Rifles, and a slightly higher cost. Or something to that effect.

 

Oh yay, yet another discrete boltgun profile that appears nowhere else in the Codex down.gif

 

Why not something actually interesting that represents their decades (maybe even centuries) of battlefield experience? Literally any chump can shoot a better gun.

 

For me, all flavours of Veterans be they Firstborn or Primaris would be perfectly well served by rule that let them benefit from all 3 Doctrines all the time. Maybe some of the units would need a slight bump in points to accommodate this, most likely Vanguard Vets would be the biggest beneficiaries (but they're probably the best Veteran unit anyway).

 

From a fluff perspective it would represent the huge amount of experience these units are meant to have, along with the fact that they're usually deployed as an auxiliary unit to a Strike Force from one of the other Companies. They're expected to be wherever they're needed.

 

Also open up the Stratagem "Fury of the First" to any unit of "Veterans".

 

This is way more like what I was thinking. Something that actually sets them apart from their non-Veteran comrades.


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#20
Blindhamster

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have to admit, counting as being in all three doctrines all the time WOULD be a good way to show veterans experience AND ability to adapt to the situation better than their brethren.


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#21
Rik Lightstar

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have to admit, counting as being in all three doctrines all the time WOULD be a good way to show veterans experience AND ability to adapt to the situation better than their brethren.

 

Yeah, changes to either the stats or weapon profiles end up being a slippery slope of "Well if a Veteran is THAT good then a Lieutenant needs to be better" which knocks on to Captains and every other HQ Choice.

 

This way they'd not be doing anything that a normal Marine can't, they're just more able to act independently of the Command Structure. Which is exactly what a Veteran Squad should really be about.

 

 

My other thought was some kind of aura ability to represent that a lot of the First Company are the "future leaders" of the Chapter so a mini buff effect could be good too. But I couldn't think of anything minor enough to not be broken yet good enough to be worth having.

 

Rik


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#22
Captain Idaho

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I like the idea of them counting all 3 Doctrines, or being able to pick at the beginning of a turn.

Masterful Marksmanship coming back with a solid change would help Veterans - perhaps they get +1 shot on their bolt weapons, can choose +1 wound, can choose +1 damage etc. Make them flexible like the old days with their special ammo.
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#23
Jorin Helm-splitter

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If it were up to me, I'd just make veteran Intercessors an upgrade that works like the hq upgrades. So you spend more points on squad, raise the power level, and give the unit the extra stats. Maybe have a restriction like for every 2 troop units you can upgrade 1 squad so it still feels rare/unique.

#24
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I think, bs 2+, a better gun ( maybe something like assault 2 ap-1 d1), a stratagem +1 to wound and the possibility to give everybody a special CQC weapon should give them the needed boost.

Nowadays they are a meaningless expensive intercessor whiteout obsec.

#25
Dracos

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As much as I'd like them to be ObSec and master-crafted, I agree that does start a slippery slope. I do like the ability to mix and match Assault and Standard Intercessors with the ability to choose their Doctrine and use the associated Stratagems.

 

I'm still not sure I'd choose them over my Bladeguard or Aggressors but I'd definitely do some trial runs to see if the versatility was equally useful as the other choices.

 

My feeling is it would need another "nudge" to make them really worth it.


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