Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Deredeo Mathhammer Request


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

#1
Indefragable

Indefragable

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 4,728 posts
  • Location:Boston, MA, US of A
  • Faction: Blood Angels

Wondering what ye Frater who are better at math than I am would say about the various load outs for a Deredeo. 

 

After re-reading all the weapon profiles, the idea of one with Arachnus Lascannon + Boreas missiles piqued my interest....but as is often the case, I'm betting the auto cannon + Ailos combo is the best mathematical choice. 

 

As a primarily BA player, I'm always on the lookout for "heavy" shooting to open Spartans and the like, hency why things like S10 AP2 Exoshock standout to me more than things like the S8 AP4 Heavy 4 Sunder of the autocannons, but I'm guessing the # of shots and the re-rolls to Armor Pen are generally > than what the lascannon can do. 


  • XeonDragon likes this

Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

gallery_93095_13980_27776.jpgETL_VI_Banner_Primus_Interpares_Astartes


#2
SkimaskMohawk

SkimaskMohawk

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,801 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
  • Faction: Raven Guard and VIII Legion
It totally depends on what you want it to shoot at. Like specifically, because flare shields and armour and potential jink are all variables.

For a spartan, you just can't hurt it with the autos in the front so in that sense, the las is better. But it only has a 28% chance to do one pen and a 14% to do two via exoshock; even with both pens it's a 9.5% of explodes. So it's terrible if you're bringing it to deal with Spartans.

#3
Brofist

Brofist

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,351 posts
  • Location:Seattle
  • Faction: 13th Grand Battalion
I remember running the math when the Arachnus came out. The TLDR was that it's only real niche is against heavily armored fliers. Outside of that it just costs too much for pretty average anti-tank. At best think of it as a supplement to your anti tank, rather than a dedicated heavy tank hunter.
sig.jpg

#powerfisted30k, #tacticalstrikeplus
Download Tactical Strike Plus
Check out my Corpse Crow militia and Iron Warriors: Army Thread
My Painting Blog: With Tutorials, WIPs, and Bad Puns

#4
Blitzjager

Blitzjager

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 38 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Faction: XIII Legion

Where it might make sense is if your local meta is full of 2 Anvillus plus  Kharybdis death star assualt turn 1-2.   That way you might be able to get them on the ground and hit them with strong templates/shooting.



#5
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

Where it might make sense is if your local meta is full of 2 Anvillus plus  Kharybdis death star assualt turn 1-2.   That way you might be able to get them on the ground and hit them with strong templates/shooting.

I wouldn't stop my opponent to drop whatever is in that Pods turn one.

A lot easier to kill that way. ;)


Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#6
Blitzjager

Blitzjager

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 38 posts
  • Location:USA
  • Faction: XIII Legion

Normal Drop pods yes, the Kharybdis, and Anvillus are Assault Vehicles, and do not require their troops to disembark.  They are treated like flyers in hover mode and "will" get a jink save.



#7
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

Normal Drop pods yes, the Kharybdis, and Anvillus are Assault Vehicles, and do not require their troops to disembark. They are treated like flyers in hover mode and "will" get a jink save.

Sure, but two pods don't make me sweat to be honest
Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#8
XeonDragon

XeonDragon

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 283 posts

When I do mathhammer, I judge a unit on the basis of its average damage per point it costs output against a "basket" of likely targets (a bit like economists use a selected "basket" of certain goods to measure inflation).* I use GEQ, MEQ, GravEQ (gavis equivalent), TEQ< VEQ and KEQ. The 8th edition mathhammer wesbite and the app are just fine (app is better). I enter it into a spreadsheet and voila, you get your answer. 

 

I'll see if I can dig it up, but I think I compared various load-outs of Deredeo against the contemptor dreadnought a while back, and I think it came out OK (despite not being core) on that comparison, on that basket of targets.  

 

* Yes, target selection is a critical skill in 40k. You don't shoot pistols at knights. You don't send thunder hammers against guards etc.

 

That said, whilst it is unlikely that you would ever shoot a Arachnus heavy lascannon battery at a marine, or a las-cannon tactical marine at a lone genestealer, stranger things can happen. That marine or genestealer might be holding an objective, nothing else is in range and if it dies you deny your opponent VP etc.

