Traitor primarchs? The weakest primarchs?

[Ishagu]

I felt my response was pretty fair, I have no problem in pointing out a glaring weakness in a loyalist, just as I did with the Lion.

 

Mortarion has been shown to be a petty, prideful and hypocritical character. He spent much of the last 10 millennia searching the warp for the soul of the alien who raised him on Barbarus, just so he can imprison and torture it. Even after everything that happened he couldn't let go of the past.

 

He also flees from battle unless the odds are explicitly stacked in his favour, and is unable to wage war on Ultramar unless he can call on help from the warp. Not to mention that some of his own subordinates, Typhus included, have no respect for him.

 

I don't hate the character, in fact I think the setting needs villains like him. He is still formidable and a major threat, but he's not the finest example of a Primarch.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Ishagu

[Morovir]

Fulgrim, Perturabo and Horus were amongst the best of the Primarch when it comes to their capabilities as generals and warriors.

 

Others like Lorgar, Mortarion and Angron were definitely amongst the least effective in the theatre of war and leadership.

 

Have you read literally anything about Mortarion other than the Dark Imperium Trilogy?

 

Many sources describe the fanatical level of devotion that the Barbaran members of the Death Guard have for him. The Lords of Silence emphasises how Typhus and his followers are very much in the minority of the Legion even in the 41st millennium. Not only this, but in The Path of Heaven he even manages to garner respect from Eidolon of all people, showing his leadership qualities.

 

Betrayal states that Mortarion 'proved himself within the space of a very few battles to be one of the finest field commanders the Great Crusade had ever seen' and that he had 'an uncanny sense for the tide of a battle's turning', with the Death Guard described more than any of the other legions as 'but one entity with a single purpose and one body'.

 

Ironically, it also states that 'Many of his contemporaries, and indeed commentators, since have underestimated Mortarion's razor-sharp intelligence and flare for organisational simplicity and efficiency'.

 

Is he a petty, prideful and hypocritical individual? Indisputably. But that doesn't detract from his other, more positive, qualities.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I'll admit Mortarion retreated from ultramar, but sources I'm reading say it's because of the war for the scourge stars (the planets nurgle took from ultramar). The other daemons got jealous and attacked. So nurgle pulled back his forces.

 

And how is that a victory for the ultramarines? If I live in country A (ultramarines), and country B (Nurgle) invades me and TAKES some of my land, and then country C (other daemons) invades the recently taken land so country B retreats to that land to take it back, how is that a victory for country A? They have less land. Country B still gained territory. Seems like country B won that scenario. He had less resources while attacking the largest space marine system.

 

Mortarion ran from the khan the first time, but khan ran from him in the rematch.

 

Mortarion is super hypocritical, I'll give you that. He turned into exactly what he dispised, much like curze. I find it to be his most tragic trait.

 

How is he any more petty or prideful than the other primarchs though? The primarchs are borderline demi gods. They've each been petty towards others and prideful towards themselves. Typhus has no respect for anyone besides nurgle, himself and abbadon when it suits him. He screwed over his entire legion and had them in agony and pooped on the imperium. That's more of Typhus being a turd than mortarion not being worthy of respect.

 

And the emperor killed the warlord that raised Mortarion. It was the last thing he saw before he passed out.

 

Your view is far from fair, and quite frankly wrong.

[Waking Dreamer]

Guilliman himself still respects Mortarion as a more than capable general and tactical commander, even after assessing and seeing his flaws so there is that.

[Ishagu]

Of course he does - aside from Angron, all of the Primarchs are generals of a calibre far beyond most mortals.

 

But they are not all equal, and Mortarion is not one of the best.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Of course he does - aside from Angron, all of the Primarchs are generals of a calibre far beyond most mortals.

 

But they are not all equal, and Mortarion is not one of the best.

Nobody is saying Mortarion is the best, we are just saying your biased skewed view on him is wrong, that's all.

