Lucius forge-world and armour saves

[Rogue]

Hello

 

The AdMech Lucius dogma gives all affected models a +1 save against Damage 1 weapons. Does this also apply to invulnerable saves?

 

For example: a rust-stalker has a 4+/5++ save. It takes a rending hit from an acolyte's rending claw, for 1 damage at -4AP. The regular save becomes 3+ because of the dogma, but then 7+ because of the AP, so we switch to the invulnerable save. Does this become 4++ because of the dogma, or does it stick at 5++?

 

In part, this comes from the light cover rule, which specifies that the +1 save granted by light cover doesn't apply to invulnerable saves. Annoyingly, this simultaneously sets the precedent that save bonuses might not apply to invulnerable saves, whilst also implying that they might unless specifically ruled otherwise.

 

Can anyone clear this up for me?

 

Thanks

[Lord Raven 19]

There was a rule in 8th that invulnerable saves are notadified unless specifically stated to be modified, I think. Not sure if it carried over to 9th though.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

9th edition just says invulnerable saves aren't modified by a weapon's Armour Penetration, but doesn't talk about modifiers more generally (Invulnerable Saves, in the square box on page 72 of the Mission Pack, not sure what page of the hardcover rules as those are at home).

 

So, I imagine it boils down to the exact wording of the AM rule - can someone quote the relevant wording?

[Oxydo]

Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model with this dogma, add 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.

So no, it doesn't help invul saves. Compare it with Custodes' Emperor's Chosen which specifically calls that it improves the invul save.

 

This unit’s invulnerable save is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+).

[Rogue]

Except it says 'any armour saving throw'. Wouldn't an invulnerable save still count as 'any armour saving throw'?

 

With the Custodes one, does it only affect invulnerable saves, or does it affect regular saves too?

[Oxydo]

While both invul saves and armour saves are saving throws they are not the same. For instance, light cover adds 1 to saving throws and specifies that it doesn't affect invuls because otherwise it would have. But something that specifies armour save/Sv would only affect the armour save.
Note how Sv is part of a unit's characteristics while invuls are always abilties/gear.

 

As for the custodes ability, it only affects the invul and have no bearing on the armour save.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Oxydo

[Rogue]

That's a helpful distinction. I'd not really picked up on the difference in language before.

 

So the Lucius dogma affects the armour save, because it specifies 'armour save' in the rule, but not the invulnerable save, because that's a different (but similar) thing.

 

Thanks, everyone.

[jarms48]

No, if you read the specific wording of the rule again it says armour save. Not save.