 

This is why I do mathhammer on a 'basket' basis. If you think you will never, ever shoot a Deredeo or Contempor at squishy targets, change the basket, or weight them less. Take out the GEQ and MEQ, maybe even the TEQ. Maybe throw in a dreadnought and dark raider equivalent stat-lines. Either way, in my experience the basket approach to mathhammer gives you a great feel for what the unit can do in a range of situations, rather than just against a handful of very specific profiles which you may or may not come up against regularly (or, even if you do, might not be targatble for a turn or two). 


Edited by XeonDragon, 14 October 2021 - 01:38 AM.


#9
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

When I do mathhammer, I judge a unit on the basis of its average damage per point it costs output against a "basket" of likely targets (a bit like economists use a selected "basket" of certain goods to measure inflation).* I use GEQ, MEQ, GravEQ (gavis equivalent), TEQ< VEQ and KEQ. The 8th edition mathhammer wesbite and the app are just fine (app is better). I enter it into a spreadsheet and voila, you get your answer. 

 

I'll see if I can dig it up, but I think I compared various load-outs of Deredeo against the contemptor dreadnought a while back, and I think it came out OK (despite not being core) on that comparison, on that basket of targets.  

 

* Yes, target selection is a critical skill in 40k. You don't shoot pistols at knights. You don't send thunder hammers against guards etc.

 

That said, whilst it is unlikely that you would ever shoot a Arachnus heavy lascannon battery at a marine, or a las-cannon tactical marine at a lone genestealer, stranger things can happen. That marine or genestealer might be holding an objective, nothing else is in range and if it dies you deny your opponent VP etc.

 

This is why I do mathhammer on a 'basket' basis. If you think you will never, ever shoot a Deredeo or Contempor at squishy targets, change the basket, or weight them less. Take out the GEQ and MEQ, maybe even the TEQ. Maybe throw in a dreadnought and dark raider equivalent stat-lines. Either way, in my experience the basket approach to mathhammer gives you a great feel for what the unit can do in a range of situations, rather than just against a handful of very specific profiles which you may or may not come up against regularly (or, even if you do, might not be targatble for a turn or two). 

It's safe to assume, that a dedicated anti tank dreadnought like the Arachnus is best used against vehicles.

But if you want to get most bang out of your buck you take the autocannon deredeo.

He can't kill a Spartan but neither can the Arachnus so that is that.


Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#10
MichaelCarmine

MichaelCarmine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Karlsruhe, Germany

 

When I do mathhammer, I judge a unit on the basis of its average damage per point it costs output against a "basket" of likely targets (a bit like economists use a selected "basket" of certain goods to measure inflation).* I use GEQ, MEQ, GravEQ (gavis equivalent), TEQ< VEQ and KEQ. The 8th edition mathhammer wesbite and the app are just fine (app is better). I enter it into a spreadsheet and voila, you get your answer. 

 

I'll see if I can dig it up, but I think I compared various load-outs of Deredeo against the contemptor dreadnought a while back, and I think it came out OK (despite not being core) on that comparison, on that basket of targets.  

 

* Yes, target selection is a critical skill in 40k. You don't shoot pistols at knights. You don't send thunder hammers against guards etc.

 

That said, whilst it is unlikely that you would ever shoot a Arachnus heavy lascannon battery at a marine, or a las-cannon tactical marine at a lone genestealer, stranger things can happen. That marine or genestealer might be holding an objective, nothing else is in range and if it dies you deny your opponent VP etc.

 

This is why I do mathhammer on a 'basket' basis. If you think you will never, ever shoot a Deredeo or Contempor at squishy targets, change the basket, or weight them less. Take out the GEQ and MEQ, maybe even the TEQ. Maybe throw in a dreadnought and dark raider equivalent stat-lines. Either way, in my experience the basket approach to mathhammer gives you a great feel for what the unit can do in a range of situations, rather than just against a handful of very specific profiles which you may or may not come up against regularly (or, even if you do, might not be targatble for a turn or two). 

It's safe to assume, that a dedicated anti tank dreadnought like the Arachnus is best used against vehicles.

But if you want to get most bang out of your buck you take the autocannon deredeo.

He can't kill a Spartan but neither can the Arachnus so that is that.

 

Well, with 2 shots Str 10 AP2 and Exoshock, i would say, that even with Flareshield, the chances are not bad on killing a Spartan! ^^

Edit: but i'll sign on the Autocannon as the best overall weapon for the points, that thing rocks!


Edited by MichaelCarmine, 14 October 2021 - 10:49 AM.