[Waking Dreamer]

To be fair, as its already been mentioned - depending on where the story NEEDS to go...one Primarch will gain victories of another Primarch no matter what. Whether that be in a direct duel or a campaign's worth of strategic maneuvering.

 

For example, Guilliman with all his resources would have still lost to Mortarion multiple times if it wasn't for the Imperial Cult - disobeying his direct orders! Guilliman hates the Imperial Cult / Adeptus Ministorum - and for his arse/plans to be saved by them, he can't help but be besides himself...

[Ishagu]

To be fair, as its already been mentioned - depending on where the story NEEDS to go...one Primarch will gain victories of another Primarch no matter what. Whether that be in a direct duel or a campaign's worth of strategic maneuvering.

 

For example, Guilliman with all his resources would have still lost to Mortarion multiple times if it wasn't for the Imperial Cult - disobeying his direct orders! Guilliman hates the Imperial Cult / Adeptus Ministorum - and for his arse/plans to be saved by them, he can't help but be besides himself...

That is one of Guilliman's greatest weaknesses.

 

His shortcoming is that he tries to apply cold logic, truth and facts to everything - but the forces he's up against, and those that aid him, don't play by that rulebook.

 

All of the Primarchs are limited in some way, including the 13th.

[MegaVolt87]

 

To be fair, as its already been mentioned - depending on where the story NEEDS to go...one Primarch will gain victories of another Primarch no matter what. Whether that be in a direct duel or a campaign's worth of strategic maneuvering.

 

For example, Guilliman with all his resources would have still lost to Mortarion multiple times if it wasn't for the Imperial Cult - disobeying his direct orders! Guilliman hates the Imperial Cult / Adeptus Ministorum - and for his arse/plans to be saved by them, he can't help but be besides himself...

That is one of Guilliman's greatest weaknesses.

 

His shortcoming is that he tries to apply cold logic, truth and facts to everything - but the forces he's up against, and those that aid him, don't play by that rulebook.

 

All of the Primarchs are limited in some way, including the 13th.

 

 

Actually, Bobby and Dorn are similar in that they acknowledge "the crazy" but dismiss it as irrelevant because cold logic, truth and facts are superior. If their line of thinking fails, its not that they were wrong, they need another superior plan/stratagem etc because the first was a mere miscalculation. Thats actually a benefit as much as a flaw. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

I was holding off for a reprint of Godblight, but could not wait any longer and read a digital copy. Without giving any spoilers, it does a pretty good job of showing a traitor primarch's success in the "theater of war" and "martial prowess" over a loyalist one. I want the other traitor primarchs to come out and make some splashes now!

[USNCenturion]

I can guarantee if a writer wanted to tell a story in which Lorgar needed to beat Sanguinius in combat, Lorgar would beat Sanguinius in combat. Furthermore, are we comparing who can lift the heaviest car? The strongest man in the world may not also be the best fighter in the world, and any great fighter can be killed by a surprise bottle to the back of his head when he’s not looking.

 

These characters aren’t real and have no real quantifiable way to tell who the “strongest” or “weakest” is. They are as “strong” and as accomplished fighters as they need to be to fill and drive whatever narrative the author needs to have driven.

 

The topic seems to be trying to start an argument.

[Are Verlo]

Well since I consider anything published after volume 1 and 2 Realm of Chaos to be fanfiction I’d say most of you are making this up ;-p

[acrowsperch]

Curze is the strongest because he's BATMAN and the weakest one is whichever the authors or forum posters deem to be the worst.

 

 

 

 

 

Though Ferrus Manus did get beheaded.

 

Oh, poor Manus! I used to know him. Fulgrim--a very funny guy, and with an excellent imagination. He carried me on his back a thousand times, and now--how terrible--this is him.       -Horus, when presented with the skull of Ferrus Manus

[battle captain corpus]

Okay this is clearly just running in circles & will bear no fruit let’s face it.

 

- unhooks Crozius-

 

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