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Deredeo Mathhammer Request


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#26
Marshal Vespasian

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So does no one rate Plasma cannons? I lile that they look cool and being plasma I'd expect them to work vs medium vehicles as well as terminators.

Edited by Marshal Vespasian, 15 October 2021 - 09:10 PM.

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#27
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The plasma is actually pretty good, but it's also +25pts and competing against the really good autocannons. So generally, sticking with the stock guns is a better way to go.

200+ pts with plasma also compares it with things like heavy weapon squads, plasma preads, medusas, bombards, etc. These cost less and sling out comparable firepower though obviously they are not direct comparisons. Bottom line, for some lists its totally viable.

Edited by Brofist, 16 October 2021 - 09:30 PM.

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#28
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I agree with Brofist. The only reason I've not considered the plasmas is that I don't actually own them, so I did go take a look and I could see them working well. Very useful against heavy infantry and able to do a number on light or medium armour too.

So the plasmas are arguably a better all round option than the autocannons, as the autocannons won't do much against marines. However the problem is that the plasmas cost more and aren't as good against medium armour where the autocannons are just incredibly efficient. Also, while the autocannons won't do much against power or terminator armour they will be effective against Mechanicum and Daemons, which is useful if you don't know what you're going to face. I think the plasmas could be a good option in some lists though, depending on what the rest of your army is equipped with.
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#29
MichaelCarmine

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Well that's the thing, i remember it, because it doesn't take that many shots! xD its a dicegame after all and one can mathhammer all he wants, but in reality, it does not hold up. But yeah, maybe thats just my experience...

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many games have you made in HH?

100?

200?

How many times did an Arachnus blow up a Spartan on it's own?

a little above 100 i would say.

and actually at an event last month, 2 games in a row ^^. There were two Salamanders-Players, both with arachnus deredeos, one blew up a spartan first shot in the first turn, stopping the SW Player in its Tracks and the other in the second turn, but only shooting on it with the Deredeo in both turns.

and about a month ago, a game of mine against a friends SoH, Arachnus Deredeo blew up my Spartan first turn. 

But as i said before, that might just be my experience =] 

I myself would also never use a Deredeo simply for the point of dealing with a Spartan, as i said before.

But do not underestimate the Deredeo, when it has a line of fire with those things... that's all i'm saying. xD

 

@SkimaskMohawk

 

I'm not so sure about that, i've seen them roll ridiculous stuff over the last Year... to the point where i'm a little ashamed to use my RG and Wolves-Dice... 


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#30
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So what you're saying is that 3 las-javelins are even better spartan hunters lol.

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#31
Gorgoff

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Well that's the thing, i remember it, because it doesn't take that many shots! xD its a dicegame after all and one can mathhammer all he wants, but in reality, it does not hold up. But yeah, maybe thats just my experience...

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many games have you made in HH?

100?

200?

How many times did an Arachnus blow up a Spartan on it's own?

a little above 100 i would say.

and actually at an event last month, 2 games in a row ^^. There were two Salamanders-Players, both with arachnus deredeos, one blew up a spartan first shot in the first turn, stopping the SW Player in its Tracks and the other in the second turn, but only shooting on it with the Deredeo in both turns.

and about a month ago, a game of mine against a friends SoH, Arachnus Deredeo blew up my Spartan first turn. 

But as i said before, that might just be my experience =] 

 

Sheer luck, that's what it is.

It happens but... not often.

Maybe your opponents have one "schpecual" dice for roles on the table whistling.gif


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#32
MichaelCarmine

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So what you're saying is that 3 las-javelins are even better spartan hunters lol.

where did you get that from? xD

nah, they are to easily forced to jink, whereas the Deredeo has his inbuilt 5+... also lascannons lack the higher str. (some people forget, that given the deployment, even a spartan can be hit in the side by a deredeo) and possible 2nd Pen per Pen ^^

IF i had to kit javelins out for Spartan hunting (wich no sane man would do) i would just go with the general T-Hunting loadout -  MM, TL CML, 2 Hunter Killers and try glancing him to death with 15 shots str 8 on arrival and 9 every turn after...


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#33
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So what you're saying is that 3 las-javelins are even better spartan hunters lol.

where did you get that from? xD

nah, they are to easily forced to jink, whereas the Deredeo has his inbuilt 5+... also lascannons lack the higher str. (some people forget, that given the deployment, even a spartan can be hit in the side by a deredeo) and possible 2nd Pen per Pen ^^

IF i had to kit javelins out for Spartan hunting (wich no sane man would do) i would just go with the general T-Hunting loadout -  MM, TL CML, 2 Hunter Killers and try glancing him to death with 15 shots str 8 on arrival and 9 every turn after...