Death Korps of Krieg
Horus Heresy: Raven Guard, Vlka Fenryka, Imperial Guard/Militia
Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#11
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

 

 

When I do mathhammer, I judge a unit on the basis of its average damage per point it costs output against a "basket" of likely targets (a bit like economists use a selected "basket" of certain goods to measure inflation).* I use GEQ, MEQ, GravEQ (gavis equivalent), TEQ< VEQ and KEQ. The 8th edition mathhammer wesbite and the app are just fine (app is better). I enter it into a spreadsheet and voila, you get your answer. 

 

I'll see if I can dig it up, but I think I compared various load-outs of Deredeo against the contemptor dreadnought a while back, and I think it came out OK (despite not being core) on that comparison, on that basket of targets.  

 

* Yes, target selection is a critical skill in 40k. You don't shoot pistols at knights. You don't send thunder hammers against guards etc.

 

That said, whilst it is unlikely that you would ever shoot a Arachnus heavy lascannon battery at a marine, or a las-cannon tactical marine at a lone genestealer, stranger things can happen. That marine or genestealer might be holding an objective, nothing else is in range and if it dies you deny your opponent VP etc.

 

This is why I do mathhammer on a 'basket' basis. If you think you will never, ever shoot a Deredeo or Contempor at squishy targets, change the basket, or weight them less. Take out the GEQ and MEQ, maybe even the TEQ. Maybe throw in a dreadnought and dark raider equivalent stat-lines. Either way, in my experience the basket approach to mathhammer gives you a great feel for what the unit can do in a range of situations, rather than just against a handful of very specific profiles which you may or may not come up against regularly (or, even if you do, might not be targatble for a turn or two). 

It's safe to assume, that a dedicated anti tank dreadnought like the Arachnus is best used against vehicles.

But if you want to get most bang out of your buck you take the autocannon deredeo.

He can't kill a Spartan but neither can the Arachnus so that is that.

 

Well, with 2 shots Str 10 AP2 and Exoshock, i would say, that even with Flareshield, the chances are not bad on killing a Spartan! ^^

Edit: but i'll sign on the Autocannon as the best overall weapon for the points, that thing rocks!

 

 

Here you are:

It totally depends on what you want it to shoot at. Like specifically, because flare shields and armour and potential jink are all variables.

For a spartan, you just can't hurt it with the autos in the front so in that sense, the las is better. But it only has a 28% chance to do one pen and a 14% to do two via exoshock; even with both pens it's a 9.5% of explodes. So it's terrible if you're bringing it to deal with Spartans.

msn-wink.gif


  • XeonDragon likes this
Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#12
MichaelCarmine

MichaelCarmine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Karlsruhe, Germany

 

 

 

When I do mathhammer, I judge a unit on the basis of its average damage per point it costs output against a "basket" of likely targets (a bit like economists use a selected "basket" of certain goods to measure inflation).* I use GEQ, MEQ, GravEQ (gavis equivalent), TEQ< VEQ and KEQ. The 8th edition mathhammer wesbite and the app are just fine (app is better). I enter it into a spreadsheet and voila, you get your answer. 

 

I'll see if I can dig it up, but I think I compared various load-outs of Deredeo against the contemptor dreadnought a while back, and I think it came out OK (despite not being core) on that comparison, on that basket of targets.  

 

* Yes, target selection is a critical skill in 40k. You don't shoot pistols at knights. You don't send thunder hammers against guards etc.

 

That said, whilst it is unlikely that you would ever shoot a Arachnus heavy lascannon battery at a marine, or a las-cannon tactical marine at a lone genestealer, stranger things can happen. That marine or genestealer might be holding an objective, nothing else is in range and if it dies you deny your opponent VP etc.

 

This is why I do mathhammer on a 'basket' basis. If you think you will never, ever shoot a Deredeo or Contempor at squishy targets, change the basket, or weight them less. Take out the GEQ and MEQ, maybe even the TEQ. Maybe throw in a dreadnought and dark raider equivalent stat-lines. Either way, in my experience the basket approach to mathhammer gives you a great feel for what the unit can do in a range of situations, rather than just against a handful of very specific profiles which you may or may not come up against regularly (or, even if you do, might not be targatble for a turn or two). 

It's safe to assume, that a dedicated anti tank dreadnought like the Arachnus is best used against vehicles.

But if you want to get most bang out of your buck you take the autocannon deredeo.

He can't kill a Spartan but neither can the Arachnus so that is that.

 

Well, with 2 shots Str 10 AP2 and Exoshock, i would say, that even with Flareshield, the chances are not bad on killing a Spartan! ^^

Edit: but i'll sign on the Autocannon as the best overall weapon for the points, that thing rocks!

 

 

Here you are:

It totally depends on what you want it to shoot at. Like specifically, because flare shields and armour and potential jink are all variables.

For a spartan, you just can't hurt it with the autos in the front so in that sense, the las is better. But it only has a 28% chance to do one pen and a 14% to do two via exoshock; even with both pens it's a 9.5% of explodes. So it's terrible if you're bringing it to deal with Spartans.

msn-wink.gif

 

Yeah, thats not bad, thats all i said. =]

Its not as good as a Melta bomb, that's for sure, but what really is? xD

This Weapon atleast gives you a chance at an additional pen(without a cover save) and therefore two chances per pen to kill/cripple it.

Edit: If you say, the Arachnus is terrible for handling that, then everything outside of 5 Haywire, Str 10 barrage and High str Armorbane is. ^^'


Edited by MichaelCarmine, 14 October 2021 - 02:14 PM.

Death Korps of Krieg
Horus Heresy: Raven Guard, Vlka Fenryka, Imperial Guard/Militia
Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#13
Slips

Slips

    ++ ARCHIMAGIRUS RUDIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 14,298 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec, Canada
  • Faction: V,VII,IX,XII,XV Legions

I mean, kinda yeah. You realistically want to deal with Spartans in as few shooting attacks as possible so that the contents are spewed out and available to be shot at since thats whats actually scary not so much the spartan itself.

 

Its why Lightnings with 4 Kraken Penetrator Missiles* are still brought to deal with Spartans since its basically 4 Ranged Meltabombs youre shooting at BS5 with (ground tracking auguries) to give you very good odds of dealing with it in 1 shooting round then basically ignoring the Lightning for the rest of the game/not caring if it dies or not.

 

Its what gives dual fist w/ grav box dreads in pods a niche since theyre cheaper than an equivalent Contemptor version. Take 2 of those and you have 4 Haywire shots you can drop wherever if you made sure to have 3 pods in the list so 2 come in T1.

 

 

*because its a flyer and can have a pretty easy time getting side armor shots when it comes onto the table.


Edited by Slips, 14 October 2021 - 03:03 PM.

  • Brofist and Gorgoff like this

Posted ImagePosted Image Posted Image

++Part of the ship...Part of the Crew++

+] Use the Report Button! [+


#14
MichaelCarmine

MichaelCarmine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Karlsruhe, Germany

I mean, kinda yeah. You realistically want to deal with Spartans in as few shooting attacks as possible so that the contents are spewed out and available to be shot at since thats whats actually scary not so much the spartan itself.

 

Its why Lightnings with 4 Kraken Penetrator Missiles* are still brought to deal with Spartans since its basically 4 Ranged Meltabombs youre shooting at BS5 with (ground tracking auguries) to give you very good odds of dealing with it in 1 shooting round then basically ignoring the Lightning for the rest of the game/not caring if it dies or not.

 

Its what gives dual fist w/ grav box dreads in pods a niche since theyre cheaper than an equivalent Contemptor version. Take 2 of those and you have 4 Haywire shots you can drop wherever if you made sure to have 3 pods in the list so 2 come in T1.

 

 

*because its a flyer and can have a pretty easy time getting side armor shots when it comes onto the table.

Don't get me wrong, i would never field one with Arachnus, except maybe in a big team batte with knights and Titans involved. xD

But i'm not betting all on a jet - which comes on the table turn 2 at best, or 2 to 3 dropping dreads which cost way more then the spartan and also cost me 2 to 3 Elite-Slots!

If we are searching for a  effective weapon against a Spartan, a simple assault squad with meltabombs is all one needs and often gives you the Opportunity to first turn delete it if it drives up your way!

 

Otherwise, the Arachnus-Deredeo can fill the role of a decent anti-armor weapon with a "not that bad" chance of killing a spartan. =]

Edit: or let's say -  i don't know of one player who would just drive his spartan recklessly in the firingarc of such a wapon. I wouldn't!


Edited by MichaelCarmine, 14 October 2021 - 03:35 PM.

  • Marshal Vespasian likes this
Death Korps of Krieg
Horus Heresy: Raven Guard, Vlka Fenryka, Imperial Guard/Militia
Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#15
SkimaskMohawk

SkimaskMohawk

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,801 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
  • Faction: Raven Guard and VIII Legion
Idk what math you use where a 28% chance to do 1/5th of the hull points isnt bad; you need an average of 18 rounds of shooting to hull point it. And before you say it, you have a 4.7% chance of exploding a spartan in the front, which would be 21 rounds of shooting. That's 3 full games of shooting before you can explode it. And if there's cover, that chance just gets slashed.