 

 

Because 3 with las is 195 and with their speed can easily hit side, resulting in better hull point (0.49 vs 0.42) and explodes (0.08 vs 0.07) potential even with exoshock added in there. Low stature and split twinlinked-weapons means you can abuse terrain for a 4+ without jink. They're objectively better at killing spartans than the "not bad at it" deredeo and you should always watch out for them if you already don't want to drive at an arachnus with a spartan.  


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#34
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So what you're saying is that 3 las-javelins are even better spartan hunters lol.

where did you get that from? xD

nah, they are to easily forced to jink, whereas the Deredeo has his inbuilt 5+... also lascannons lack the higher str. (some people forget, that given the deployment, even a spartan can be hit in the side by a deredeo) and possible 2nd Pen per Pen ^^

IF i had to kit javelins out for Spartan hunting (wich no sane man would do) i would just go with the general T-Hunting loadout -  MM, TL CML, 2 Hunter Killers and try glancing him to death with 15 shots str 8 on arrival and 9 every turn after...

 

 

Because 3 with las is 195 and with their speed can easily hit side, resulting in better hull point (0.49 vs 0.42) and explodes (0.08 vs 0.07) potential even with exoshock added in there. Low stature and split twinlinked-weapons means you can abuse terrain for a 4+ without jink. They're objectively better at killing spartans than the "not bad at it" deredeo and you should always watch out for them if you already don't want to drive at an arachnus with a spartan.  

 

I mean.... I totally get it why he is afraid of driving towards it to be honest, if that is what happens in his playgroup biggrin.png


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#35
MichaelCarmine

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So what you're saying is that 3 las-javelins are even better spartan hunters lol.

where did you get that from? xD

nah, they are to easily forced to jink, whereas the Deredeo has his inbuilt 5+... also lascannons lack the higher str. (some people forget, that given the deployment, even a spartan can be hit in the side by a deredeo) and possible 2nd Pen per Pen ^^

IF i had to kit javelins out for Spartan hunting (wich no sane man would do) i would just go with the general T-Hunting loadout -  MM, TL CML, 2 Hunter Killers and try glancing him to death with 15 shots str 8 on arrival and 9 every turn after...

 

 

Because 3 with las is 195 and with their speed can easily hit side, resulting in better hull point (0.49 vs 0.42) and explodes (0.08 vs 0.07) potential even with exoshock added in there. Low stature and split twinlinked-weapons means you can abuse terrain for a 4+ without jink. They're objectively better at killing spartans than the "not bad at it" deredeo and you should always watch out for them if you already don't want to drive at an arachnus with a spartan.  

 

It seems to me, that you are constantly assuming, that i would run a arachnus against a spartan and therefore pinning me on my statement, that Arachnus-Deredeos are not that bad at killing spartans - whereas i stated multiple times, that i would never run one to counter a Spartan. ^^

 

But yes, i do watch out on anything, that can destroy my most expensive unit on the field with one shot. It just needs two sixes in a row with (possibly) multiple dice. =]

 

But when you say, that they (Javelins) are better in dealing with a spartan, because of 0.01 better percentage of exploding a Spartan, then you have your answer - and i do not know, why you are asking me such a thing... xD


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#36
MichaelCarmine

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I mean.... I totally get it why he is afraid of driving towards it to be honest, if that is what happens in his playgroup biggrin.png

 

 

Well, not affraid, but definitly carefull.

Depends on what i play - with Raven Guard? Not a problem, that thing is useless after my first Turn... also, i don't use a Spartan wih them. With Wolves? yeah, definitely, but given that it scouts before the first Turn, i am already in better position if it should get blown up. ^^'


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#37
SkimaskMohawk

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So what you're saying is that 3 las-javelins are even better spartan hunters lol.

where did you get that from? xD

nah, they are to easily forced to jink, whereas the Deredeo has his inbuilt 5+... also lascannons lack the higher str. (some people forget, that given the deployment, even a spartan can be hit in the side by a deredeo) and possible 2nd Pen per Pen ^^

IF i had to kit javelins out for Spartan hunting (wich no sane man would do) i would just go with the general T-Hunting loadout -  MM, TL CML, 2 Hunter Killers and try glancing him to death with 15 shots str 8 on arrival and 9 every turn after...

 

 

Because 3 with las is 195 and with their speed can easily hit side, resulting in better hull point (0.49 vs 0.42) and explodes (0.08 vs 0.07) potential even with exoshock added in there. Low stature and split twinlinked-weapons means you can abuse terrain for a 4+ without jink. They're objectively better at killing spartans than the "not bad at it" deredeo and you should always watch out for them if you already don't want to drive at an arachnus with a spartan.  