I'd drive my spartan straight at it every game with those odds.

Also I'm not sure what xeondragon is doing with references to gravis, genestealers, Raiders or core. This ain't 40k; the average target is much more defined and the math is completely different.
  • Gorgoff likes this

#16
XeonDragon

XeonDragon

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 283 posts

Sorry, in a very sleep-deprived state I completely forgot this was HH/30K. My apologies. 


  • SkimaskMohawk likes this

#17
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

Sorry, in a very sleep-deprived state I completely forgot this was HH/30K. My apologies. 

Haha I was wondering what the heck you want to say as well. That's why I didn't say anything to it because I thought you will post again and start explaining. biggrin.png

 

 

 

I mean, kinda yeah. You realistically want to deal with Spartans in as few shooting attacks as possible so that the contents are spewed out and available to be shot at since thats whats actually scary not so much the spartan itself.

 

Its why Lightnings with 4 Kraken Penetrator Missiles* are still brought to deal with Spartans since its basically 4 Ranged Meltabombs youre shooting at BS5 with (ground tracking auguries) to give you very good odds of dealing with it in 1 shooting round then basically ignoring the Lightning for the rest of the game/not caring if it dies or not.

 

Its what gives dual fist w/ grav box dreads in pods a niche since theyre cheaper than an equivalent Contemptor version. Take 2 of those and you have 4 Haywire shots you can drop wherever if you made sure to have 3 pods in the list so 2 come in T1.

 

 

*because its a flyer and can have a pretty easy time getting side armor shots when it comes onto the table.

Don't get me wrong, i would never field one with Arachnus, except maybe in a big team batte with knights and Titans involved. xD

But i'm not betting all on a jet - which comes on the table turn 2 at best, or 2 to 3 dropping dreads which cost way more then the spartan and also cost me 2 to 3 Elite-Slots!

If we are searching for a  effective weapon against a Spartan, a simple assault squad with meltabombs is all one needs and often gives you the Opportunity to first turn delete it if it drives up your way!

 

Otherwise, the Arachnus-Deredeo can fill the role of a decent anti-armor weapon with a "not that bad" chance of killing a spartan. =]

Edit: or let's say -  i don't know of one player who would just drive his spartan recklessly in the firingarc of such a wapon. I wouldn't!

 

But you do know someone who drives straight into your assault squad, which for you is way more valuable.  yes.gif

 

Idk what math you use where a 28% chance to do 1/5th of the hull points isnt bad; you need an average of 18 rounds of shooting to hull point it. And before you say it, you have a 4.7% chance of exploding a spartan in the front, which would be 21 rounds of shooting. That's 3 full games of shooting before you can explode it. And if there's cover, that chance just gets slashed.

I'd drive my spartan straight at it every game with those odds.

I think there are quite some players who really let themselves scare of from this Deredeo or some other stuff.

I've seen such thing happening, but I won't think twice about it either.

Funny enough they don't think twice about really dangerous units in the game.

It's weird but I'll explain these kind of things to them when they happen.

After that most player very fast learns what is what and the games become more appealing for both sides.

 

 

 

But i'm not betting all on a jet - which comes on the table turn 2 at best, or 2 to 3 dropping dreads which cost way more then the spartan and also cost me 2 to 3 Elite-Slots!

It's always about what is lurking inside the spartan and if 400 points are the price to get to it, well, I'll pay.


  • XeonDragon likes this
Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#18
Slips

Slips

    ++ ARCHIMAGIRUS RUDIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 14,298 posts
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec, Canada
  • Faction: V,VII,IX,XII,XV Legions

Yeah, to me, investing >450 points to take out a Spartan (360+) and seriously impede the unit its carryings effectiveness (400+ usually) then thats generally a pretty good investment.


  • Gorgoff likes this

Posted ImagePosted Image Posted Image

++Part of the ship...Part of the Crew++

+] Use the Report Button! [+


#19
MichaelCarmine

MichaelCarmine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Karlsruhe, Germany

Idk what math you use where a 28% chance to do 1/5th of the hull points isnt bad; you need an average of 18 rounds of shooting to hull point it. And before you say it, you have a 4.7% chance of exploding a spartan in the front, which would be 21 rounds of shooting. That's 3 full games of shooting before you can explode it. And if there's cover, that chance just gets slashed.

I'd drive my spartan straight at it every game with those odds.

Also I'm not sure what xeondragon is doing with references to gravis, genestealers, Raiders or core. This ain't 40k; the average target is much more defined and the math is completely different.

First off - i know that this thread asked about mathhammer and i didn't deliver, simply because i do not speak that language and do not care for it to choose, what i'm gonna field in my Armies, but that's just me ^^

But what some of you should start to consider, is that (at least in my playgroup) alot of players use the official FW-dice and they tend to throw alot more 6s than normal dice, simply because of the off-balance, i assume.

So that alone makes this average percentage obsolete, because i does not translate to the actual table. I'f seen alot of spartans explode or simply get disabled alot more often than mathhammer would dictate for that amount of defence-mechanisms.

 

I do agree with you, that if i need something to open a Spartan, i wouldn't choose a Deredeo, as statet in my previous post! ^^

I know, that that's not, what you're looking in this thread, just sayin' =]

 

Greetings,

Michael


Death Korps of Krieg
Horus Heresy: Raven Guard, Vlka Fenryka, Imperial Guard/Militia
Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#20
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

 

Idk what math you use where a 28% chance to do 1/5th of the hull points isnt bad; you need an average of 18 rounds of shooting to hull point it. And before you say it, you have a 4.7% chance of exploding a spartan in the front, which would be 21 rounds of shooting. That's 3 full games of shooting before you can explode it. And if there's cover, that chance just gets slashed.

I'd drive my spartan straight at it every game with those odds.

Also I'm not sure what xeondragon is doing with references to gravis, genestealers, Raiders or core. This ain't 40k; the average target is much more defined and the math is completely different.

First off - i know that this thread asked about mathhammer and i didn't deliver, simply because i do not speak that language and do not care for it to choose, what i'm gonna field in my Armies, but that's just me ^^

But what some of you should start to consider, is that (at least in my playgroup) alot of players use the official FW-dice and they tend to throw alot more 6s than normal dice, simply because of the off-balance, i assume.

So that alone makes this average percentage obsolete, because i does not translate to the actual table. I'f seen alot of spartans explode or simply get disabled alot more often than mathhammer would dictate for that amount of defence-mechanisms.

 

I do agree with you, that if i need something to open a Spartan, i wouldn't choose a Deredeo, as statet in my previous post! ^^

I know, that that's not, what you're looking in this thread, just sayin' =]

 

Greetings,

Michael

 

That's because you like most other players tend to remember the times whenever one of these huge tank blows up, because that is a tipping point in almost every battle, but don't remember the thousands of shoots pinging of with no effect. It's called selective perception and is absolutely normal behavior.

Happens to me, happens to you, happens to everyone.


Edited by Gorgoff, 15 October 2021 - 09:39 AM.

  • MichaelCarmine likes this
Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#21
MichaelCarmine

MichaelCarmine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Karlsruhe, Germany

 

Sorry, in a very sleep-deprived state I completely forgot this was HH/30K. My apologies. 

Haha I was wondering what the heck you want to say as well. That's why I didn't say anything to it because I thought you will post again and start explaining. biggrin.png

 

 

 

I mean, kinda yeah. You realistically want to deal with Spartans in as few shooting attacks as possible so that the contents are spewed out and available to be shot at since thats whats actually scary not so much the spartan itself.

 

Its why Lightnings with 4 Kraken Penetrator Missiles* are still brought to deal with Spartans since its basically 4 Ranged Meltabombs youre shooting at BS5 with (ground tracking auguries) to give you very good odds of dealing with it in 1 shooting round then basically ignoring the Lightning for the rest of the game/not caring if it dies or not.

 

Its what gives dual fist w/ grav box dreads in pods a niche since theyre cheaper than an equivalent Contemptor version. Take 2 of those and you have 4 Haywire shots you can drop wherever if you made sure to have 3 pods in the list so 2 come in T1.

 

 

*because its a flyer and can have a pretty easy time getting side armor shots when it comes onto the table.

Don't get me wrong, i would never field one with Arachnus, except maybe in a big team batte with knights and Titans involved. xD

But i'm not betting all on a jet - which comes on the table turn 2 at best, or 2 to 3 dropping dreads which cost way more then the spartan and also cost me 2 to 3 Elite-Slots!

If we are searching for a  effective weapon against a Spartan, a simple assault squad with meltabombs is all one needs and often gives you the Opportunity to first turn delete it if it drives up your way!