 

It seems to me, that you are constantly assuming, that i would run a arachnus against a spartan and therefore pinning me on my statement, that Arachnus-Deredeos are not that bad at killing spartans - whereas i stated multiple times, that i would never run one to counter a Spartan. ^^

 

But yes, i do watch out on anything, that can destroy my most expensive unit on the field with one shot. It just needs two sixes in a row with (possibly) multiple dice. =]

 

But when you say, that they (Javelins) are better in dealing with a spartan, because of 0.01 better percentage of exploding a Spartan, then you have your answer - and i do not know, why you are asking me such a thing... xD

 

 

I'm not assuming anything. Im poking fun at these statements:

 

 

 

Well, with 2 shots Str 10 AP2 and Exoshock, i would say, that even with Flareshield, the chances are not bad on killing a Spartan! ^^


 

 

Otherwise, the Arachnus-Deredeo can fill the role of a decent anti-armor weapon with a "not that bad" chance of killing a spartan. =]

Edit: or let's say -  i don't know of one player who would just drive his spartan recklessly in the firingarc of such a wapon. I wouldn't!

 

 

 

 

 

Because we know that a) the chances are terrible and B) its actually pretty poor at anti tank. It's hard to justify telling anyone to take the arachnus from a rules point of view for anti tank, because it does so much more poorly than other dedicated anti-tank units in the heavy support, elite and fast attack slots. Saying "you never know about luck" isn't valid, because you can use the same argument for any weapon who's characteristics hit the threshold.  


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#38
Bung

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So, noone ever tried the Volkite guns?
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#39
Brofist

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For the points I don't rate the volkite very highly
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#40
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You take the Volkites for the Choom/Cool factor primarily.

 

If you want to Volkite Choom erase squads of lighter infantry youre honestly better off taking a 10 man culverin squad


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#41
MichaelCarmine

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Because we know that a) the chances are terrible and cool.png its actually pretty poor at anti tank. It's hard to justify telling anyone to take the arachnus from a rules point of view for anti tank, because it does so much more poorly than other dedicated anti-tank units in the heavy support, elite and fast attack slots. Saying "you never know about luck" isn't valid, because you can use the same argument for any weapon who's characteristics hit the threshold.  

 

 

And again - i never said, that anyone should select a Deredeo purely for anti-Tank... xD

I don't know, how you are getting at that again! 

His first role, of course, is that of an anti-air defense. And with the Arachnus, it is, together with the Autocannon, the only reliable ground based chance of downing an Assault Ram, i would assume.

After that, it can (as i previously stated) work as a decent threat to all armour (of course much more to anything outside of a Land-Raider/Spartan). Tell me - which other "dedicated" ground based anti-air can do that - or better, can get two vehicles in one round, thanks to boreas and independend tracking? I Mean, outside if a squad of Iron Havocs, of course xD

 

And i know, that i repeat myself - i would never choose one myself simply to deal with a Spartan!

Because i know, and have listed, much better weapons to deal with one,two,three... that i would choose myself. =]


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#42
Gorgoff

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What kills the Arachnus for me is the terrible optic.

Just looks not very good. The autocannons hit the sweet spot for me.

What a gun!

What a huge ammo belt!

BADADADADADADADADADADADADA

Awesome.


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#43
MichaelCarmine

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What kills the Arachnus for me is the terrible optic.

Just looks not very good. The autocannons hit the sweet spot for me.

What a gun!

What a huge ammo belt!

BADADADADADADADADADADADADA

Awesome.

THAT, i sign blindly!

That was the main reason, why i wanted one at first.... then i saw the rules... cool.png  thumbsup.gif


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#44
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So does no one rate Plasma cannons? I lile that they look cool and being plasma I'd expect them to work vs medium vehicles as well as terminators.

They are decent in 40k, ripped some people up in Crusade i played in earlier this year.  

 

That said: They would kick ass in ZM if the 80mm base was legal.  Add on a Automantic Pavaise stick your Fulmentarus Terminators in the bubble...



#45
Gorgoff

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So does no one rate Plasma cannons? I lile that they look cool and being plasma I'd expect them to work vs medium vehicles as well as terminators.

They are decent in 40k, ripped some people up in Crusade i played in earlier this year.

That said: They would kick ass in ZM if the 80mm base was legal. Add on a Automantic Pavaise stick your Fulmentarus Terminators in the bubble...
That's they reason why it is illegal. Nobody wants a Leviathan in a ZM.
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#46
Imren

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So to summarize the debate here, I think we can agree that:

  • Deredeo is not the optimum spartan killer in the game. For spartan killing you would rather assign a kraken penetrator equipped primaris lightning strike fighter or glance it to death with lots of S8 missiles/ S9 lascannon shots or sacrifice an highly mobile infantry squad with meltabombs at it.
  • The most suitable loadout out of the options for a deredeo to fight a spartan is the pair of arachnus lascannons.
  • You rather task the deredeo to fight medium armour land and air units with the autocannons (rule of cool) or the arachnus lascannons (rule of high S and low AP).

Edited by Imren, 01 November 2021 - 02:15 PM.


#47
SkimaskMohawk

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If you have side armour, the autocannons are still best against the spartan compared to the arachnus.

There's no "rule of cool" with the autocannons. They're mathematically better against every armoured target that they can damage than the arachnus.
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