 

Otherwise, the Arachnus-Deredeo can fill the role of a decent anti-armor weapon with a "not that bad" chance of killing a spartan. =]

Edit: or let's say -  i don't know of one player who would just drive his spartan recklessly in the firingarc of such a wapon. I wouldn't!

 

But you do know someone who drives straight into your assault squad, which for you is way more valuable.  yes.gif

 

Idk what math you use where a 28% chance to do 1/5th of the hull points isnt bad; you need an average of 18 rounds of shooting to hull point it. And before you say it, you have a 4.7% chance of exploding a spartan in the front, which would be 21 rounds of shooting. That's 3 full games of shooting before you can explode it. And if there's cover, that chance just gets slashed.

I'd drive my spartan straight at it every game with those odds.

I think there are quite some players who really let themselves scare of from this Deredeo or some other stuff.

I've seen such thing happening, but I won't think twice about it either.

Funny enough they don't think twice about really dangerous units in the game.

It's weird but I'll explain these kind of things to them when they happen.

After that most player very fast learns what is what and the games become more appealing for both sides.

 

 

 

But i'm not betting all on a jet - which comes on the table turn 2 at best, or 2 to 3 dropping dreads which cost way more then the spartan and also cost me 2 to 3 Elite-Slots!

It's always about what is lurking inside the spartan and if 400 points are the price to get to it, well, I'll pay.

 

Well, with an average 19 inch threat range (movement+charge), going out of an assault squads way is not really an option xD

 

well, i think you would fare much better with just a duo of medusas (deleting the flareshield and cover bonus) for less points than spending 2-3 elite slots for 2-3 dreads who also are no guarantee to open that spartan in the turn they drop. ^^ but thats a discussion for another thread, i think... 


Death Korps of Krieg
Horus Heresy: Raven Guard, Vlka Fenryka, Imperial Guard/Militia
Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#22
MichaelCarmine

MichaelCarmine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 73 posts
  • Location:Karlsruhe, Germany

 

 

Idk what math you use where a 28% chance to do 1/5th of the hull points isnt bad; you need an average of 18 rounds of shooting to hull point it. And before you say it, you have a 4.7% chance of exploding a spartan in the front, which would be 21 rounds of shooting. That's 3 full games of shooting before you can explode it. And if there's cover, that chance just gets slashed.

I'd drive my spartan straight at it every game with those odds.

Also I'm not sure what xeondragon is doing with references to gravis, genestealers, Raiders or core. This ain't 40k; the average target is much more defined and the math is completely different.

First off - i know that this thread asked about mathhammer and i didn't deliver, simply because i do not speak that language and do not care for it to choose, what i'm gonna field in my Armies, but that's just me ^^

But what some of you should start to consider, is that (at least in my playgroup) alot of players use the official FW-dice and they tend to throw alot more 6s than normal dice, simply because of the off-balance, i assume.

So that alone makes this average percentage obsolete, because i does not translate to the actual table. I'f seen alot of spartans explode or simply get disabled alot more often than mathhammer would dictate for that amount of defence-mechanisms.

 

I do agree with you, that if i need something to open a Spartan, i wouldn't choose a Deredeo, as statet in my previous post! ^^

I know, that that's not, what you're looking in this thread, just sayin' =]

 

Greetings,

Michael

 

That's because you like most other players tend to remember the times whenever one of these huge tank blows up, because that is a tipping point in almost every battle, but don't remember the thousands of shoots pinging of with no effect. It's called selective perception and is absolutely normal behavior.

Happens to me, happens to you, happens to everyone.

 

Well that's the thing, i remember it, because it doesn't take that many shots! xD its a dicegame after all and one can mathhammer all he wants, but in reality, it does not hold up. But yeah, maybe thats just my experience...


Edited by MichaelCarmine, 15 October 2021 - 10:41 AM.

Death Korps of Krieg
Horus Heresy: Raven Guard, Vlka Fenryka, Imperial Guard/Militia
Warhammer 40.000: Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard (Death Korps of Krieg & Tanith First and Only)
Anima Tactics: Wissenschaft, Empire, Azur Alliance, Church, Samael
 

 

 

 

 

 


#23
Gorgoff

Gorgoff

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,472 posts
  • Location:Germany, Osnabrueck
  • Faction: IVth Legion

Well that's the thing, i remember it, because it doesn't take that many shots! xD its a dicegame after all and one can mathhammer all he wants, but in reality, it does not hold up. But yeah, maybe thats just my experience...

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many games have you made in HH?

100?

200?

How many times did an Arachnus blow up a Spartan on it's own?

Obviously you are right about the game being a dicegame, but in the grand scheme of things anecdotes are just that. I can only remember one time a Spartan exploded in the shooting phase, which doesn't mean anything either. Most of the time they die by a combination of things which strip down it's hullpoints.

That way I kill most tanks by the way. It is way more reliable than bet your money on two shots with high strength per turn. Killing one Deredeo is comparable easy anyway so it takes not much for your opponent to eliminate this threat for his precious Spartan.

 

 

Well, with an average 19 inch threat range (movement+charge), going out of an assault squads way is not really an option xD

It's always about what is lurking inside the spartan and if 400 points are the price to get to it, well, I'll pay.

 

 

But i'm not betting all on a jet - which comes on the table turn 2 at best, or 2 to 3 dropping dreads which cost way more then the spartan and also cost me 2 to 3 Elite-Slots!

 

 

 

To be honest killing of a unit of assault marines is easy as well.

They're just marines and they die as easily.

Don't get me wrong:

CC is a very reliable way of killing tank and assault squads with MB are obviously very good for that, but most people know that and kill them off quickly.

 

well, i think you would fare much better with just a duo of medusas (deleting the flareshield and cover bonus) for less points than spending 2-3 elite slots for 2-3 dreads who also are no guarantee to open that spartan in the turn they drop. ^^ but thats a discussion for another thread, i think... 

 

Well, two Medusas are not a viable way of killing a Spartan.

Two shots S10 most of the time just damage it and don't kill or immobilise it.

And besides barrage doesn't ignore cover if that is what you wanted to say.

Maybe you where just talking about cover between the Medusas and the Spartan which is right, of course.

But in the end we see there are different ways of destroying tanks which is great. It makes the game more exciting and fun.

Three grav cannons are even better to kill a tank and even cheaper then all three options we discussed for example.


Edited by Gorgoff, 15 October 2021 - 11:10 AM.

Bring back Psycho Dad!
gallery_48988_10980_12646.png

#24
SkimaskMohawk

SkimaskMohawk

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,801 posts
  • Location:Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
  • Faction: Raven Guard and VIII Legion
@michaelcarmine I'm pretty sure the dice are all properly milled. When the deathguard got those plastic dice with foam centers, people did thousands of tests on them just to show that they actually do average the same as normal dice. Rolling 6 6s in a row is unlikely, but completely possible; I've had some absurd luck in both directions with the same dice set. There's also the fact that people tend to remember the negatives far more than the positives, and I play people who do that for events in the same game*.

But getting back to averages and using math appropriately. You don't use it to say "the math worked out to X hull points, but I got Y so I should have taken something else". Instead, you use it to give an understanding of potential results; if you want strict anti tank, then you use the math to see what to expect and maybe compare it to other options for the same points. Or maybe use some principles to drive decision making in game like weight of fire vs fewer, but slightly stronger shots. You can't beat luck, but you can be informed on how likely stuff is to happen.

As an example, if we're going on the premise that the las deredeo "isn't that bad" at anti spartan duty, then why not take javelins instead? You can get 3 with two linked las for 195 and can easily get side arc for better results due to the higher shot count and twin linked nature.

There's a lot of tools in the box and the math helps compare them for the job at hand.

#25
Gattopardo

Gattopardo

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 98 posts
As the owner of an (as yet not fielded) Deredeo with both the autocannons and the Arachnus lascannons as weapon options (magnetised, so I'll be able to swap easily) I'm interested in the tradeoffs here. Clearly the autocannons can't scratch a Spartan from the front, but the lascannons aren't really a good option here either. I could see the lascannons being quite brutal against medium armour. Hitting a Sicaran with two strength 10 shots with Exoshock is quite nasty, for example. The problem is that the autocannons are also very effective against that sort of target, with four twin linked shots with Sunder, and cost 50 points less. So I'm struggling to see a role where the lascannons are the better choice,to be honest. Obviously the lascannons are AP2 so cut through marines' armour saves, but with only two non- twin linked shots it's hard to get excited about that, and the autocannons will be better against Mechanicum and Daemons (I think?) due to the higher number of shots and twin linked.

Two Deredeos with autocannons and Boreas air defence missiles look like a very efficient choice to me. You can fire 8 missiles into the side armour of a high priority target first turn to hopefully eliminate it, and then have the autocannons pumping lots of rerollable shots into light and medium armour for the rest of the game.

Edited by Gattopardo, 15 October 2021 - 03:51 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users